Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?

[Brian2]

I use this advice
".. Say: O leaders of religion! Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring balance established amongst men. In this most perfect balance whatsoever the peoples and kindreds of the earth possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it.... "

Thus the Bible is weighed by itself, the Quran and the Baha'i Writings, they balance each other.

Regards Tony

Jesus is weighed on whether He fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies. Shouldn't Muhamad and the Bab and Baha'u'llah be judged on whether they fulfilled prophecies in the Bible?
Also if prophecies in the Bible are applied to Jesus in the New Testament should it not stay that way without Baha'u'llah wanting to take those same prophecies and apply them to himself---taking away their application to Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

It is strange that this correct answer was given by a non-bahai in this thread. I think just a few minutes before you, LOH gave the same answer.

Yes, you are right. This is the answer that Bahai's should give, and this is the truth. But the thing is, I have read Bahaullah's main work, not all and it is evident that it was not him predominantly the Bahai's use as this standard, but others. But still this is the only valid answer. Thanks.

Baha'is do not seem to acknowledge their denial of the Bible even when it is pointed out to them in excruciating detail. Their faith in Baha'u'llah seems to have blinded them to many things. I don't know why I keep wanting to point things out to them.

 

[Brian2]

I consider what the Bible says by the Standard the Quran has given.

Regards Tony

When Muhamad denies that Jesus was crucified, do you go along with the Quran or the gospel story? and is it because Baha'u'llah, Abdul and Shoghi have told you which story is true?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Rev 1:14-16 is seen to be about Jesus because of what is said in this verses:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
In Rev 2:18 the verse itself identifies this person as Jesus.
Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
With Rev 19:15 we also see Jesus identified in the surrounding scripture. The New Testament tells us that it is Jesus who is to judge the world and
Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Rev 15................................................................
He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords.

So you’re not expecting Christ to return?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Baha'is do not seem to acknowledge their denial of the Bible even when it is pointed out to them in excruciating detail. Their faith in Baha'u'llah seems to have blinded them to many things. I don't know why I keep wanting to point things out to them.

Maybe it’s not us who misunderstand the Book. Remember in the days of Jesus, those who claimed knowledge of the Torah put Jesus to death. They entirely misunderstood the prophecies didn’t they, and condemned to death the very Messiah they had been praying day and night to come?


These things have once again been repeated, I believe, in this day, with those who claim to know the Book, the very first to condemn Baha’u’llah of falsehood, as was in the days of Jesus.

 

[firedragon]

Remember in the days of Jesus, those who claimed knowledge of the Torah put Jesus to death.

Is that the Bahai teaching? Can you please quote me where this is taught by one of the Bahai authorities?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Why is the Quran used to correct the Bible and not the other way around?

It is more recent, was revealed in the lifetime of Muhammad not after His passing as with Jesus. Also the Quran was one revelation to one Prophet not many chapters written by different authors as was the Bible, some being ‘unknown authors’.

There is wisdom and truth in this.

How do you defend God commanding the killing of every man, woman, child, infant in 1 Samuel, 15:3?

Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.’”

The Quran on the other hand, forbids the killing of infants and innocents.

Records that far back, especially in light of the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’, how authentic can they be?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Is that the Bahai teaching? Can you please quote me where this is taught by one of the Bahai authorities?

From Baha’u’llah directly:

“Consider the Dispensation of Jesus Christ. Behold, how all the learned men of that generation, though eagerly anticipating the coming of the Promised One, have nevertheless denied Him. Both Annas, the most learned among the divines of His day, and Caiaphas, the high priest, denounced Him and pronounced the sentence of His death.” (Book of Certitude)

 

[loverofhumanity]

Jesus is weighed on whether He fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies. Shouldn't Muhamad and the Bab and Baha'u'llah be judged on whether they fulfilled prophecies in the Bible?
Also if prophecies in the Bible are applied to Jesus in the New Testament should it not stay that way without Baha'u'llah wanting to take those same prophecies and apply them to himself---taking away their application to Jesus.

Not really. How many people accepted Jesus who couldn’t read, write or even count? Were they wrong?

Jesus said : “The pure in heart shall see God” not the knowledgeable. The so called ‘knowledgeable’ Annas and Caiphas had Him put to death, while a simple fisherman accepted Him. A pure heart is more to God than a scripture degree.

Their knowledge made them proud and blinded their eyes to the truth of Christ.

 

[loverofhumanity]

When Muhamad denies that Jesus was crucified, do you go along with the Quran or the gospel story? and is it because Baha'u'llah, Abdul and Shoghi have told you which story is true?

Does not Christ live today in the hearts and minds? Did they really kill Him?

 

[firedragon]

From Baha’u’llah directly:

“Consider the Dispensation of Jesus Christ. Behold, how all the learned men of that generation, though eagerly anticipating the coming of the Promised One, have nevertheless denied Him. Both Annas, the most learned among the divines of His day, and Caiaphas, the high priest, denounced Him and pronounced the sentence of His death.” (Book of Certitude)

Which chapter is that please?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Which chapter is that please?

My mistake it’s in ‘Gleanings’ p 25-26
https://www.bahai.org/library/autho...lah/gleanings-writings-bahaullah.pdf?d5cbe80c
https://www.bahai.org/library/autho...lah/gleanings-writings-bahaullah.pdf?d5cbe80c

 

[firedragon]

My mistake it’s in ‘Gleanings’ p 25-26
https://www.bahai.org/library/autho...lah/gleanings-writings-bahaullah.pdf?d5cbe80c

I dont know about Gleanings page 25, but this is from chapter 35. Its alright. Everyone makes mistakes.

Anyway, which tablet did Effendi get this from? Please let me know.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It is more recent, was revealed in the lifetime of Muhammad not after His passing as with Jesus. Also the Quran was one revelation to one Prophet not many chapters written by different authors as was the Bible, some being ‘unknown authors’.

There is wisdom and truth in this.

How do you defend God commanding the killing of every man, woman, child, infant in 1 Samuel, 15:3?

Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.’”

The Quran on the other hand, forbids the killing of infants and innocents.

Records that far back, especially in light of the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’, how authentic can they be?

Is it possible that this killing is not physically killing? And sheeps, camels, infants are all symbols? Just a thought.
In the Quran also, there are many instances when a people did not obey God, He completely destroyed them by sending some disasters to them. When that happens all could be killed. But I remember Abdulbaha interpreted these, as spiritual death, that came to them, when they did not follow God's guidance.


Sahih International: Have they not seen how many generations We destroyed before them which We had established upon the earth as We have not established you? And We sent [rain from] the sky upon them in showers and made rivers flow beneath them; then We destroyed them for their sins and brought forth after them a generation of others.

Quran 6:6

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't think anything can surpass the law of love that Jesus left.
And really how can you think that you are a Christian if Baha'i abolishes the very gospel message that makes someone a Christian?

Christ can not die. The part of Jesus that lives is Christ and that is the Logos.

Jesus is not the only Man that has given us a Message from God via the Christ Spirit, that is How Jesus as Christ said I am the First and the Last, EVERY Messenger has said this. Since Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah have made the same statement of being all the Prophets.

The way to view the abrogation of scriptures is as progressive Revelation.

When we are schooled in this material. World we build on what we are taught in grade 1 until we finish schooling. The lessons are not forgotten, nor do they become invalid, they are just built upon.

Jesus said I have much more to say unto you and the Christ Spirit of Truth would. Guide us unto all Truth.

Muhammad came, told the Christains to do away with the Trinity and if Christianity had embraced Muhammad, the world would be a different place, but the Bible shows us God knew this and had the plan set. The fist Woe was Muhammad, the Second Woe was the Bab and the Third Woe to come Quickly was Baha'u'llah.

It stands up to the highest scrutiny, it is but a sight change in our frame of reference.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I have seen things in the Bible which refute and contradict the Baha'i view and parts which Baha'is say are false.

Can you tell me what things in the Bible refute and contradict the Baha'i view?

Can you tell me which parts of the Bible Baha'is say are false?
If you mean that there are certain things in the Bible that Baha'is do not believe are literally true/historically factual, Baha'is are not the only ones with that view, but it seems to me that Baha'is are often singled out as the only ones with that view, even though liberal Christians share the Baha'i view.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why is the Quran used to correct the Bible and not the other way around?

Muhammad came in the 600's. By that time Christianity had build the doctrine of the Trinity and this doctrine was to become the major cloud that Christ would return upon, that prevents a Christian from seeing the Glory of God, the Christ Spirit returned.

Muhammad taught us that Jesus was a Messenger, that it is unto the spirit given by our One God we turn and submit to. Muhammad said, "O People of the Scripture. do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God..." Note Muhammad says do not make Jesus, God and told us how the Spirit was the Word, it is the Holy Spirt which iscreated from God and by which Jesus was born.

The flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit which is Life.

It is a big topic, many tangents, all needing to be discussed.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jesus is weighed on whether He fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies. Shouldn't Muhamad and the Bab and Baha'u'llah be judged on whether they fulfilled prophecies in the Bible?
Also if prophecies in the Bible are applied to Jesus in the New Testament should it not stay that way without Baha'u'llah wanting to take those same prophecies and apply them to himself---taking away their application to Jesus.

Yes indeed and I see they are foretold in the Old and New Testament. Some of the prophecies used for Jesus actually are are better fit to the Bab and Baha'u'llah, Muhammad is foretold Daniel and Revelation, but most likely in many other places, once we accept He is, then this can be explored.

I see Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah do not take Prophecies from the Word, that Word was revealed for them, or more to the point, they are that Word.

For God there is no time, God knows all and thus the Word is written in that Light, God knows our choices and writes the Word in a way we get to make choices and shape the future.

We are in very perilous times, these times will be shortened, but we still have our choices, we can see we are one people on one planet with one God, a God who has given all people in all nations the guidance needed in preparing us for the day when we can become conscious of our oneness on a global scale.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When Muhamad denies that Jesus was crucified, do you go along with the Quran or the gospel story? and is it because Baha'u'llah, Abdul and Shoghi have told you which story is true?

I read both the Bible and Quran in the Light of the explanations given by the Baha'i Writings.

I see the Quran is saying that you can not Kill Jesus, not that he was not crucified. The full suffering of Jesus, to save us from our own selves is supported.

What you can not Kill is Christ, the Holy Spirit to which is the reality of the flesh body of Jesus. Remember Jesus said the flesh amounts to nothing.

It was Peter that when asked by Jesus as to who Jesus was, replied that you are Christ. Jesus confirmed this and said that is what the Church was to be build upon.

That is the Name by which we are given salvation, Christ "Anointed One". Also remember Jesus said He would write upon us the New Name and only those that accept the New name, accept Christ. It is God that Anoints the Messengers, with the same Holy Spirit, which is the Word.

The Message of Muhammad showed us how that Word is Given through the Messenger and the Bab and Baha'u'llah have confirmed it. Jesus was the embodiment of the Word in this Material World, a perfect mirror of the Word given by God, when the mirror of the body is broken in this world, the Sun of that Word still shines. It is only us that choose not to see it.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

though liberal Christians share the Baha'i view.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

@Brian2

I would have to add I read the link and disagree with quite a few statements that were offered there. It see some comments are way to liberal.

One point from the link is that the Bible is God's Word, to say it is not inspired by God, in any way, is incorrect. This is the Baha'i view and it says it In a nutshell;

Inscription in the Old Bible Written by Abdu’l-Bahá in Persian

"THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God." Abdu’l-Bahá Abbás

When we try to lessen its impact, or explain away what we do not understand by talking about errors in the Bible, I see we have missed what the Bible is offering, which is spiritual guidance, not a 100% accurate historical material story.

The older the records are, the more we should look for the light in what is offered. We tend to dwell more on the darkness.

Regards Tony