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Christianity vs Baha'i

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Yes, did Baha'u'llah or Muhammad say anything about the Three Woes being about them? Show me in the verses about the Three Woes how that describes Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah?
No, because when Muhammad came one of the Woes had come. There were two more woes left. So, Muhammad in Quran revealed there will be two Trumpets. So, then, you think, Abdulbaha saw these two trumpets and said these are the same as two woes.

Then the 1260... Baha'is make different events all begin and end with the same thing.
So, then the Quran says 1000 years, and when the Bab saw this, He thought lets count this from year 260, which is the year 11th imam passed, and claim, it is the year 1260, which happens to be in the Bible.

The Hegira and the declaration of The Bab. Yet, those events did not begin or end on the years of the Hegira and the declaration of the Bab.
From the time Juressalem was trodden under feet of Gentile till its end, there are 1260 years.
The time Juressalem started to be under the feet, happens to be the year, the Islamic calendar begins.

And really, several thousands of years ago God told Daniel, "Hey why don't you give a prophecy about the year when the UHJ gets established." No, I'm a little bit skeptical. Just like I am with the "prophecies" in the beginning of the gospel of Matthew. To me, they seem totally contrived.
I see you are skeptical.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Oh, one more thing, earlier a Baha'i, Trailblazer, was saying how the Bible is far from being first hand information from God. So the supposed Words of God could already be the words of men. Or, do you believe the unknown writers of the Bible accurately told the stories and the things of God? Let me help you with that... No, Baha'is don't believe the Bible is necessarily accurate. So what part of the Bible do you see as being the "Words of God"?

In our view, the Bible overall contains the truth. Bible was never altered and never got corrupted. However there are some negligible inaccuracies in it.

More over, the Bible is new testament and old testament. The Gospels, Revelations of John and then writings of Paul is truth.
The old testament is consistent of Torah, and also some history chapters. The Torah was issued from Moses, and in Bahai view is inspired word of God. There are some histories chapters in OT, which according to Abdulbaha are not the words of prophets.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Or, it was words of men about their God and later more men interpreted them to fit their beliefs. And now what Baha'is believe contradicts those beliefs so they come up with a reasonable, to them, explanation to why those old beliefs were wrong.
So, then, Abdulbaha and Bahaullah who were born in Islamic country where everyone believes the Bible is corrupted, and no one even reads the Bible, they somehow got so knowledgeable about its details to be able to match its terms and prophecies with the Babi and Bahai Faith details.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If a human quotes first ideal science, no change. By human conditions to think.

Then quotes I will change the planet my own male human self, as science, the state by human chosen conditions then he did.

What would a false prophet be in that instant? What has not yet been changed, inherited.

So science quotes I first thought of the status maths once in a natural status before I imposed change by my machine conditions. In science.

So owns once only in memory when he claims science/maths is holy. When it was inferred naturally without change.

Then he used both science and maths to force change and gained a false prophecy, for natural had not owned change until he forced it.

Science was a self teaching to a self human that their choice to apply change itself was wrong. He never knew change before it occurred, yet falsifies wisdom and knowledge in a claim that he could idealise what the after effect would be.

What false prophecy actually meant in the use to prophecies, using numbers and factors as a calculation but then inherit false outcomes.

Want, the reactive status which science claims I was correct about. Yet all other status in natural change also. That quote in his mind is a care less attitude and always was. As his motivation personally is I will do whatever I want.

To falsify information is to change natural upon which the first science thought was imposed. A human teaching about false proselyting. If the one claim is O whole and complete and God the stone is the Earth as that one. Then you also taught so never change it, for it already existed completed.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
It's the fruits (works) of faith that are rewarded [James 2:18], not our acts of disobedience. ...
What are the fruits of faith?

What are the acts of disobedience?

So, if Christ said, do not commit adultery or fornication, and one disobeys and commits fornication and adultery, then believing that Jesus is Christ, saves him?
Or If God said do not steel, do not murder, and one disobey, and steels or kills, he would still be saved by believing Jesus is Christ?

Looks like a dangerous belief to me. Have you heard priests who were rapists? Isn't this, as a result of having such a belief that, as long as you believe Jesus is Christ, then they are covered.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Baha'u'llah is supposed to be the promised one of all religions. I wonder... what was it that all those promised ones were supposed to accomplish? I guess it says that the promised one is to come, get thrown in jail, start a religion and bring a bunch of laws that someday will lead to peace and then die.

I don't think there are verses about the Jewish Messiah that prophecy that, but maybe there is. Same with Christianity,.. the Christ is to come and die again without establishing peace? I don't know where it says that, but maybe, somewhere in the New Testament, it says that?
Well, I cannot say that Allah is not trying. He sends one messenger after the other, but he is not succeeding. Probably human evolution has taken it out of his hands to be able to manage human affairs. :D
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Lots of problems. The message came from God to the Angel Gabriel then to Muhammad who dictated it to people who wrote it down? So if I told you that an Angel spoke to me and for you to write down what I tell you, you'd believe me? Of course not. But you believe Muhammad?
No, I believe Baha'u'llah and His successors and that is why I believe Muhammad was a Manifestation of God (Messenger).
And what about Joseph Smith? He said he spoke to the Angel Moroni. Then he dictated what he read off of some special golden plates and dictated it to someone. Should we believe him? If not, why don't we?
I do not care what you or anyone else believes. Maybe Joseph Smith did speak to the angel Moroni, but that does not mean he was a Manifestation of God, a Messenger of God or a Prophet. As a Baha'i I do not believe that was the case because of what Shoghi Effendi wrote:

“Joseph Smith we do not consider a Prophet, minor or otherwise. Certainly no reference he made could have foretold the Coming of this Revelation in his capacity as a Prophet.” (Letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual, 21 Feb. 1942)
So Moses didn't write the first five books of the Bible? Isaiah or Daniel or Jerimiah didn't write the books ascribed to them? Yet, with those prophets, and the others, we believe their prophesies?
No, I do not believe Moses or the Prophets wrote the prophecies but they still might be true even if not exact.

All scholars know the truth. The Tahakh and the Bible were written by men, and we do not know who they were.

"Who wrote the Torah? In light of more than two hundred years of scholarship and of the ongoing disputes on that question,[1] the most precise answer to this question still is: We don’t know. The tradition claims it was Moses, but the Torah itself says otherwise. Only small portions within the Torah are traced back to him, but not nearly the whole Torah: Exodus 17:14 (Battle against Amalek); 24:4 (Covenant Code); 34:28 (Ten Commandments); Numbers 33:2 (Wandering Stations); Deuteronomy 31:9 (Deuteronomic Law); and 31:22 (Song of Moses). "

Who Wrote the Torah?

"Over centuries, billions of people have read the Bible. Scholars have spent their lives studying it, while rabbis, ministers and priests have focused on interpreting, teaching and preaching from its pages.

As the sacred text for two of the world’s leading religions, Judaism and Christianity, as well as other faiths, the Bible has also had an unmatched influence on literature—particularly in the Western world. It has been translated into nearly 700 languages, and while exact sales figures are hard to come by, it’s widely considered to be the world’s best-selling book.

But despite the Bible’s undeniable influence, mysteries continue to linger over its origins. Even after nearly 2,000 years of its existence, and centuries of investigation by biblical scholars, we still don’t know with certainty who wrote its various texts, when they were written or under what circumstances.

Who Wrote the Bible?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Allegorical explanation is used to teach.

If you are faithful it means you nourish the faith your owned self. The same as we eat food to be nourished.

Faith is only human expressed for human purpose.

Science invention has its own faith by asked in invention functioning. Not the same reasoning.

If science symbolism quotes some sine frequencies own fruit like comparison. Then it is a comparison. As the info says sine frequency as first science inference.

Trying to understand variations is to realise variation already existed. The difference to claiming I don't control natural states to lying about it
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So before Muhammad there was no such thing as a nation? Yet, there were many empires? Strange? So let's work backwards... Muhammad brought nations... Jesus brought cities? Already this is messed up. Jesus' message didn't unite the village people into cities. Where do you get this stuff from? What is the quote from Abdul Baha' or Baha'u'llah that suggests such a thing.
I do not know about the cities, but I remembered where I read about the nations so here it is in the second paragraph. For comparative purposes, I have included what Shoghi Effendi wrote about the Revelation of Jesus Christ and the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

“The Revelation associated with the Faith of Jesus Christ focused attention primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed, as its central theme, the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find any reference to the unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a whole. When Jesus spoke to those around Him, He addressed them primarily as individuals rather than as component parts of one universal, indivisible entity.......

The Faith of Islám, the succeeding link in the chain of Divine Revelation, introduced, as Bahá’u’lláh Himself testifies, the conception of the nation as a unit and a vital stage in the organization of human society, and embodied it in its teaching. This indeed is what is meant by this brief yet highly significant and illuminating pronouncement of Bahá’u’lláh: “Of old [Islamic Dispensation] it hath been revealed: ‘Love of one’s country is an element of the Faith of God.’” This principle was established and stressed by the Apostle of God, inasmuch as the evolution of human society required it at that time. Nor could any stage above and beyond it have been envisaged, as world conditions preliminary to the establishment of a superior form of organization were as yet unobtainable. The conception of nationality, the attainment to the state of nationhood, may, therefore, be said to be the distinguishing characteristics of the MuHammadan Dispensation, in the course of which the nations and races of the world, and particularly in Europe and America, were unified and achieved political independence.....

“One of the great events,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has, in His “Some Answered Questions,” affirmed, “which is to occur in the Day of the manifestation of that Incomparable Branch [Bahá’u’lláh] is the hoisting of the Standard of God among all nations. By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.” The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 119-121
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The origins of one self human and equal is of no religion or religious ideal whatsoever.

We are all naturally present in presence self and life human 2 humans as 2 parents of human babies.

Not at all religious.

Religious by quotation involves scientific detailed descriptive analogies, human imposed.

To become as one is to no longer believe that religious/science idealism was ever real...for it is not.

For example....;mass exists of any form of form in a force as depicted by one thinker a human as a thinking theist. Who described for science all spirit/gas bodies either in mass or in the heavens. For human science. One self using one reason and one purpose......yet mass is huge in any form/force as one identification of.

So I live in mass so as mass in a gas in space cannot be measured as space owns no measure either by conditions of an applied number evaluation then I belong to an unknown measure.

A scientist compares that human being observation about self living inside of mass as compared to a self owned scientific thesis for a machine inventive controlled by human reaction. The human designer, who by all means studies all states natural to compare to claim and maybe I can copy.

Yet realistically he only copied a reaction to a mass, to be changed.

Theme and God or Allah did it to me....human, is a human quote because science, a human choice changed natural themes teaching of One history in the sciences. As the fact of it. Science argues science for science against science as a human who designed invented all themes science.

Then it became a religious idealism/to heal self and own self control about ideas as a scientific religious healing/medical motivation. Which is totally different in a human conclusive evidence against self. All expressed ideals only done by humans for humans on behalf of humans, supported by groups. As group ideals own a status to control the one single self.

One single minded self originally against natural and spiritual in human life was the scientist designer and no one else. Then he owned group support, so now the one single selves have to fight for the right of our origins, which was of course natural and not religious.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
New Allegorical explanation is used to teach.

Are you Saying Metephor is a way spiritual understanding is taught, if you are I agree.

If you are faithful it means you nourish the faith your owned self. The same as we eat food to be nourished.

Yes Spiritual food is for the Soul, and we must feed ourselves of the Spiritual food.

Faith is only human expressed for human purpose.

I think Faith is bigger than Human, yet we can limit it to our own understandings.

Science invention has its own faith by asked in invention functioning. Not the same reasoning.

Science is a way to discover material truths, faith is for spiritual truths. We have to find a balance.

If science symbolism quotes some sine frequencies own fruit like comparison. Then it is a comparison. As the info says sine frequency as first science inference.

Sorry lost me there.

Regards Tony
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Are you Saying Metephor is a way spiritual understanding is taught, if you are I agree.



Yes Spiritual food is for the Soul, and we must feed ourselves of the Spiritual food.



I think Faith is bigger than Human, yet we can limit it to our own understandings.



Science is a way to discover material truths, faith is for spiritual truths. We have to find a balance.



Sorry lost me there.

Regards Tony
Humans in religious creation idealism discuss 2 ideals from the one and same self life body, conscious human being just human.

Science is for science yet a human thinks on behalf of its quotes.

Faith is just a human owned lived condition of a choice and then continual applied choice to quote I express a faith by condition of it.

To claim that faith is something bigger than self is to also quote because lots of human like my own self believe in faith and its meaning.

Science however thinks that all biblical idealism is secret scientific meaning.

Why they interview the conscious spiritual self hoping that it might explain what science thinks it is missing.

So then you say to the scientist, you are human first, you are missing personally your own human faith to be faithful to self, human and your own continuance.

Therefore science quoting sine frequencies as a scientist owned fruit like shapes as comparing frequencies to what they know in human life as fruit. For you do not seem to realise for some years the human spiritual self has been interviewed by the science community looking for new science answers to old questions....how and why about God conditions, the stone, the earth heavens.

So whilst I give you an answer an answer also exists for the scientist.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
What are the fruits of faith?

What are the acts of disobedience?

So, if Christ said, do not commit adultery or fornication, and one disobeys and commits fornication and adultery, then believing that Jesus is Christ, saves him?
Or If God said do not steel, do not murder, and one disobey, and steels or kills, he would still be saved by believing Jesus is Christ?

Looks like a dangerous belief to me. Have you heard priests who were rapists? Isn't this, as a result of having such a belief that, as long as you believe Jesus is Christ, then they are covered.

You fail to understand that the Holy Spirit is holy! The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of righteousness and love. When does love steal, murder or commit adultery?

Walking by the Spirit is to DO the will of God. The fruit of the Spirit is listed clearly in Galatians: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Compare the fruits of the Spirit with the works of the flesh: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envying, murders, drunkenness, revelling, and such like.

We know that weeds will grow in the field, but at harvest time there will be a separation. The Lord will bring judgment.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
You fail to understand that the Holy Spirit is holy! The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of righteousness and love. When does love steal, murder or commit adultery?

Walking by the Spirit is to DO the will of God. The fruit of the Spirit is listed clearly in Galatians: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Compare the fruits of the Spirit with the works of the flesh: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envying, murders, drunkenness, revelling, and such like.

We know that weeds will grow in the field, but at harvest time there will be a separation. The Lord will bring judgment.

So, you think the Christians who believe Jesus is the Christ, and they believe in Holy Spirit, do not commit sins, such as murder adultery or fornication? And they have love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness,..?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
So, you think the Christians who believe Jesus is the Christ, and they believe in Holy Spirit, do not commit sins, such as murder adultery or fornication? And they have love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness,..?

A person walking by the Holy Spirit always walks in holiness. But a person who is born again of the Holy Spirit does not walk by the Spirit all the time! Only Christ was able to do this. There are times when the saved sinner falls short of the glory of God, and walks by the flesh instead. This is when fresh sins are committed.

Jesus Christ demonstrates His desire for us to succeed by offering forgiveness; much as a loving parent is long-suffering with a wilful child. Jesus continues to say to the believer, Trust me, and do as I do.

The fruits of the Spirit come with baptism in Christ, but a person who is born again is a babe in Christ and needs to grow in faith and understanding. Do born-again believers make mistakes? Yes, without doubt. But, learning to walk by faith is a whole new way of life. Faith is not simply saying, I believe in Jesus. Faith is having the assurance that the way of the Spirit of Christ is always the best way. Faith is doing what you sense the Holy Spirit is leading you to do; not doing what the flesh desires.

When Adam sinned, the first thing that happened to him was spiritual death. The Holy Spirit departed. When Christ baptises, the first thing to happen is that the Holy Spirit gives new life. This new life has an immediate impact on how people feel, but it must still be translated into actions, or works. The loving Holy Spirit needs time to change mental attitudes and beliefs.

If a person does not truly repent when they come to faith, then there are likely to be attitudes and beliefs at work which oppose the Holy Spirit. As the scriptures say, you cannot put new wine in old wineskins. Becoming a 'new creation' in Christ means a change to spirit, soul and, indeed, body.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
No, the followers of those religions misinterpreted the Words of God. Only God Himself can interpret His own words.
Let's just take Christianity... They take part of the Jewish Scriptures, The Bible, and they add the NT which early Church leaders decided on which writings should be included in that. In all those writings, that were written by men and canonized by men, is the "Words" of God? So, exactly, which words in those writings are the "Words" of God?

Then, I guess, those "Words" were written in such a way that people couldn't figure out what God meant by them, so the Church leaders interpreted those "Words" of God. But, they interpreted wrong. Only God knows the true interpretation? So, let's see, somewhere in the Bible and NT are the "Words" of God. How do we know this? I guess you'll tell me. Then, God didn't make these "Words" of his clear. People tried but failed to interpret them correctly.

So, at some point, God, the only one that can interpret them correctly gave the correct interpretation. And when did God do this? I get a feeling it is not something that is directly from God but through one of the people Baha'is believe to be a manifestation. But, this time, the "Words" are clear. The other "Words" of God that weren't clear are now made clear by God. Hmmm? And why couldn't he do that the first time?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Let's just take Christianity... They take part of the Jewish Scriptures, The Bible, and they add the NT which early Church leaders decided on which writings should be included in that. In all those writings, that were written by men and canonized by men, is the "Words" of God? So, exactly, which words in those writings are the "Words" of God?

I already replied to this, from Bahai view, Gospels, revelations of John, writings of Paul and Torah are divinely inspired. In the rest, there are truth as well, but were not issued from the prophets.

Then, I guess, those "Words" were written in such a way that people couldn't figure out what God meant by them, so the Church leaders interpreted those "Words" of God. But, they interpreted wrong. Only God knows the true interpretation? So, let's see, somewhere in the Bible and NT are the "Words" of God. How do we know this? I guess you'll tell me. Then, God didn't make these "Words" of his clear. People tried but failed to interpret them correctly.
The scriptures have two kinds of verses. The prophets spoke two types of languages in the scriptures. One type are clear, and its meaning is clear. Another type are expresses by symbols, metaphors, parables, riddles and figures.
So, it is the latter which the mainstreams could not interpret correctly.

So, at some point, God, the only one that can interpret them correctly gave the correct interpretation. And when did God do this? I get a feeling it is not something that is directly from God but through one of the people Baha'is believe to be a manifestation.
In Bahai view, a manifestation of God is directly revealing the words of God.

But, this time, the "Words" are clear. The other "Words" of God that weren't clear are now made clear by God. Hmmm?
Yes.

And why couldn't he do that the first time?
This is a difficult subject. It takes a lot to understand the reason why God did not speak explicitly before those things.

But, for start, I mention that Bahaullah said, the reason God spoke symbolically and uses difficult to understand allusions, is to test and separate pure from impure heart.

How does God separate pure and impure heart by the symbolic and difficult expressions? This is a good question, but it is not easy to explain in one sentence or paragraph. It take a lot of pieces of puzzle to grasp it.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
From the time Juressalem was trodden under feet of Gentile till its end, there are 1260 years.
The time Juressalem started to be under the feet, happens to be the year, the Islamic calendar begins.
It was never "trodden" under feet before that? So what was the "trodding" that happened in 621AD? The supposed "Night Journey"? I found this...
The city (Jerusalem) was one of the Arab Caliphate's first conquests in 638 CE; according to Arab historians of the time, the Rashidun Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab personally went to the city to receive its submission, cleaning out and praying at the Temple Mount in the process. Sixty years later the Dome of the Rock was built...​
So the actual siege took place 638 CE. Yet, Baha'is count the 1260 days that are turned into years from 621? So please clarify why you think that is the correct starting date of the "trodding"?
 
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