Christianity vs Baha'i

[CG Didymus]

In our view, the Bible overall contains the truth. Bible was never altered and never got corrupted. However there are some negligible inaccuracies in it.

More over, the Bible is new testament and old testament. The Gospels, Revelations of John and then writings of Paul is truth.
The old testament is consistent of Torah, and also some history chapters. The Torah was issued from Moses, and in Bahai view is inspired word of God. There are some histories chapters in OT, which according to Abdulbaha are not the words of prophets.

So the mess up with Ishmael and Isaac is not a problem? And it contains the "truth" but many of the stories in it are fictional? Like Creation and the Flood and the Sun stopping in the sky? So then it is not literally true. It is symbolically or metaphorically true? So those fictional stories have some message in them that is true? Like when God stopped the Sun in the sky so Joshua and the Israelites to kill more of the enemy, God was teaching us that he's going to go out of his way to help us destroy evil people? Metaphorically of course, not literally.

 

[CG Didymus]

So, then, Abdulbaha and Bahaullah who were born in Islamic country where everyone believes the Bible is corrupted, and no one even reads the Bible, they somehow got so knowledgeable about its details to be able to match its terms and prophecies with the Babi and Bahai Faith details.

That's the problem. I don't think they did a very good job of it. Revelation, a whole book of prophecies... and how many chapters do they comment on?

But then there is the problem with Muhammad's comments on the Bible too... Like the clay birds. Where did he get this story? Christians say that there's a clay bird story in some apocryphal writings. Was that Muhammad's source? Or did Gabriel tell him about that legend? But then, do Baha'is even believe that story literally happened? Since if Jesus, through God's power, made clay birds come to life, then it wouldn't be that hard for God to bring the dead body of Jesus back to life. Or, is it easier for God to bring dirt to life?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's the problem. I don't think they did a very good job of it. Revelation, a whole book of prophecies... and how many chapters do they comment on?

But then there is the problem with Muhammad's comments on the Bible too... Like the clay birds. Where did he get this story? Christians say that there's a clay bird story in some apocryphal writings. Was that Muhammad's source? Or did Gabriel tell him about that legend? But then, do Baha'is even believe that story literally happened? Since if Jesus, through God's power, made clay birds come to life, then it wouldn't be that hard for God to bring the dead body of Jesus back to life. Or, is it easier for God to bring dirt to life?

Ahaa, so, since Abdulbaha did not comment on every single verse of the Bible, He was making it up.
Very logical conclusion

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So the mess up with Ishmael and Isaac is not a problem? And it contains the "truth" but many of the stories in it are fictional? Like Creation and the Flood and the Sun stopping in the sky? So then it is not literally true. It is symbolically or metaphorically true? So those fictional stories have some message in them that is true? Like when God stopped the Sun in the sky so Joshua and the Israelites to kill more of the enemy, God was teaching us that he's going to go out of his way to help us destroy evil people? Metaphorically of course, not literally.

We already talked about Ismael and Isaac. There is no mess up from Bahai POV in the Bible, such as Isaac, Ishmael.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It was never "trodden" under feet before that? So what was the "trodding" that happened in 621AD? The supposed "Night Journey"? I found this...

The city (Jerusalem) was one of the Arab Caliphate's first conquests in 638 CE; according to Arab historians of the time, the Rashidun Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab personally went to the city to receive its submission, cleaning out and praying at the Temple Mount in the process. Sixty years later the Dome of the Rock was built...​

So the actual siege took place 638 CE. Yet, Baha'is count the 1260 days that are turned into years from 621? So please clarify why you think that is the correct starting date of the "trodding"?

This prophecy by itself was a thread.

solving the Puzzle: Jerusalem under feet of Genetiles



1260 years, Fulfilled Prophecy with Baha'i Faith?


After reading my posts in these threads, we can continue on this prophecy.

 

[CG Didymus]

Well, I cannot say that Allah is not trying. He sends one messenger after the other, but he is not succeeding. Probably human evolution has taken it out of his hands to be able to manage human affairs.

No, no, the Baha'is have said that all will be accomplished this time. Peace and harmony are on their way. And, if we wouldn't have stupidly disbelieved in Baha'u'llah, we could have already been living in peace. Just be patient. Once they are able to put in place their laws and justice system, all will be rosy.

Or wait, they say that those laws only apply to them? Oh well, the rest of us can just do what we want I guess and make are own laws. Hmmm? But that won't work. They have "God's" laws. We'll have people's laws that will lead to wars and strife? I guess at some point, if we're smart, we'll let them rule over us and we'll all live in peace understand their laws. Yes, can't wait for the day. How about you? They should just love us.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe Muhammad was a Manifestation of God

Why? It seems like the main reason is that Baha'u'llah said so.

I do not care what you or anyone else believes. Maybe Joseph Smith did speak to the angel Moroni, but that does not mean he was a Manifestation of God, a Messenger of God or a Prophet. As a Baha'i I do not believe that was the case because of what Shoghi Effendi wrote:

“Joseph Smith we do not consider a Prophet, minor or otherwise. Certainly no reference he made could have foretold the Coming of this Revelation in his capacity as a Prophet.” (Letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual, 21 Feb. 1942)

Maybe he did? Maybe Muhammad spoke to Gabriel. Have you read the Quran? Does it sound like Gabriel dictated things from God to Muhammad? Or, just slightly, does it sound like maybe Muhammad made it up? Then how about old Joseph Smith... He said he translated a book all about God and Jesus. Ever read it? I looked at it and thought it was probably all just made up stuff. Yet, Mormons believe it. I don't know why? Maybe the same way all religious people believe their Scriptures no matter how whacked out the stories sound.

No, I do not believe Moses or the Prophets wrote the prophecies but they still might be true even if not exact.

Well then people wrote it... not God, not an angel, not a manifestation.

 

[CG Didymus]

Those verses are all throughout the Bible.

Hmmm? But nothing about Satan? I swear I saw his name mentioned somewhere?

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not know about the cities, but I remembered where I read about the nations so here it is in the second paragraph. For comparative purposes, I have included what Shoghi Effendi wrote about the Revelation of Jesus Christ and the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

“The Revelation associated with the Faith of Jesus Christ focused attention primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed, as its central theme, the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find any reference to the unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a whole. When Jesus spoke to those around Him, He addressed them primarily as individuals rather than as component parts of one universal, indivisible entity.......

The Faith of Islám, the succeeding link in the chain of Divine Revelation, introduced, as Bahá’u’lláh Himself testifies, the conception of the nation as a unit and a vital stage in the organization of human society, and embodied it in its teaching. This indeed is what is meant by this brief yet highly significant and illuminating pronouncement of Bahá’u’lláh: “Of old [Islamic Dispensation] it hath been revealed: ‘Love of one’s country is an element of the Faith of God.’” This principle was established and stressed by the Apostle of God, inasmuch as the evolution of human society required it at that time. Nor could any stage above and beyond it have been envisaged, as world conditions preliminary to the establishment of a superior form of organization were as yet unobtainable. The conception of nationality, the attainment to the state of nationhood, may, therefore, be said to be the distinguishing characteristics of the MuHammadan Dispensation, in the course of which the nations and races of the world, and particularly in Europe and America, were unified and achieved political independence.....

“One of the great events,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has, in His “Some Answered Questions,” affirmed, “which is to occur in the Day of the manifestation of that Incomparable Branch [Bahá’u’lláh] is the hoisting of the Standard of God among all nations. By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.” The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 119-121

I'll take a look at this later. Thanks. The problem for me is that it implies that each manifestation brought higher levels of societal units. I think from the start were families and tribes and villages. Then big villages. Then somewhere there were cites and things that encompassed bigger areas that eventually were so big they called them empires. I don't know for sure, but if we go back in history, it seems like these things were always there. Prehistoric? Who knows.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just be patient. Once they are able to put in place their laws and justice system, all will be rosy.

You won't see that in your lifetime. That is a long way off, so why focus on the future?

I guess at some point, if we're smart, we'll let them rule over us and we'll all live in peace understand their laws. Yes, can't wait for the day. How about you? They should just love us.

The Baha'is are never planning to rule over anyone...
There is no point waiting for something that won't transpire in your lifetime. If I were you, I would be concerned about whether the Baha'i Faith is true or not, because at the end of the day, and the end of your life, that is all that will really matter.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why? It seems like the main reason is that Baha'u'llah said so.

That's true, because I believe that Baha'u'llah is infallible, and that whatever He revealed is identical with the will of God. The belief that whatever the Manifestation of God reveals is the same as if God revealed it is called Divine Unity.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings, p. 167

Maybe he did? Maybe Muhammad spoke to Gabriel. Have you read the Quran? Does it sound like Gabriel dictated things from God to Muhammad? Or, just slightly, does it sound like maybe Muhammad made it up? Then how about old Joseph Smith... He said he translated a book all about God and Jesus. Ever read it? I looked at it and thought it was probably all just made up stuff. Yet, Mormons believe it. I don't know why? Maybe the same way all religious people believe their Scriptures no matter how whacked out the stories sound.

I do not know why other people believe what they believe, probably because that is what they were taught in childhood or what they came to believe as adults, and after that they just hung onto those beliefs.

What it sounds like to me does not matter because who am I to judge holy books? I am just a fallible human being.

Fortunately for me, I do not have to surmise about any of that because I believe what Baha'u'llah and His successors revealed is the truth, because I am faithful to the Covenant.

Well then people wrote it... not God, not an angel, not a manifestation.

That is absolutely true, so the only question that remains is whether the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit or not.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hmmm? But nothing about Satan? I swear I saw his name mentioned somewhere?

There is plenty about Satan, but what it actually means is another matter altogether.... For example, this is a common example i often post to Christians:

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

The way I interpret those verses is that Jesus was not talking to a real entity called Satan; Jesus was saying to Peter that the things that are not of God but are rather of men (selfish desires) are offensive to Him. Then Jesus tells His disciples to deny their selfish desires and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for their selfish desires shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gets eternal life, not the body.

Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gets eternal life, not the body.

So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul in the sense that we lose eternal life.

Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God, which according to Jesus comes from believing in Him, and according to Baha’u’llah, comes from knowing Him and believing in Him. One can have eternal life in this earth world as well as in the spiritual world (afterlife).

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem for me is that it implies that each manifestation brought higher levels of societal units. I think from the start were families and tribes and villages. Then big villages. Then somewhere there were cites and things that encompassed bigger areas that eventually were so big they called them empires. I don't know for sure, but if we go back in history, it seems like these things were always there.

True, that is one change we see as humanity and the world evolves over time, so in order to accommodate changes in humanity and the world each Manifestation brought higher levels of societal units.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If I were you, I would be concerned about whether the Baha'i Faith is true or not, because at the end of the day, and the end of your life, that is all that will really matter.

How? What does your snake-oil seller said? Does he give any evidence whatsoever of what he said?

 

[Trailblazer]

How? What does your snake-oil seller said? Does he give any evidence whatsoever of what he said?

It is not what Baha'u'llah said that matters, it is what He did and what He wrote.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Judgement Day in Bahai view has come, and that was Day of Manifestation of the Bab.

If that was the judgment day, when Allah announced the rewards and punishment to all souls, then it was a bomb which went 'phut'. Bab is not listed with Bahais as a manifestation of Allah.

"The Báb's first religiously inspired experience, claimed and witnessed by his wife, is dated to about the evening of 3 April 1844." Báb - Wikipedia

Then, I do not know what is talked about so vociferously? Will Allah have a second judgment day? What about souls which came after the first Judgment day? You and me, for example. No more judgment?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If that was the judgment day, when Allah announced the rewards and punishment to all souls, then it was a bomb which went 'phut'. Bab is not listed with Bahais as a manifestation of Allah.

"The Báb's first religiously inspired experience, claimed and witnessed by his wife, is dated to about the evening of 3 April 1844." Báb - Wikipedia

Then, I do not know what is talked about so vociferously? Will Allah have a second judgment day? What about souls which came after the first Judgment day? You and me, for example. No more judgment?

Bahai interpretation of the Judgement Day of Quran is different than how mainstream Muslim interpreted.
When the Bab came, that was a Judgement Day, and the people of Hell and Heaven were determined by the virtue of belief or disbelief in the Bab. All those who recognized the Bab were successful and entered heaven, and all those who disbelieved in Him, were entered Hell.
Hell and Heaven in Bahai view are not physical places. They are spiritual realities.
The Bab in the beginning introduced Himself as gate to a Promised One. But gradually He revealed His real station, and in the final year of His Revelation, He proclaimed to be a Manifestation of God.

 

[ajay0]

Thanks for that. Yet I must tell you that Dada Lekhraj was called Om Baba in the group. He was the founder.

Anyway, though this is irrelevant, Om is to invoke like Ya or Oh. Shanti means Peace.

Initially I thought you were talking about another group with the same name but I confirmed it is the same from you now. So thanks for that.

Yeah, Dada Lekhraj was known as Om Baba initially during the early days of the institution, but he is now known as Brahma Baba.

Similarly the institution that he founded was known as Om Mandali in the initial times but is now officially known as the Prajapita Brahmakumaris.

 

[ajay0]

Hi Ajai.

Our main belief is that humanity is one human family and in the truth of all religions.

Here is the link to our official worldwide website.

The Bahá’í Faith - The website of the worldwide Bahá’í community

Very well stated.

The Prajapita Brahmakumaris too consider all human beings and sentient beings to be eternal souls in temporary bodies, and all are considered as the children of the One God Shiva, known as Jehovah, Allah, Ahura Mazda, Waheguru in the other monotheistic religions. Thus all human beings are one large family under one God and are united in fraternity.

The Brahmakumaris consider God to be an incorporeal point of light.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But Bab is not listed as one of the nine manifestations in Bahai relgion. That would falsify Bahaollah. There should be a 1000 year difference between two manifestations. Although, this again is a lie. Jesus came five hundred years after Buddha and Mohammad came 600 years after Jesus. Why do Bahais say different things at different times? If Bab and Bahaollah were contemporary, then what is the problem in Allah sending Joseph Smith and Mirza Ghaulam Ahmad too at the same time. All desired and it happened. Did Bahaollah report the message correctly? Did he understood the message.
This is the problem which occurs when Allah sends messages to ignorant and uneducated people. They don't understand it and garble it before passing it on. Allah never does a good selection of his messengers.