Biblical prophecies and statements. Are they about Jesus Christ or Bahaullah?

[InvestigateTruth]

Why should I? Its your burden of proof.

Why should you? Because you claim the Bible prophecies about three woes, do not fit with the Bahai interpretation. So, Bahai scriptures already showed and explained how the three woes fit. You say you reject it, yet you fail to demonstrate why you reject it. Do you see?

You have not responded to a single thing I said. But are quick to try and prove that the other person is a hypocrite. Great going sis.


Rhetoric. Sorry sis, no more explanations. You are eternally trying to prove the other is a hypocrite, and you pretend to know languages you dont know, making enough fallacious claims and being disingenuous.

No more.

Have a great day.

Seems like you found a new way to scape a conversation my friend. Every time you say, I am trying to show you are hypocrite.

I am not. But even if you think I am, this is a debate thread. It is your job to justify your view.

Moreover, the Bahai logic is not circular reasoning as you seem to think.

The proof of the Bahai faith, is Bahaullah Himself. I had a thread specifically for that.
You had participated in that thread, but left in the middle of a discussion. So, on this topic, if you want, you should continue on that thread again.
In that thread, it was demonstrated that Bahaullah wrote more than 17000 works, while according to history He did not go to school, He did not have teacher, and He did not have books to read. Moreover, in all these 17,000 works, not a single mistake can be proven to exist, as there have been many enemies of Bahai Faith who read all these works trying to find errors, but they failed. The internet are full of such attempts, though most of those enemies are Persians, so, their work is in Persian.

On the other hand it is undeniable that Bahaullah had great knowledge and wisdom as can be seen in these Writings.
To know things without learning, is a divine sign, which is the proof. So, the Bahais believe in Bahaullah for a reason which is verifiable. No circular reasoning.

As regards to prophecies, they all fit with the Bahai history. But one needs to have studied them fairly.
It is obvious that, when Bahaullah showed divine evidences, those who investigated Him and believed Him, would also trust in whatever He said. This is consistency in belief. Thus if He confirmed Bible, Bahais accept.

Moreover, Bahaullah lived 150 years ago. Andulbaha, and Shoghi Effendi lived 100 years or less ago. No body can have an excuse saying how we know the history.
This is not like Islam or Christianity which appeared 1500 or 2000 years ago, where history is unclear.
Just imagine if you lived 100 years after Jesus, or 100 years after Muhammed. The history of those times would have been much more clear to you, than the time you live. How much more should the history of Bahaullah be clear in comparison. He lived in the 19th century where history is written by far more greater accuracy and details, comparing to 1500 or 2000 years ago.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thats a bias, Shiii narrative. But there is a host of another side that you seem to not have studied. One could say "wonder why".

This is why Tony, one should not make derogatory statements like that by default. If you pretend to know something, and you are being dishonest, then I have a right to point that out, and of course, vice versa. But it is not valid to question why people dont study the ones that are only relevant to you. So others may ask the same question from you.

This seems like a concept brought up in the sectarian/political strife and has delved in it.

Ali is after Muhammed, and should have beens are all after Muhammed, after Quran was revealed, and has nothing to do with theology but politics and power. Ali should have been, doesnt mean anything. It only means something to the Sunni/SHii sectarian strife.

Who do you see is the Elijah of the Islamic Revelation?

Elijah always comes first, what has history recorded?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I dont think Baha'u'llah gave Messages from God. The prophecy of the Messiah in 1844 was a false prophecy.

I see you are free to see it that way and I will always wish you well and happy.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

I apologise, my reading and use of English again falls short.

I was thinking of my own journey and how much I have had to reconsider.

Yet I still have so many obstacles in things that I had previously learnt that prevent me seeing other paths, other thoughts, still so arrogant.

So let me put it another way.

If you do find that Baha'u'llah gave a Message from God, how would you then weigh comments made about that Message, as not having sufficient foundations? Example from what you offered;

"Well, in my opinion Bahaullah didnt know about the earliest Bible canons because he didnt have access to them."

It is OK to have that opinion, but if you do then cone to see that Baha'u'llah gave a Message from God, can you then see the demise we face in our heart. We then have to live with our....... Well is not the word Arrogance?

Regards Tony

Well. I agree that if bahaillah was indeed what you claim everyone mus follow through.

But discussion is not arrogance. To me it definitely seems like bahaillah predates modern findings. And if he was god himself in manifestation he would have known at least the earliest Bible canon. That’s not arrogance. To dismiss it it like that is your faith statement, not a valid argument.

I am in this thread to discuss the topic. And I fee that the responses have not been sufficient. Most have been faith statements.

I asked some specific questions about the prophecy you claim in revelation. But I did not get any response.

peace.

 

[firedragon]

Who do you see is the Elijah of the Islamic Revelation?

Elijah always comes first, what has history recorded?

Regards Tony

I don’t understand what you mean by “Elijah of the Islamic revelation.

 

[firedragon]

Why should you? Because you claim the Bible prophecies about three woes, do not fit with the Bahai interpretation. So, Bahai scriptures already showed and explained how the three woes fit. You say you reject it, yet you fail to demonstrate why you reject it. Do you see?



Seems like you found a new way to scape a conversation my friend. Every time you say, I am trying to show you are hypocrite.

I am not. But even if you think I am, this is a debate thread. It is your job to justify your view.

Moreover, the Bahai logic is not circular reasoning as you seem to think.

The proof of the Bahai faith, is Bahaullah Himself. I had a thread specifically for that.
You had participated in that thread, but left in the middle of a discussion. So, on this topic, if you want, you should continue on that thread again.
In that thread, it was demonstrated that Bahaullah wrote more than 17000 works, while according to history He did not go to school, He did not have teacher, and He did not have books to read. Moreover, in all these 17,000 works, not a single mistake can be proven to exist, as there have been many enemies of Bahai Faith who read all these works trying to find errors, but they failed. The internet are full of such attempts, though most of those enemies are Persians, so, their work is in Persian.

On the other hand it is undeniable that Bahaullah had great knowledge and wisdom as can be seen in these Writings.
To know things without learning, is a divine sign, which is the proof. So, the Bahais believe in Bahaullah for a reason which is verifiable. No circular reasoning.

As regards to prophecies, they all fit with the Bahai history. But one needs to have studied them fairly.
It is obvious that, when Bahaullah showed divine evidences, those who investigated Him and believed Him, would also trust in whatever He said. This is consistency in belief. Thus if He confirmed Bible, Bahais accept.

Moreover, Bahaullah lived 150 years ago. Andulbaha, and Shoghi Effendi lived 100 years or less ago. No body can have an excuse saying how we know the history.
This is not like Islam or Christianity which appeared 1500 or 2000 years ago, where history is unclear.
Just imagine if you lived 100 years after Jesus, or 100 years after Muhammed. The history of those times would have been much more clear to you, than the time you live. How much more should the history of Bahaullah be clear in comparison. He lived in the 19th century where history is written by far more greater accuracy and details, comparing to 1500 or 2000 years ago.

Same rhetoric again. Same attempt all over again.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well. I agree that if bahaillah was indeed what you claim everyone mus follow through.

But discussion is not arrogance. To me it definitely seems like bahaillah predates modern findings. And if he was god himself in manifestation he would have known at least the earliest Bible canon. That’s not arrogance. To dismiss it it like that is your faith statement, not a valid argument.

I am in this thread to discuss the topic. And I fee that the responses have not been sufficient. Most have been faith statements.

I asked some specific questions about the prophecy you claim in revelation. But I did not get any response.

peace.

What you need to know, is Bahaullah spent a lot of time Writing Tablets to answer questions. Anything anyone asked, He answered.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Same rhetoric again. Same attempt all over again.

Again you make a comment without backing it up or explaining your reason.

You say rhetoric again, yet, you dont explain why. What kind of debate is this?
Just imagine if everybody, whenever they wanted to scape a debate, they simply say rhetoric again. How would that be fruitful discussion. Well, my views hold then, because you refrain from directly engage and discuss them farther.

 

[Skywalker]

Because they are both God's Word. We have not added to them, God gave them to us.

An example of Adding is to make a doctrine called the Trinity which is not mentioned in the Bible. Man has gather verses and made a Doctrine that has become part of the Word.

Muhammad gave a Message from God, God's Word and God said in the 600's

"They disbelieved who say: Allah is one of three (in a Trinity): for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous chastisement will befall the disbelievers among them." [Qur'ân: 5:73]

The Trinity blinded Christians from Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, what greater chastisement that to reject what you pray for God to hasten?

Regards Tony

The Trinity doesn't have to be mentioned verbatim in the Bible for it to be true. Its underlined. In Genesis the Bible says Let us make man in our image. The Quran says that Mary is part of the Trinity, which is a doctrine people made up about the Bible. Its not in the Bible.

 

[Skywalker]

I see you are free to see it that way and I will always wish you well and happy.

Regards Tony

How could the Messiah have come back in 1844? This is why I believe the Bible prophecies are about Jesus not Bahaullah.

 

[firedragon]

Again you make a comment without backing it up or explaining your reason.

You say rhetoric again, yet, you dont explain why. What kind of debate is this?
Just imagine if everybody, whenever they wanted to scape a debate, they simply say rhetoric again. How would that be fruitful discussion. Well, my views hold then, because you refrain from directly engage and discuss them farther.

How could anything be fruitful when you cannot respond to a single question?

This thread about Biblical prophecies and how they are about Bahaullah. You have given references in the Bahai scripture, and I have said since I dont have that knowledge in your scripture I will refer them. But that's not to say that I dont know the Bible and I concede.

The only prophecy that I would look at as a future in the perfect tense are the ones in the book of revelation because its a dream. Not that I have any trust in that book whatsoever, but as a scriptural prophecy at least are they valid?

No one has responded to the question on it. So without responding to that, when you bring rhetorical arguments I will say they are rhetoric.

Hope you understand. Try to look at what I just said on the verses posed by Tony as prophecy of Bahaullah and Muhammed and the Bab.

Peace.

 

[CG Didymus]

Arrogance in our own learning and opinions have always been our downfall. If you read history and of those that reject the Messengers, the statement that the Messenger had no Clue about previous scriptures jumps ou every time.

I think in your fairness, that you will see that is a valid comment.

As you would be aware, numbers play a great role in scripture as well, numbers can have many hidden meanings.

666 to me is a fascinating number.

The 3 same Numbers could each represent a Messenger Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah.

The Beast is those that arise against all 3 of those Messengers or distort what was offered.

Then 666 can become 18, representing 2 Mesengers, the First the Primal point 1 and the Last Messenger Muhammad 8.

Then 18 becomes 9 representing the Final Promise the Fulfilment of all Prophecy in the Glory of God, Baha'u'llah.

All that is only my thoughts on 666.

Regards Tony

What are your thoughts on Revelation 13:11-18...

11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well. I agree that if bahaillah was indeed what you claim everyone mus follow through.

But discussion is not arrogance. To me it definitely seems like bahaillah predates modern findings. And if he was god himself in manifestation he would have known at least the earliest Bible canon. That’s not arrogance. To dismiss it it like that is your faith statement, not a valid argument.

I am in this thread to discuss the topic. And I fee that the responses have not been sufficient. Most have been faith statements.

I asked some specific questions about the prophecy you claim in revelation. But I did not get any response.

peace.

The Baha'i Writings confirm the line from Peter was intended by Christ.

Thus the Cannon compiled by the Catholic Church is the sure guide.

There is also a great line of what can be seen as Hadith.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

How could the Messiah have come back in 1844? This is why I believe the Bible prophecies are about Jesus not Bahaullah.

I always ask them if there are still wars and rumors of wars how could the end have already come? Of course they explain it away.

 

[CG Didymus]

The verse needs to be taken in full context.

Okay, taken in full context what do you think?

 

[Skywalker]

How could anything be fruitful when you cannot respond to a single question?

This thread about Biblical prophecies and how they are about Bahaullah. You have given references in the Bahai scripture, and I have said since I dont have that knowledge in your scripture I will refer them. But that's not to say that I dont know the Bible and I concede.

The only prophecy that I would look at as a future in the perfect tense are the ones in the book of revelation because its a dream. Not that I have any trust in that book whatsoever, but as a scriptural prophecy at least are they valid?

No one has responded to the question on it. So without responding to that, when you bring rhetorical arguments I will say they are rhetoric.

Hope you understand. Try to look at what I just said on the verses posed by Tony as prophecy of Bahaullah and Muhammed and the Bab.

Peace.

Those prophecies dont refer to Mohammad because Mohammad went against the teachings of the Bible. He said that Allah is the personal name of God. The Quran is like the book of Mormon saying its the third testament of Christ. Jesus said in Matthew 7: 15, ""Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don’t understand what you mean by “Elijah of the Islamic revelation.

The Bible says Elijah always comes first, that the way for the Messenger is prepared by a teacher, who is forteling the Message is about to come.

For Jesus Christ that was John the Baptist, who Jesus said was Elijah.

For the Bab there were 2 successive teachers starting as early as 1800, for Baha'u'llah the Bab, a Messenger who was also the Elijah for the "Day of God".

It is also written that in the physical sky a star also precedes the Messenger.

Has history recorded who was preparing the way for Muhammad? Who was the Elijah for the Message given by Muhammad?

Today was the first thing I have found, e en though I had done many previous searches. When Muhammad was a child a Christian Monk knew who Muhammad was, so I do wonder if that Monk, then taught about what was to come?

Unfortunately the link also said not much is known of the time before Muhammad, so maybe that knowledge is lost?

Regards Tony

 

[Skywalker]

I always ask them if there are still wars and rumors of wars how could the end have already come? Of course they explain it away.

Modern scholarship tries to debunk the traditional Christ. The real Jesus is the Advocate Redeemer Mediator Messiah, who didn't just come to save us from our sins, but came to reconcile us back to a relationship with God, so that we could come before God.

 

[Skywalker]

The Bible says Elijah always comes first, that the way for the Messenger is prepared by a teacher, who is forteling the Message is about to come.

For Jesus Christ that was John the Baptist, who Jesus said was Elijah.

For the Bab there were 2 successive teachers starting as early as 1800, for Baha'u'llah the Bab, a Messenger who was also the Elijah for the "Day of God".

It is also written that in the physical sky a star also precedes the Messenger.

Has history recorded who was preparing the way for Muhammad? Who was the Elijah for the Message given by Muhammad?

Today was the first thing I have found, e en though I had done many previous searches. When Muhammad was a child a Christian Monk knew who Muhammad was, so I do wonder if that Monk, then taught about what was to come?

Unfortunately the link also said not much is known of the time before Muhammad, so maybe that knowledge is lost?

Regards Tony

John the Baptist is not the reincarnation of Elijah. The star you are talking about is the star of Bethlehem. Moses prepared the way for Jesus, not Mohammed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How could the Messiah have come back in 1844? This is why I believe the Bible prophecies are about Jesus not Bahaullah.

Why did many Christains have great expectation I'd the 1800's for it to happen and in fact many did see that it was to be 1844?

Why after 1844 did the Church then begin to splinter into many tens of thousands of branches?

Regards Tony