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Biblical prophecies and statements. Are they about Jesus Christ or Bahaullah?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Okay. Let me pinpoint one prophecy that Christians believe referred to Jesus himself. How about the Suffering Servant in the Isaiah passage in chapter 53? Who is that referring to?
Baha’is believe that Isaiah 53 is about Baha’u’llah, the return of the Christ Spirit that Jesus promised to send (John 14:16, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:17). Baha’u’llah was also the Messiah the Jews have been long awaiting.There in the valley of ‘Akká, in sight of holy ‘Carmel’, the entire prophecy of the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah was brought to its fulfillment.

Regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was despised and rejected by certain Jews who wanted Him executed, but He was not rejected by most men. Jesus was a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief, but He was esteemed by many men.

Certainly, Isaiah 53:4 and Isaiah 53:5 could apply to Jesus, but they also apply to Baha’u’llah. However, Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the end days.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Bahá’u’lláh was rejected by his own countrymen, and was sent into exile. His life was filled with grief and sorrow.

The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

I read the following words of Bahá’u’lláh concerning his persecution and imprisonment: “Though weariness lay Me low, and hunger consume Me, and the bare rock be My bed, and My fellows the beasts of the field, I will not complain, but will endure patiently … and will render thanks unto God under all conditions … We pray that, out of His bounty—exalted be He—He may release, through this imprisonment, the necks of men from chains and fetters…” The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 42–3.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Bahá’u’lláh was twice stoned, once scourged, thrice poisoned, scarred with hundred-pound chains which cut through his flesh and rested upon the bones of his shoulders. He lived a prisoner and an exile for nearly half a century.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Bahá’u’lláh was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:“Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” Psalms 89:27, 28

The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Baháthe Centre of his Covenant.

Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” Psalms 142:7.

These events in the valley of ‘Akká with its strong fortress prison had been foreshadowed in Ecclesiastes 4:14: “For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor.”

Comments from: Thief in the Night, pp. 155-159
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Simply put, because Manifestations of God are human as well as divine. Also, we know Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of Man, and Baha'u'llah also referred to Jesus as the Son of Man in these passages: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86.

All Manifestations of God have a twofold nature that no other humans possess. They have a human station and a spiritual station:

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, 67 and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67
Simply put, because Manifestations of God are human as well as divine. Also, we know Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of Man, and Baha'u'llah also referred to Jesus as the Son of Man in these passages: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86.

All Manifestations of God have a twofold nature that no other humans possess. They have a human station and a spiritual station:

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, 67 and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

Daniel saw one who looks like a Son of Man.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus referred to himself as the son of man multiple times.
Baha'u'llah also referred to Jesus as the Son of man, and Baha'ullah was the return of the Son of Man in the clouds of heaven.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Old Testament uses the name Yahweh for God.
What is the name of God the Father? | CARM.org
So what? Yahweh is just a name for God. The New Testament does not call God Yahweh.

In contrast to the variety of absolute or personal names of God in the Old Testament, the New Testament uses only two, according to the International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia. Of the two, Θεὀς ("God") is the more common, appearing in the text over a thousand times.

Names and titles of God in the New Testament - Wikipedia
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Muhammad and Ali are the Two Witnessed in Revelation that gave Prophecy for 1260 years, clothed in sackcloth.

The Beast is the 7 kingdoms and 10 rulers of that time.

That all happened up until 1844, when Christ returned.

Regards Tony
Rev 11:3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”
5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.
6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.
9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.
10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.​
So they prophecy for 1260 days. Then a beast kills them. Who is this beast? Their bodies lie in the street for 3 1/2 days in the city where their Lord was crucified. Who is their Lord and where was he crucified? After the 3 1/2 days they come back to life. An earthquake happens at that very hour and 7000 people die. The second woe has passed.

It sounds like this is describing events that happen during the second woe, not the first. The 1260 days that they do their prophesying are made into years. But then after they prophecy they are killed? Then the 3 1/2 days are also converted into 1260 years? So they prophecy for 1260 years, while at the same time they are dead for 1260 years? It is so easy to say that this is a prophecy about Muhammad and Ali, but it's hard to show it. Besides, why are three "Woes" made into manifestations? Only in the minds of Baha'is. Is there anywhere else that Baha'is make "Woes" a manifestation? I certainly have never heard any Baha'i claim such a thing. So why these three "Woes"?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
So what? Yahweh is just a name for God. The New Testament does not call God Yahweh.

In contrast to the variety of absolute or personal names of God in the Old Testament, the New Testament uses only two, according to the International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia. Of the two, Θεὀς ("God") is the more common, appearing in the text over a thousand times.

Names and titles of God in the New Testament - Wikipedia

Jesus talked about the Father, in the New Testament. Is Jesus the same person as the Father? | CARM.org

Is Jesus the same person as the Father?
No, Jesus is not the same person as the Father. In the doctrine of the Trinity, there are three persons in the Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We use the term "person" to describe each of the three because each displays attributes of personhood. Each has a will, speaks, loves, is self-aware, and is aware of others. Yet, the Bible teaches that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22). Therefore, the person of the Son is not the same person as the Father. They speak to each other and have their own wills.

  • Matt. 3:17, "and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
  • Luke 22:42, "Father, if Thou art willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Thine be done."
There are, however, Oneness Pentecostal groups who claim that there is only one person in the Godhead: Jesus. They erringly state that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the same person, only different in manifestation. This is an error.

The correct doctrine is that there is only one God who is three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each is not the same person as the other. Yet, there are not three gods, only one.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Quran isn't the Word of God, because it doesn't agree with the teachings of the Bible.
It doesn't disagree either, it is just different in some regards....

It is some Muslim interpretations of the Bible that make it appear as if the Qur'an disagrees with the Bible, but interpretations are not always correct.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Rev 11:3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”
5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.
6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.
9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.
10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.​
So they prophecy for 1260 days. Then a beast kills them. Who is this beast? Their bodies lie in the street for 3 1/2 days in the city where their Lord was crucified. Who is their Lord and where was he crucified? After the 3 1/2 days they come back to life. An earthquake happens at that very hour and 7000 people die. The second woe has passed.

It sounds like this is describing events that happen during the second woe, not the first. The 1260 days that they do their prophesying are made into years. But then after they prophecy they are killed? Then the 3 1/2 days are also converted into 1260 years? So they prophecy for 1260 years, while at the same time they are dead for 1260 years? It is so easy to say that this is a prophecy about Muhammad and Ali, but it's hard to show it. Besides, why are three "Woes" made into manifestations? Only in the minds of Baha'is. Is there anywhere else that Baha'is make "Woes" a manifestation? I certainly have never heard any Baha'i claim such a thing. So why these three "Woes"?
I see you found us...... :)

I was going to tell you about this thread in a few minutes but you beat me to the punch. :D
I only discovered this thread very late last night.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It doesn't disagree either, it is just different in some regards....

It is some Muslim interpretations of the Bible that make it appear as if the Qur'an disagrees with the Bible, but interpretations are not always correct.

The Quran disagrees with the Bible on the essential topic of who Jesus Christ is. Is the God of Chrstianity and the God of Islam the same? | CARM.org

Is the God of Chrstianity and the God of Islam the same?
The God of Christianity and the God of Islam are not the same. First of all, the God of Christianity is a Trinity where the God of Islam is not. The Trinity is the monotheistic teaching that God exists eternally as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In Islam, this is blatantly denied.

  • "And behold! Allah will say: "O 'Isa Ibn Maryam! Did you say to men, "Worship me and my mother as gods besides Allah?" He will say: "Glory to you! Never could I say what I had no right to say. Had I said such a thing, you would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in yours. For you know in full all that is hidden," (Quran 5:116).
  • "O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs," (Quran 4:171).
Furthermore, in Christianity, the doctrine of the Trinity allows for the incarnation of the Word. John 1:1, 14 says that the Word which was God was with God and became flesh and dwelt among us and was crucified (Matt. 26:2; 27:38). This is denied in Islam, which says that Jesus is only a prophet and was not crucified.

  • "[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet," (Quran 19:30).
  • "And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain," (Quran 4:157).
So, the God of Islam and the God of Christianity are not the same. The God of Islam is false and all who believe in it are in a state of damnation. We can only hope that the Muslims will repent of their idolatry and follow after the true and living God as revealed by Jesus (John 1:1,14; 14:6; Heb. 1:3).
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus talked about the Father, in the New Testament. Is Jesus the same person as the Father? | CARM.org
Baha'is also believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, so in that sense we believe in a Trinity; but we do not think that these three are part of God. Rather, they are separate entities that work together. That is explained in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY

Some people get lost in that chapter, so I wrote up a brief encapsulation of it;

There is only One God.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, an emanation from God. God is like the sun and the Holy Spirit is like the rays of the sun. God remains in His own high place, and does not ever descend to earth.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which became visible and evident in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror, but God did not descend into the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the God was visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Comforter, Counselor, Helper, and Advocate are all descriptive terms or titles used for the Bounty of God that came to us through the Holy Spirit when Jesus appeared.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
And that one was Baha'u'llah, who was the return of the Son of Man in the clouds of heaven..

Jesus is the only Messiah. Is Jesus' coming on the clouds of heaven entirely separate from final judgment? | CARM.org

Is Jesus' coming on the clouds of heaven entirely separate from final judgment?
The World Mission Society Church of God (WMSCOG) teaches that the prophecies regarding Jesus "coming on the clouds of heaven" are completely unrelated to judgment. According to them, Jesus coming "on a cloud" and His coming in final judgment are two completely separate things with no connection to one another. As they explain:

"Christians commonly believe and teach that when Jesus Christ comes on a cloud, the earth will be immediately destroyed, Judgment Day will come and God’s children will enter the kingdom of heaven. But if we take a close look at the Scriptures, Jesus coming on a cloud and Judgment Day are two separate occurrences."1

It is important for them to make this distinction as they claim that their founder, Ahnsahnghong, was the literal return of Jesus and his birth was the second coming of Christ. Yet, Ahnsahnghong died in 1985 (a fact that itself already proves that he was not the real Jesus) and thus this supposed "second coming" ended without judgment being poured out on the wicked or God's people being fully and finally delivered. Thus, the WMSCOG is forced to create an additional "coming." Jesus was to come "on the clouds," which He now has allegedly already done, and then He will come yet again with fire and judgment. This scheme, however, contradicts the plain statements of Scripture.

See, Mourn, and Fear
The WMSCOG needs the "coming on the clouds" to be a simple human birth, largely unnoticed by most of the world and insignificant even to those who would become the WMSCOG faithful until later into Ahnsahnghong's adulthood. The New Testament, however, is clear that when Jesus' comes on the clouds of heaven, it's not going to be anything like His quiet birth in Bethlehem that ushered in His first coming. Instead, we are told:

"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen," (Revelation 1:7).

Nothing like this happened at the birth or even during the life of Ahnsahnghong. Most of the world never saw him. The vast majority have still never even heard of him. They certainly did not mourn him. Ahnsahnghong was not seen or recognized by those who pierced Jesus. Nothing that was supposed to happen when Jesus came on the clouds of heaven happened during the life of Ahnsahnghong. The "coming on the clouds" was to be something seen and recognized by all, something that would bring grief and mourning. Jesus Himself elaborates on this further in Luke's gospel:

"There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near," (Luke 21:27).

Even if one takes the language of heavenly catastrophe to be symbolism, the symbols point to an event of terror and judgment. When these events take place, even Jesus' followers might be tempted to despair, which is why they are assured that they ought to straighten up their heads and be confident amidst the turmoil because their redemption is drawing near. Jesus comes on a cloud in visible power and great glory. His coming is known to sinful man, and they are fainting for fear! This is certainly describing a time of judgment. If that were not already clear enough, Jesus continues His point by warning:

"Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man," (Luke 21:34-36).

So, Jesus' "coming on the clouds" is going to spring upon everyone who dwells on the face of the earth like a trap. If you are not ready, you will not be able to escape what will take place when He comes. You will not be able to "stand before the Son of Man." This is not a description of an obscure birth in Korea or the founding of a new modern religion that will slowly expand after the founder's quiet death. This is the description of a grand judgment which one desperately wishes to avoid. That is what the New Testament means by Jesus' coming on the clouds.

Coming on the Clouds and Matthew 24-25
Perhaps the clearest discussion, however, is in the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24. Here, Jesus again speaks similarly to what we read both in Revelation and in Luke:

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory," (Matthew 24:30).

Expanding on what this "coming on the clouds of the sky" will be, Jesus explains:

"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming," (Matthew 24:37-42).

Thus, Jesus compares the "coming on the clouds" to the global judgment of the great flood in Noah's day and describes it in terms of people being seized unexpectedly wherever they may be. Similar to what we see in Luke, Jesus again goes on to warn His disciples:

"Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will," (Matthew 24:42-44).

He explains this warning even further:

"Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth," (Matthew 24:45-51).
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
In Job the Messiah is referred to as a Mediator. The Messiah is an Advocate and Redeemer in the Old Testament. Job talked about His redeemer.
If you say so, but none of that necessarily makes Jesus that redeemer.

It's possible to believe in both the Gospels and the Tanakh. Messianic Jews read from the Torah and don't celebrate Christmas and Easter. Believing in Jesus doesn't make a person less Jewish. The two go beautifully together.
That's a very Christian perspective.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Quran disagrees with the Bible on the essential topic of who Jesus Christ is. Is the God of Chrstianity and the God of Islam the same? | CARM.org
"The God of Christianity and the God of Islam are not the same. First of all, the God of Christianity is a Trinity where the God of Islam is not. The Trinity is the monotheistic teaching that God exists eternally as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In Islam, this is blatantly denied.

Furthermore, in Christianity, the doctrine of the Trinity allows for the incarnation of the Word. John 1:1, 14 says that the Word which was God was with God and became flesh and dwelt among us and was crucified (Matt. 26:2; 27:38). This is denied in Islam, which says that Jesus is only a prophet and was not crucified.

So, the God of Islam and the God of Christianity are not the same. The God of Islam is false and all who believe in it are in a state of damnation. We can only hope that the Muslims will repent of their idolatry and follow after the true and living God as revealed by Jesus (John 1:1,14; 14:6; Heb. 1:3)."

There is only one God, the one true God of all the religions....
What he is saying is that the only true God is the God that Christians believe in...

I believe that what Christianity teaches about God is false. I do not believe that God is three persons or that God was incarnated in the flesh, but I do not damn anyone to hell just because my beliefs differ from theirs.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The same man Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago is not coming back to earth for the final judgment.
I believe that is just a Christian belief based upon a misinterpretation of the Bible....

I go by what the Bible actually says, what Jesus said...

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
If you say so, but none of that necessarily makes Jesus that redeemer.

In the Old Testament the Messiah is called Emmanuel, meaning God with us. Messiah | CARM.org
Messiah is a Hebrew word. It means "anointed one." It is the equivalent of the N.T. word "Christ" which also means "anointed." Jesus, as the Messiah, was anointed by God (Matt. 3:16) to carry out His three-fold ministry of Prophet, Priest, and King. As the Messiah, He has delivered the Christian from the bonds of sin and given to him eternal life. In that sense, Messiah means deliverer, for He has delivered us. The Messiah was promised in the Old Testament in the seed of the woman (Gen. 3:15).
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I see you found us...... :)

I was going to tell you about this thread in a few minutes but you beat me to the punch. :D
I only discovered this thread very late last night.
Yes, but I only read the first two and the last two pages. I might go back and read them all. I always learn a lot from Firedragon threads.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
But the authors of new testament did not say, Emanuel was Jesus.

But Bahai Scriptures says, Emmanuel is the forerunner of Bahaullah:

"In reality Emmanuel was the forerunner of the second coming of His Highness the Christ and the herald of the path of the Kingdom."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas, Pages 536-540

Jesus being Immanuel isn't a self contradiction. Immanuel means God with us. Is Jesus' name "Immanuel" or "Jesus?" | CARM.org

Is Jesus' name "Immanuel" or "Jesus?"
In Isaiah 7:14 the Bible gives a prophecy of the name of Jesus. It says, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel."1 If we go to Matt. 1:21, it says, "And she will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins." (See also, Matt. 1:25; Luke 1:31; 2:21). Is this a contradiction? No. It is not.

In ancient times names were often given as representations of the hopes and dreams of the parents or even of recognition of divine assistance. Names in the Old Testament had understandable meanings. For example: Abram means "exalted father," but Abraham means "Father of a multitude." Some names could even be translated into complete sentences as in Uzziel (‘God is my strength’--Ex. 6:18), Adoniram (‘my lord is exalted’--1 Kings 4:6), and Ahimelek (‘my [divine] brother is king’--1 Sam. 21:1).2

Names are more descriptive in the Hebrew and Greek than they are in English. They often refer to the character, purpose, etc., of the one being named. The closest we come to understanding this is in Native American culture. We are familiar with such names as "Running Bear," or "Pretty Eagle, "or "White Owl" as names. These names meant something and were far more descriptive than "Bob," or "Tom," or "Sue."

When we come to Isaiah 7:14, we encounter a prophecy about the Messiah--stating that his name will be Immanuel. Immanuel literally means "God is with us." This is significant because Jesus is God in flesh:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us . . . " (John 1:1,14).


For in Him [Jesus] all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9).


The Name Jesus
So, we can see that a prophecy of Jesus being "Immanuel" is dealing with his being God--the word in flesh. This was fulfilled in the birth of Jesus when the Word, known as the Son, second person of the Trinity, became flesh. We call this the incarnation.

When it came time to name the Lord, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and told Joseph to call his new son "Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). The word "Jesus" means "Jehovah is salvation." This is appropriate since Jesus is Jehovah, the second person of the Trinity, who became flesh and is our salvation.
 
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