Festival of Brexit

[ChristineM]

No doubt those are concerns. But slightly more than half of the voters, voted to leave, and we should try to understand why. While I certainly don't think that being PC about Islam is the only reason, but I do believe it's one of the reasons.

The was considerable shouting about east Europeans (mostly Christian) "coming to Britain and taking our jobs"

Many of the jobs they took were low paid manual labour (farm work, health service porters, etc) that no self respecting brit brit would throw away their hard earned social security checks to take if it meant exerting themselves.

Many of those east Europeans have now left the UK. Because if this, last harvest saw food rotting in the ground because there was no labour to harvest it. This state will only get worse with many supermarkets stockpiling non perishable goods because they expect fresh food to be in short supply.

Also last winter (pre covid) foreign nurses left the NHS to return home with the effect of causing a major advertising campaign offering a £5000 training bonus

 

[exchemist]

But we were speaking of Brexit and you brought Viganò up...lol

Yes......as evidence of your, er, eccentric opinions.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes......as evidence of your, er, eccentric opinions.

I meant that the British are the least xenophobic in Europe....btw...
And in Hungary and in Poland that is considered a flaw, not a asset

 

[icehorse]

I agree with your remarks about some strands of modern Islam. However I would point out that almost all Muslims in Britain live quite happily and peacefully under our secular laws without making any special demands. As ever, it is a tiny fringe that makes all the trouble.

But I admit I am concerned that the puritanical and politicised strands of Islam seem to have become more prominent in recent decades. My own view is the important thing is not to over-react. That will just make groups feel alienated and play into the hands of political Islam, which is really what is as the root of the problem.

Islam simply IS political. I wish I agreed that it was just "a tiny fringe", but the reality is that a significant percentage of Muslims living in Europe want to bring at least some aspects of Sharia into the legal system. Maybe 1/3?

 

[icehorse]

The was considerable shouting about east Europeans (mostly Christian) "coming to Britain and taking our jobs"

Many of the jobs they took were low paid manual labour (farm work, health service porters, etc) that no self respecting brit brit would throw away their hard earned social security checks to take if it meant exerting themselves.

Many of those east Europeans have now left the UK. Because if this, last harvest saw food rotting in the ground because there was no labour to harvest it. This state will only get worse with many supermarkets stockpiling non perishable goods because they expect fresh food to be in short supply.

Also last winter (pre covid) foreign nurses left the NHS to return home with the effect of causing a major advertising campaign offering a £5000 training bonus

We have similar issues in the US, with workers from south of our border. If an immigrant shares the values of the host country and wants to do work that needs to be done, I would agree that it's probably xenophobic to say no.

 

[Estro Felino]

The was considerable shouting about east Europeans (mostly Christian) "coming to Britain and taking our jobs"

Many of the jobs they took were low paid manual labour (farm work, health service porters, etc) that no self respecting brit brit would throw away their hard earned social security checks to take if it meant exerting themselves.

Many of those east Europeans have now left the UK. Because if this, last harvest saw food rotting in the ground because there was no labour to harvest it. This state will only get worse with many supermarkets stockpiling non perishable goods because they expect fresh food to be in short supply.

Also last winter (pre covid) foreign nurses left the NHS to return home with the effect of causing a major advertising campaign offering a £5000 training bonus

Exactly.
And in fact that is why Britain deserves a very good deal...because it needs time to readjust things after Brexit.

 

[ChristineM]

Exactly.
And in fact that is why Britain deserves a very good deal...because it needs time to readjust things after Brexit.

Britain deserves no more than anyone else, it made its decision to leave, why should Europe support it at their expense?

What britain deserves is a fair deal that works equally well both ways.

 

[exchemist]

Islam simply IS political. I wish I agreed that it was just "a tiny fringe", but the reality is that a significant percentage of Muslims living in Europe want to bring at least some aspects of Sharia into the legal system. Maybe 1/3?

That claim requires evidence, from a reputable source, i.e. not from one of those anti-muslim propaganda websites.

My understanding, for the UK at least, where I live, is that a proportion of observant Muslims regard sharia law as binding for marriage and divorce. That is actually not much different from Christians, for whom it is the religious ceremony that confers validity in the eyes of the church, not the civil procedure. (It is probably the same for observant Jews too, though I don't know that for a fact.) And that's all.

So far as I know there is no drive to demand that UK law recognises sharia law in any way. I don't know what you've been reading, this time, but if I were you I would check exactly what is claimed and try not to be fooled by embroidered stories by people trying to create propaganda out of something uncontentious.

But I'm willing to be corrected if you really have a solid basis for your claim.

 

[icehorse]

That claim requires evidence, from a reputable source, i.e. not from one of those anti-muslim propaganda websites.

My understanding, for the UK at least, where I live, is that a proportion of observant Muslims regard sharia law as binding for marriage and divorce. That is actually not much different from Christians, for whom it is the religious ceremony that confers validity in the eyes of the church, not the civil procedure. (It is probably the same for observant Jews too, though I don't know that for a fact.) And that's all.

So far as I know there is no drive to demand that UK law recognises sharia law in any way. I don't know what you've been reading, this time, but if I were you I would check exactly what is claimed and try not to be fooled by embroidered stories by people trying to create propaganda out of something uncontentious.

But I'm willing to be corrected if you really have a solid basis for your claim.

There is a lot of info out there. Wikipedia, The Guardian (is that a reputable paper?), Pew research... If you search the phrase "UK Muslims and Sharia" you will find a lot of articles. I don't want to debate which sources you think are reliable. Do the search, and determine for yourself.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Guardian (is that a reputable paper?)

It is. It just has a strong leftist bias.

 

[Secret Chief]

There is a lot of info out there. Wikipedia, The Guardian (is that a reputable paper?), Pew research... If you search the phrase "UK Muslims and Sharia" you will find a lot of articles. I don't want to debate which sources you think are reliable. Do the search, and determine for yourself.

I do love a good stat.

Over 40% of UK Muslims support “aspects” of sharia law

- National Secular Society

 

[exchemist]

There is a lot of info out there. Wikipedia, The Guardian (is that a reputable paper?), Pew research... If you search the phrase "UK Muslims and Sharia" you will find a lot of articles. I don't want to debate which sources you think are reliable. Do the search, and determine for yourself.

I'm not running around finding support for a claim you made.

I've already indicated to you why I think your claim is wrong and that I believe you have been misled. So it's over to you to show me I'm wrong, or else I will conclude it is a false claim.

I don't think you can support it, or you would have done.

 

[ChristineM]

It is. It just has a strong leftist bias.

Not strong by british standards, in fact its considered centre left

 

[icehorse]

I'm not running around finding support for a claim you made.

I've already indicated to you why I think your claim is wrong and that I believe you have been misled. So it's over to you to show me I'm wrong, or else I will conclude it is a false claim.

I don't think you can support it, or you would have done.

well @Secret Chief helped me out here - did you look at the link he provided?

This does bring up an interesting, recurring question I have:

There is a continuum of factual claims that run from totally established and rock solid all the way to completely without evidence. At what point is a request for evidence reasonable and at what point is it a dodge? I'm really not sure.

In this case, I didn't think I was making a very controversial claim.

 

[Augustus]

I'm 6000 miles away (or so). From what I gather, a lot of the kerfuffle has to do with immigration policies?

Yes, it's largely a consequence of the rapid expansion of the EU into Eastern Europe for ideological reasons, and the subsequent problems this caused for many working class communities*.

Also a backlash against the condescending progressivism that considers anyone who isn't fully on board their bandwagon to be a stupid, racist neanderthal who can't think for themselves and thus is a dupe for the 'right wing media'.

Just another fracture of the traditional working class/educated liberal centre-left alliance.




* or at least the perception of this being a significant cause, but people are unlikely to be persuaded that their daily perception of reality is wrong and some dubious academic argument how they actually benefit is the real

 

[Augustus]

I do love a good stat.

Over 40% of UK Muslims support “aspects” of sharia law

- National Secular Society

Only 40%?

Should be close to 100% who support 'aspects' of the Sharia given it covers things like fasting rules during Ramadan, Zakat, how to pray, etc.

This is the problem of polls on support for 'Sharia Law'.

 

[Secret Chief]

well @Secret Chief helped me out here - did you look at the link he provided?

This does bring up an interesting, recurring question I have:

There is a continuum of factual claims that run from totally established and rock solid all the way to completely without evidence. At what point is a request for evidence reasonable and at what point is it a dodge? I'm really not sure.

In this case, I didn't think I was making a very controversial claim.

It's a personal judgment call, I suppose. Regarding this topic, I had no opinion on it, prior to reading that link. For me, the source is reliable, the poll recent and the overall figures seem to support your suggestion a considerable proportion of Muslims are in favour of at least some inclusion of Sharia law into secular law.

 

[icehorse]

Only 40%?

Should be close to 100% who support 'aspects' of the Sharia given it covers things like fasting rules during Ramadan, Zakat, how to pray, etc.

This is the problem of polls on support for 'Sharia Law'.

But fasting and how to pray wouldn't fall into the category of British Law would they?

 

[Altfish]

Exactly.
And in fact that is why Britain deserves a very good deal...because it needs time to readjust things after Brexit.

Rubbish
The EU is a club; you pay a membership fee and for that fee you get benefits.
If you are NOT a member, you cannot expect anything like the same benefits.

 

[Augustus]

But fasting and how to pray wouldn't fall into the category of British Law would they?

Any poll on 'sharia' is functionally worthless given the potential ways the term can be interpreted and the fact that in places where people can actually vote for Islamist parties, the number of people who say they are in favour of sharia is often vastly below the vote share for Islamist parties.

Opinion polls in general are very dubious, and 'sharia' ones are the most dubious I've ever seen, as are any asking people to evaluate their own morals, intelligence, integrity, etc.