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The Relationship Between Faith and Reason.

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Sun, moon, stars, etc. (the human body)


Scientific Foreknowledge and Medical Acumen of the Bible

These are truths found in the bible. (facts)

1. It sounds like (hearing it audio) it talks about the religious influence medical practices today. That's the same in Greek philosophy and other modes of discipline. It says nothing of spirituality as it's "not written as a scientific or medical book." I'm sure you're not relying on medical practices from the Egyptians on illnesses and conditions we have today?

2. It also looks like it talks about rituals and symbolism people back then have done in relating to medical practices. This are historical facts not scientific ones. So, things like walking on water and changing bread to wine are what we are talking about when discussing biblical facts not its historicity.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Easy enough, your reasoning is faulty because you have not the slightest bit of proof to base any of your beliefs upon. As just because someone wrote a mythology that it's what ""god" says", or it "came from "god", is always a lie.

reasoning
(ˈriːzənɪŋ)
n
1. the act or process of drawing conclusions from facts, evidence, etc
2. the arguments, proofs, etc, so adduced

So if you have no facts, absolute proof that it came from the true God, then you have used no reasoning ability what so ever to believe in any of it.

I'll play this is a game I done many times.

First that is a definition of reasoning not the definition. I always look for the definition of a word from a source and then post it but I always phrase it with this is the definition I want to use. I will assume that is what you meant to do.

Define Act or process of drawing conclusions
Define Fact
Define evidence
Define arguments, proofs, etc

The truth is is you keep digging you will get to a point where reason is defined as fact and fact is defined as reason. Circular reasoning. Try it I've done it multiple times I believe truth or true ends up in the definition as well. There is no definitive answer to what is reason just another word that isn't reason.

Humans define the world through there experiences as such it is experiences not facts that define words. This is why what was fact 10,000 years ago is not fact today. What was fact 5000 years ago is no mostly not fact today. What was fact 2000 years ago is less factual today. Just 75 years ago after the building of the computer what we knew as facts have been dropping at an incredible rate. 100 years from today some of your facts will be obsolete and a form of God and Religion will still exist as it did 10,000, 5000, 2000 and 75 years ago along with your wrong facts.

I don't see any conclusive proof that the Christian mythology/bible came from "god". Just a wasteful straw man reply.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Easy enough, your reasoning is faulty because you have not the slightest bit of proof to base any of your beliefs upon. As just because someone wrote a mythology that it's what ""god" says", or it "came from "god", is always a lie.

reasoning
(ˈriːzənɪŋ)
n
1. the act or process of drawing conclusions from facts, evidence, etc
2. the arguments, proofs, etc, so adduced

So if you have no facts, absolute proof that it came from the true God, then you have used no reasoning ability what so ever to believe in any of it.

I'll play this is a game I done many times.

First that is a definition of reasoning not the definition. I always look for the definition of a word from a source and then post it but I always phrase it with this is the definition I want to use. I will assume that is what you meant to do.

Define Act or process of drawing conclusions
Define Fact
Define evidence
Define arguments, proofs, etc

The truth is is you keep digging you will get to a point where reason is defined as fact and fact is defined as reason. Circular reasoning. Try it I've done it multiple times I believe truth or true ends up in the definition as well. There is no definitive answer to what is reason just another word that isn't reason.

Humans define the world through there experiences as such it is experiences not facts that define words. This is why what was fact 10,000 years ago is not fact today. What was fact 5000 years ago is no mostly not fact today. What was fact 2000 years ago is less factual today. Just 75 years ago after the building of the computer what we knew as facts have been dropping at an incredible rate. 100 years from today some of your facts will be obsolete and a form of God and Religion will still exist as it did 10,000, 5000, 2000 and 75 years ago along with your wrong facts.

I don't see any conclusive proof that the Christian mythology/bible came from "god". Just a wasteful straw man reply.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Faith is fact based (1Tim. 2:4) (Heb.11:6).

Facts are based upon truth (Jn 17:17) (Jn 12:48).

It is only safe to reason within truth (Jn 1:14) (1Peter 4:11).

What is truth? - Is answered in (Jn 17:17) (Mt. 28:18-20) (Mt.4:4).

Nothing in your OWN WORDS?

If you are going to try convincing anyone of your statements, you will need to have something better than faith based mythology to back them up, something more rational from you would be preferable.

The words of mere men only confuse people when it comes to spiritual matters.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Nice try, but the words of men are only confusing when they know nothing about true spiritual matters and just make up BS.

I can speak quite plainly on spiritual matters because I DO know the subject matter.

So you wanna give up quoting gibberish from a book and get down to it?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I generally consider faith to be some combination of an unevidenced and unfalsifiable conclusion. So yeah. I am on board with my assumption that I am not the only mind to be a faith based belief.


Any suggestion on a good text that discusses some of those paraconsistent logics? A survey, rather than a deep dive.


You can always start with the Wikipedia page:
Paraconsistent logic - Wikipedia

or the SEP:
Paraconsistent Logic (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

or a Google scholar search:
Google Scholar
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
When asked to prove your if statement, your "proof" was to simply say it exists but somehow that was not an assumption? That is neither an application of math or logic, so you are not really employing either one in this conversation. You either prove your statements or you assume them.

You might be surprised at how many assumptions we make just to do math.

Sorry, I was assuming you were aware of the basics. Yes, I am quite aware of the assumptions required to do math.

OK, in Zormelo Fraenkl Set Theory with Choice (ZFC), which is the standard set of axioms for mathematics, there are two relevant axioms:

1. If A is a set, there is another set that contains all subsets of A. We call that set the power set of A and write it as P(A).

2. There is a set that has the empty set as an element and whenever x is an element, then x u {x} is an element.

The set of natural numbers, N, is defined to be the intersection of ALL sets satisfying the second property.

Of course, you have to define what it means to be infinite (and there are several different possible definitions for this, all equivalent in ZFC). So, we can say that a set A is infinite if there is a one-to one function f:A->A which is not onto.

With this definition, the function f:N->N defined by f(x) = x u {x} can be shown to be one-to-one and not onto, showing that N is infinite.

It is also true that P(N) is infinite by a similar trick.

So, another way of stating the continuum hypotheses is that every infinite subset of P(N) is either in one-to-one correspondence with N or with P(N).

If you really need me to start at the axioms and deduce all of this, I can, but it is probably best for another thread.
 
Sorry, I was assuming you were aware of the basics. Yes, I am quite aware of the assumptions required to do math.

OK, in Zormelo Fraenkl Set Theory with Choice (ZFC), which is the standard set of axioms for mathematics, there are two relevant axioms:

1. If A is a set, there is another set that contains all subsets of A. We call that set the power set of A and write it as P(A).

2. There is a set that has the empty set as an element and whenever x is an element, then x u {x} is an element.

The set of natural numbers, N, is defined to be the intersection of ALL sets satisfying the second property.

Of course, you have to define what it means to be infinite (and there are several different possible definitions for this, all equivalent in ZFC). So, we can say that a set A is infinite if there is a one-to one function f:A->A which is not onto.

With this definition, the function f:N->N defined by f(x) = x u {x} can be shown to be one-to-one and not onto, showing that N is infinite.

It is also true that P(N) is infinite by a similar trick.

So, another way of stating the continuum hypotheses is that every infinite subset of P(N) is either in one-to-one correspondence with N or with P(N).

If you really need me to start at the axioms and deduce all of this, I can, but it is probably best for another thread.

I don't need you to do anything. I was just proving a point. You claimed a belief truly independent of other assumptions, but now we clearly see your awkward example doesn't fit the bill and nothing in math will ever fit that description.
 
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Nova2216

Active Member
Nice try, but the words of men are only confusing when they know nothing about true spiritual matters and just make up BS.

I can speak quite plainly on spiritual matters because I DO know the subject matter.

So you wanna give up quoting gibberish from a book and get down to it?


What you call gibberrish....

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I am not foolish.

1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God...
 

Nova2216

Active Member
Miracles as well?

Bible has historical facts, philosophy, analogy. It's not a science or medical book. So, does the link talk about proof of miracles? (No one questions the historical nature of it)

(Read it later. I just got in)

Miracles did happen in the first century but ended soon after b/c of what is taught in (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19 ; 19:1-6).

Ac 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Once the apostles died
soon after the miracles ceased. (1Cor. 13:8-10) (Eph. 4:11-15) (Zech. 13:1,2)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Miracles did happen in the first century but ended soon after b/c of what is taught in (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19 ; 19:1-6).

Ac 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Once the apostles died
soon after the miracles ceased. (1Cor. 13:8-10) (Eph. 4:11-15) (Zech. 13:1,2)

From an outside source.

No one I saying the bible doesn't have historical accuracy. A lot of old do from Plato influence on medicine to the existing Jews of the day.

When someone says prove the bible they are asking for supernatural proof from outside sources. They need to correlates and they can't be to where one needs to fill in the gap or assume.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
If a person has a faith-based belief, and if faith is beyond reason, then is that belief outside the reach of reason? Can that person effectively engage their faith-based beliefs with reason? Can someone else effectively engage their faith-based beliefs in rational conversation? Or is faith and reason simply oil and water?
Faith does not require "belief". In fact, faith is how we move forward in life when we don't know what to believe. In many ways, belief hinders faith, as belief is a pretense of knowledge that does not, then, require faith, to act on.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't need you to do anything. I was just proving a point. You claimed a belief truly independent of other assumptions, but now we clearly see your awkward example doesn't fit the bill and nothing in math will ever fit that description.

Maybe you need to investigate what Godel and Cohen wrote about the Continuum Hypothesis. The proof that it is independent of the other axioms isn't an easy one. Godel did it by creating an internal model where CH is true. Cohen showed there is a model where it is false. That shows independence.
 
Maybe you need to investigate what Godel and Cohen wrote about the Continuum Hypothesis. The proof that it is independent of the other axioms isn't an easy one. Godel did it by creating an internal model where CH is true. Cohen showed there is a model where it is false. That shows independence.

Saying it is independent of other axioms is not the same as saying it is independent of other assumptions, which I feel we have established. Consider your own words "some assumptions are required to get past even solipsism." meaning everything in math is based on assumption. If we assume your statement is true (which I am not convinced of) then Cogito, ergo sum might be the only thing not based on some foundational assumptions.
Your problem here is that you are trying to take these grand philosophical concepts, which have a great deal of complexity and jam them into some mathematical abstract. I am sorry to tell you, but they don't fit.

Your expression of faith is somewhat akin to Kierkegaardian Existentialism, who claimed a need for a leap of faith, which was refuted by Albert Camus' existentialism when he pointed out that Kierkegaard never justified the need for this leap. Perhaps you should consider a break from math and instead read some more philosophy.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Saying it is independent of other axioms is not the same as saying it is independent of other assumptions, which I feel we have established.
The other assumptions *are* those axioms.

Consider your own words "some assumptions are required to get past even solipsism." meaning everything in math is based on assumption. If we assume your statement is true (which I am not convinced of) then Cogito, ergo sum might be the only thing not based on some foundational assumptions.

And I think that even the cogito depends on an assumption: that there is an 'I' doing the thinking.

Your problem here is that you are trying to take these grand philosophical concepts, which have a great deal of complexity and jam them into some mathematical abstract. I am sorry to tell you, but they don't fit.

But the basic ideas do fit: that you can't get any knowledge without assumptions.

Your expression of faith is somewhat akin to Kierkegaardian Existentialism, who claimed a need for a leap of faith, which was refuted by Albert Camus' existentialism when he pointed out that Kierkegaard never justified the need for this leap. Perhaps you should consider a break from math and instead read some more philosophy.

There is no 'need' for a leap. You just don't get anything if you don't make one. it is an assumption that it is a 'need' to get anything.
 
The other assumptions *are* those axioms.



And I think that even the cogito depends on an assumption: that there is an 'I' doing the thinking.



But the basic ideas do fit: that you can't get any knowledge without assumptions.



There is no 'need' for a leap. You just don't get anything if you don't make one. it is an assumption that it is a 'need' to get anything.

I don't care about your "axioms". Is all of math based on assumptions? If so then you are wrong. Is all knowledge based on assumption? If so you are wrong. Your own arguments counter each other.

Cogito, ergo sum is better to be read as it was meant to be, I think, therefore I doubt, therefore I am. The act of doubting your own "I", creates the "I". It is the only true certainty in this life because of the very act of doubting "I" creates "I". So it is not an assumption, it is doubt.

There is a difference between accepting "knowledge" as truth and realizing that all knowledge is only an approximation of possible truths, therefore everything we think we know is a lie (save for Cogito, ergo sum). You can either accept that or pretend the lie is the truth.
 
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Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
What you call gibberrish....

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I am not foolish.

1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God...

Of course you are foolish.

ALL you've done so far is quote from an ancient mythology that is spiritually void. Because you are spiritually void and empty, and have nothing to add of yourself.

I am well versed in many TRUE spiritual matters and can freely debate such issues in MY OWN words. So you can stop with your insulting quotes since YOU have nothing to back any of it up.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
Of course you are foolish.

ALL you've done so far is quote from an ancient mythology that is spiritually void. Because you are spiritually void and empty, and have nothing to add of yourself.

I am well versed in many TRUE spiritual matters and can freely debate such issues in MY OWN words. So you can stop with your insulting quotes since YOU have nothing to back any of it up.

I must thank you for those words. I will wear them as a badge of honor.

Care to apply (Gal. 6:1,2) and show me my error?

What is the true spiritual matters you speak about?

I'm curious.
 
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