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Featured The Relationship Between Faith and Reason.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ReluctantMathematician, Oct 16, 2020.

  1. ReluctantMathematician

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    If a person has a faith-based belief, and if faith is beyond reason, then is that belief outside the reach of reason? Can that person effectively engage their faith-based beliefs with reason? Can someone else effectively engage their faith-based beliefs in rational conversation? Or is faith and reason simply oil and water?
     
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  2. Amanaki

    Amanaki Veteran Member

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    Maybe i misunderstand your OP but the reason for the faith based belief is in the teaching of each religion :) the faith in it arise when I study the texts, and start practicing it. Then the reason to continue get better and better, because I see the teaching come alive in front of me in my life.

    So the reason for my faith is my personal experiences with it by practicing it daily.
     
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  3. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Faith and reason are perfectly joinable. I don't think I've ever met a religious person who is religious for no reason other than 'faith'; most serious practitioners have considered the arguments, studied the text/s if they have one/some, and utilised their experiences of the world to back up their faith.
     
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  4. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    The foundational concepts of a religion may be "beyond reason" in the sense that they are things one has to decide to accept without objective evidence. However I don't think that precludes the use of reason from there on, in developing and evaluating the further ideas and practices that are derived from them.
     
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  5. ReluctantMathematician

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    In the English language, context is very important and many of the words have multiple meanings depending on the context of use, so you seemed to engaged it in one context, but perhaps we could consider another.

    The OED is often considered a definitive source for word usage, so let's use that.

    The context that you seem to be engaging reflects this usage of the word reason:
    But perhaps you would be willing to consider engaging the questions in the OP for this usage:

    Home : Oxford English Dictionary
     
  6. alsome

    alsome Member

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    Everything on Earth must die, the afterlife is what scares people, animals don't have that fear.
    But----everyone dies. I guess our spirits will know, if indeed those spirits exist. Luck be to you.
     
  7. Amanaki

    Amanaki Veteran Member

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    Sorry, i do not understand your questions in your reply. So i can not answer different then i already did in my first reply.
     
  8. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

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    Not entirely. I'm currently working on my second religious book as per this topic:
    Create a Religious Book
    I have this segment:

    Basically, you can prove specific claims but not the belief itself. Of course, this is my belief about belief, so I likewise cannot prove it.

    Here's an example. I meet some supernatural figure on the road, and he tells me the great secret of the universe. "Horses are just big dogs." Now, astonished by this revelation, I'm even more astonished when this guy disappears. I first met him outdoors, so there are actual footprints as evidence. There are the logical portion to religion. I can trace these prints back to their origin, where I see this guy appeared at one point, as his prints suddenly start as well as suddenly stopping. This is physical evidence that someone has appeared and disappeared. However, my belief that this is Jesus/Buddha/a fox spirit cannot be proven. We know from his sudden appearance and disappearance that he is not a normal human, but beyond that we cannot verify anything. And perhaps all humans but me can suddenly appear and disappear, and I simply haven't witnessed it before?
     
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  9. ReluctantMathematician

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    I do not mean to suggest a person who is religious is void of reason in doing so. I am talking about faith-based beliefs. Such as Jesus walked on water, God is real, homosexuality is a sin, and so on. All of which I have heard people express they hold these beliefs because of faith.
     
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  10. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Well ideas like 'sin' and 'miracles' are pretty much religious concepts, so I'm not sure how you'd expect them to exist outside of a religious context in the first place, especially in the West. There are non-religious people who think homosexuality is 'wrong' though, etc.; I live with such a person.
     
  11. ReluctantMathematician

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    Let's say a person believes Jesus walked on water and that their justification for believing so is that they have faith in it. Then do you think it is possible to engage their belief that Jesus walked on water with a rational conversation about humans and their lack of ability to walk on water?
     
    #11 ReluctantMathematician, Oct 16, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Is there nonreligious support for things like miracles that are not confirmed by our own biases and conclusions from them?

    I'm sure their conclusions are logical based on their own criteria. Anyone can use reason with their own criteria to determine truth bit when asked can one reason, say walking on water, by universal truth such as reason, how do literalist work that our?
     
    #12 Unveiled Artist, Oct 16, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
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  13. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    I don't know if there is non-religious support for miracles; I've never come across such a claim. Not sure if that would make sense without some supernatural belief, going by the popular definition of 'miracle'.
     
  14. ReluctantMathematician

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    Did Jesus walk on water?
     
  15. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    I don't know? Not sure what this has to do with me?
     
  16. ReluctantMathematician

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    Many people both religious and non-religious consider chid birth a miracle. Just like many people both religious and non-religious consider theft a sin.
     
  17. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Belief beyond reason applies, but faith beyond reason is an oxymoron. Faith comes from reason and is a means to an end. Faith based belief can be either of these depending upon who you are talking about. One person is taught from childhood that belief is everything even in the face of reality. Another is taught that faith is meant to change reality. They are two different things. One is affected by rational conversations, yes.
     
  18. ReluctantMathematician

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    You are the one talking about miracles, and I didn't want to assume you believed that was a miracle without asking first.

    But, at any rate, how can a person believe in a miracle that they never witnessed and is said to have happened thousands of years ago (such as Jesus walking on water) if not by faith?
     
  19. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    It is by faith. That's what I was getting at when I said miracles don't really exist outside of religious contexts. A miracle is a temporary suspension of the natural law, hence why calling childbirth a miracle is only used as hyperbole.
     
  20. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Logic and reason only ever work on some set of underlying assumptions. In math, these are usually the assumptions of set theory. In the sciences, we have the assumptions related to testability vs knowledge.

    But, any logical system that is strong enough to talk about the counting numbers (and has some other simple conditions) will have statements that can be neither proved nor disproved.

    When it comes to resolving those questions, logic and reason alone cannot help. In a sense, then, there must be a 'leap of faith' whenever the original axiom system is extended. Logic can then take over, with the additional assumptions, to derive new results.

    It may well be that religious questions are simply independent of other questions about existence, especially those leading to science. If that is the case, there is freedom *logically* to either assume or deny such questions. It is no longer a logical matter. it is then a question of which of various assumptions meet the needs for the ones making the assumptions.
     
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