Do you understand Religion, or do you think you understand Religion

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Your understanding is similar to mine, but i still bethe different religions will stay separated

I interpreted it the way that Tony seems to have interpreted as well, but I also agree with you, that the Qur'an seems to say that there will be different religions and they will remain separated.

Here is an example:

Actually, now that I think about it, I know a great deal about the Qur'an, if you ever have any questions, you can ask me, and also Fire Dragon knows a lot about the Qur'an and Classical Arabic so they are probably good for questions as well.

"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists (wallaziina ashrakuuu),- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God is witness of all things." 22:17

5:14
And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

So that verse gave me the impression that up until the Day of Judgment, the end of this Earth, there will still be Christians around, but maybe I'm reading it wrong.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I could be wrong, but i do think its only is meant to count for muslims

Could you elaborate a little on how you mean that? I mean, that whole verse, including the part about "to each we have made a law and a method", refers only to Muslims and not all the laws and methods in existence (which were also created by Allah, though not necessarily good). It is true anyway though that whatever the Qur'an says is literally only for Muslims, as the book is only for those who believe and not for anyone who doesn't believe, and by believe it seems to mean those who believe in everything the Qur'an says as true and good advice from God.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Could you elaborate a little on how you mean that? I mean, that whole verse, including the part about "to each we have made a law and a method", refers only to Muslims and not all the laws and methods in existence (which were also created by Allah, though not necessarily good). It is true anyway though that whatever the Qur'an says is literally only for Muslims, as the book is only for those who believe and not for anyone who doesn't believe, and by believe it seems to mean those who believe in everything the Qur'an says as true and good advice from God.

You i do believe that if a person say I believe in the teaching of Allah through Muhammed and they follow the Qur'an, you are an muslim. ( praying also)
So the teaching in the Qur'an is for those who can ve called Muslims, but as you are aware of i see, is that the Jewish and Christian teachings are also seen as true teaching from God. Atleast that is how i understand it now. Maybe in time my understanding will change a little.

But the teaching in Qur'an it self and the different rules only apply to muslims, not to Christian or Jewish umm a thought just hit me when i writing this answer.....

Could it be that Torah and bible is the old teaching and Qur'an is the new teaching ment for all Muslims, Christians and Jews i must study more....

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

You i do believe that if a person say I believe in the teaching of Allah through Muhammed and they follow the Qur'an, you are an muslim. ( praying also)
So the teaching in the Qur'an is for those who can ve called Muslims, but as you are aware of i see, is that the Jewish and Christian teachings are also seen as true teaching from God. Atleast that is how i understand it now. Maybe in time my understanding will change a little.

But the teaching in Qur'an it self and the different rules only apply to muslims, not to Christian or Jewish umm a thought just hit me when i writing this answer.....

Could it be that Torah and bible is the old teaching and Qur'an is the new teaching ment for all Muslims, Christians and Jews i must study more....

I think that view is likely mostly, if not entirely, compatible with the statements made inside the Qur'an, but the Qur'an says some things which take issue to both Jews and Christians.

Mainly, the Qur'an claims that Allah is responsible for the creation of the Jewish way and the Christian way, but did not authorize or officially tell the Jews to follow all the traditions that they believe in and hold to or the Christians.

So the Qur'an's Allah takes credit for literally everything in existence, good or bad, but seems to make a distinction between what is "officially authorized as a commandment or law from God" and what is not really such (even though it takes credit for even the handiwork and inventions of human beings, whether good or evil, or leading to their doom or not). This view is actually not too different from views presented in the Bible itself, where the Biblical God claims that "I put the lies into the mouths of your prophets" and other things, like who is good or bad, kills or doesn't, and who, etc.

The Qur'an claims that the Jews and the Christians were both given a correct and good message, law, and method, one that is generally believed to be identical or very close at least to that of the Muslim way found in the Qur'an, but that the Jews twisted and corrupted the message and distorted it through generations of scribal tom-foolery and manipulation (as it seems to state in the Bible as well in Jeremiah 9:9). The Qur'an says that the Christians are also very close to the Muslims in their religion, but that there are many of them (or most now) who exaggerate by stating that Jesus is God or God's Begotten Son and that Mary is the Mother of God and things like that. The Qur'an says that all these religious groups and religions are acceptable so long as they are basically monotheistic, good, and worship God alone and do not exaggerate or say these things which are considered blasphemous or false. It claims the Jewish traditions were made up by the Jewish people and were not things that they were told by God that they had to do, and that Jesus was sent to correct them regarding this but they attempted to kill him, and that the Christians thereafter made exaggerations that he was God and divine and all that which is a terrible blasphemy in the view of the Qur'an.

The Qur'an seems to suggest that a person who is a good Jew or a good Christian is automatically a Muslim or following Islam if they worship God alone and do good (but very few even seem to worship in the Ancient fashion that was more common and popular in the past, which is now mostly only practiced by Muslims), but if they slander the prophets (as the Bible seems full of things which can be considered very slanderous stories about the Prophets which the Qur'an seems to deny were ever real or true and omits entirely, while calling the Jews fabricators and the books somewhat fabrications) or make exaggerations (like the Christians and their Trinity), then they are not doing good but are harming themselves and others and their future state of being (since it is suggested that they will be be penalized for these sorts of misdeeds).

So the Qur'an, as you will read it, seems to give a message that Allah has throughout history given all humans the correct teaching and message for them and their cultures which resembled Islam in the Qur'an and the Qur'anic teaching supposedly.

These were each corrupted, and the people were eventually destroyed.

The Jews and the Christians were also given the correct message, which they each distorted and corrupted.

The Qur'an came to correct all these people and provide the message one last time in a way that will make it available until the Judgment Day.

The Qur'an also predicts that some of the Muslims will be diverted by fabrications and convincing discourses and stories which will confuse and lead a portion of them away from the Qur'an and its message, and that this is Allah's will, since Allah is doing all this manipulating and sorting out who ends up where and what.

None of this is left to Chance, unless Chance is another word for God's Determination/Decision.

So that the girl and Islam came into your life, is according to the Qur'an, God's test (like a chemical test which brings out or makes manifest results, not a test to see, but a test which generates results or makes manifest one's true colors), and no one has actual control on what ends up being their mind's decision or conclusion, and God might just as easily turn a person from Islam (which it claims would be to the immediate and/or eventual detriment of the person).

The Qur'an suggests that when the message of the Qur'an reaches a Jew or a Christian, and they reject it, it may well be that they were tested, and it may well be that it was demonstrated that they are somehow against the Qur'an and its message, but it also may be that they are permitted to continue their practices and succeed through them, one can not know for certain what their true fate will be, even though the Qur'an heavily suggests that they will most likely be destroyed repeatedly in hell forever and that only evil people are made to reject the Qur'an and its message.

As you read through it though, see what message and ideas appear to come out and pop out more strongly to you. The Qur'an is a very unique book and experience with the way it is written, and it almost seems to speak to the person reading it, and gives the feeling or impression to some that God is actually talking to the person. Some people even open it up randomly anywhere and it seems to answer their questions almost magically.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

You may like what I wrote here as well:
Biblical comparison Quran 42:13

That post includes quotes which talk about the former revelations and may help you with some of the ideas you're thinking about and working on just now!

 

[wandering peacefully]

Many people in RF holds a belief in one Religion or an other.
Many people in RF do not hold a belief in Religion.

1: Are you sure you understand what Religion really is, and what is needed to be done to gain full effect of the practice ?

2: Or do you think you know what Religion really is about, but do not see the need to practice any of it to know and understand?

I understand what religion is for. It is the most comfortable solution and seemingly divine instructions to life's most difficult unanswerable questions.

I understand why people choose whatever religious beliefs they choose, for the most part. It makes them feel there is sense to a senseless existence.

What I cannot understand is how people can accept cognitive disorder over available reasoning and known fact for the solution to the problems and questions.

How does one choose what they have experienced on their own and what science has discovered ?

What is it about a belief which causes a person to be capable of accepting a belief over known facts?

I always have to return to the comfort aspect.
What is there beyond comfort that makes a person choose other's beliefs for their own comfort?

What is the purpose of religions beliefs beyond comfort for themselves, the believers?

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Religion is a personal practice between the believer and God, no need to convince non believers, you are the only one who can change your own belief, i can not change it for you.

All i think of is how i can practice better every day the belief i hold.

I think life should be about mastering our days if we can, making them full of good and minimizing troubles and evils we make or experience if possible. I think religion is a way one can enhance one's life and should encourage that mission to improve our lives and experiences, and beyond that, are supposed to be helpful for our state after our lives as well. Every religion that I know of seems to speak of not only this world, but what comes after or is expected after, and everyone seemed to want their existence to be extended in a blissful state of some sort after their life, and so they believed by righteous conduct or goodness or greatness, they may be granted a state of immortal bliss and joy or pleasures of some sort, rather than the suffering of being some sorry and miserable shade.

I think that religion is all about oneself, maybe a bit about our loved ones as well, but mainly about what we do in our days and how to achieve a good state now and later.

So my suggestion is to surround yourself with pleasure and beauty, eradicate what you can of stressors and irritations, keep your body cleansed and feeling good everywhere and smelling good everywhere, and have great days full of saying good things, doing good things, seeing good things, feeling good things, eating good things, smelling good things, immersing all your senses and being surrounded by almost entirely good things, and then when you face bad things, to do so in a way that at least tries to turn the situation into a good things, like a good lesson, or some sort of benefit out of everything if its possible, turning even unpleasant things into something nice.

There are only roughly like 14 or 15 or 16 waking hours for people in a day, with chunks of the day taken up with tasks like going to the bathroom, hygiene tasks like brushing the teeth and bathing, and other chunks taken up by tasks like preparing food and eating, maybe exercising or doing some sort of work, then amusements and entertaining oneself if one has the time and leisure and luxury for that (which they really should, and if they don't, this may be a cause for concern), and space then also given to prayer or worship and meditations and whatever else. People then also have to occasionally go to the stores to get supplies or otherwise order it in, or they get their groceries or meet with family and friends or attend meetings and appointments or groups or services. The rest of the time is spent sleeping, for hours and hours if one has a healthy sleep schedule (supposedly best matching up with the light schedule outside and the bodies circadian rhythm).

In between all that self-care, there pop up opportunities, online or offline, during work or travel or even while at home like if one is tested with a bug that one can cruelly kill or instead be gentle with (understanding that it is like you, seeking food and life and bounty from the reality) it and taking it outside if it is likely to survive out there and not die from the cold or something. That is just an example, but the point was that even at home while all alone seemingly, there are opportunities to accumulate merit or "good points" through deeds, behaviors, decisions, actions, self-care, kindnesses to oneself or creatures or plants around, lots of things. Supposedly, no matter what happens or wherever one is, so long as they are experiencing (and almost like a video game) opportunities will pop up which will be trials or tests or rather opportunities to do good or evil and which manifest bit by bit the ongoing character of a person as they continue to come into being until their deaths.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I understand what religion is for. It is the most comfortable solution and seemingly divine instructions to life's most difficult unanswerable questions.

I understand why people choose whatever religious beliefs they choose, for the most part. It makes them feel there is sense to a senseless existence.

What I cannot understand is how people can accept cognitive disorder over available reasoning and known fact for the solution to the problems and questions.

How does one choose what they have experienced on their own and what science has discovered ?

What is it about a belief which causes a person to be capable of accepting a belief over known facts?

I always have to return to the comfort aspect.
What is there beyond comfort that makes a person choose other's beliefs for their own comfort?

What is the purpose of religions beliefs beyond comfort for themselves, the believers?

I agree with the comfort theory. People fear death and death makes them extremely disturbed and uncomfortable. Religions generally give people a feeling or idea that they may have a chance after their deaths to continue to exist and live, and also it gives people hope that those things they were unable to achieve or have in this life, during their lifetime, may finally be theirs after their death, such as a comfortable life or happy existence. I am very glad for this hope, even if entirely false, because I'd rather live and exist comfortably believing that wrongs will be made right when I can't easily personally resolve so many things, and so a supernatural party which is responsible takes off some of the pressure regarding getting back all the things I've lost or responding to every slight or perceived crime committed against me or my family etc. There are numerous potential benefits to religions and some religious thinking and hope, even if false or unproven or unprovable.

 

[Willamena]

Many people in RF holds a belief in one Religion or an other.
Many people in RF do not hold a belief in Religion.

1: Are you sure you understand what Religion really is, and what is needed to be done to gain full effect of the practice ?

2: Or do you think you know what Religion really is about, but do not see the need to practice any of it to know and understand?

I don't understand religion at all, nor do I see a need to practice it.

I just understand God.

 

[wandering peacefully]

I agree with the comfort theory. People fear death and death makes them extremely disturbed and uncomfortable. Religions generally give people a feeling or idea that they may have a chance after their deaths to continue to exist and live, and also it gives people hope that those things they were unable to achieve or have in this life, during their lifetime, may finally be theirs after their death, such as a comfortable life or happy existence. I am very glad for this hope, even if entirely false, because I'd rather live and exist comfortably believing that wrongs will be made right when I can't easily personally resolve so many things, and so a supernatural party which is responsible takes off some of the pressure regarding getting back all the things I've lost or responding to every slight or perceived crime committed against me or my family etc. There are numerous potential benefits to religions and some religious thinking and hope, even if false or unproven or unprovable.

I agree with your assessment of the benefits of religious beliefs. I am always glad for people who can find comfort in their personal lives through their beleifs. With the caveat of course, they can keep it real for themselves and not impose it on others or ignore science or claim some type of universal truth.

It sounds as though we agree with this. Death sucks for the living. So one of the major benefits of belief is the belief that death is not actually being physically and biologically dead. That there really is a justice for those who suffer at the hands of others and that all will be well after this life filled with sorrows. The belief that we will live in some type of eternal bliss connected together as one with all those we love now, in some spiritual realm.

It does make for a comfortable view on death, but there has to be more than this to explain belief in a set of beliefs various sects of religions. I wonder what those reasons are? Beyond comfort in general? Or is that really the bottom line?

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I don't understand religion at all, nor do I see a need to practice it.

I just understand God.

What is God or what do you understand about God?

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I agree with your assessment of the benefits of religious beliefs. I am always glad for people who can find comfort in their personal lives through their beleifs. With the caveat of course, they can keep it real for themselves and not impose it on others or ignore science or claim some type of universal truth.

It sounds as though we agree with this. Death sucks for the living. So one of the major benefits of belief is the belief that death is not actually being physically and biologically dead. That there really is a justice for those who suffer at the hands of others and that all will be well after this life filled with sorrows. The belief that we will live in some type of eternal bliss connected together as one with all those we love now, in some spiritual realm.

It does make for a comfortable view on death, but there has to be more than this to explain belief in a set of beliefs various sects of religions. I wonder what those reasons are? Beyond comfort in general? Or is that really the bottom line?

I think groups, especially when status or profit is involved, have to find ways to distinguish themselves in order to control populations or direct the funds and donations and whatever else to particular channels and organizations and individuals, so they might be motivated to distinguish themselves in certain ways by having their own dress up style, their own laws, their own leaders or ranks and levels and hierarchies and books and all that, so that people know where to go and who to trust and where to send the checks. Just a theory.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I understand what religion is for. It is the most comfortable solution and seemingly divine instructions to life's most difficult unanswerable questions.

I understand why people choose whatever religious beliefs they choose, for the most part. It makes them feel there is sense to a senseless existence.

What I cannot understand is how people can accept cognitive disorder over available reasoning and known fact for the solution to the problems and questions.

How does one choose what they have experienced on their own and what science has discovered ?

What is it about a belief which causes a person to be capable of accepting a belief over known facts?

I always have to return to the comfort aspect.
What is there beyond comfort that makes a person choose other's beliefs for their own comfort?

What is the purpose of religions beliefs beyond comfort for themselves, the believers?

Speaking only for my self.
This life as human being is not what i seek, I seek the life in heaven after this life, and to get there, the only true answer is through religious practice.
Science to me is not telling the truth, it is only talking about this physical world, and i see no truth in it, no God or salvation in this physical world.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So you decide how a Muslim must understand the Quran!

No. I just read the quran and listened to muslims.

What is your evidence for the fact, that you can decide that?

I don't need evidence for things I'm not doing.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If you look at what other muslims in RF say about their understanding of the Qur'an it may be somewhat different then my understanding, because they have been muslinger then me, i am in training to understand all what the actually say, ans what it means.
That does not make the Qur'an a false teaching, it only means my understanding is not on a very high level yet.
But as long i do my best to practice according to Islam, i am doing it right.

If i wasvto listen to non muslims and what they think it should be to practice Islam, then it would be better to stop posting.

All this is besides the point that I raised.

It's very simple.

For Islam to be right, the other religions must necessarily be wrong. ie: false.
So for you to "refuse" to tell a catholic or a hindu that he follows a "false teaching", has no bearing on the point that the religion you do follow DOES consider those to be "false teachings".

It's not rocket science. It's in fact simple deduction.

From the quran's perspective, polytheism is a false teaching.
From the quran's perspective, catholicism and the trinity is a false teaching.

Find me a muslim who follows the quran and doesn't consider polytheism to be a false teaching

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What is your understanding of "Polytheism" as cited in the Quran?

Worshipping false gods is one of the biggest sins.
So being a polytheist is to engage in one of the biggest sins.

It's called Shirk. But I'm sure you know that. I suspect you're just preparing another apologetic to go either into denial mode or to start bickering about translations again. Amirite?

Maybe cut it short and you can enlighten us all and tell us what shirk is all about.

 

[firedragon]

Worshipping false gods is one of the biggest sins.
So being a polytheist is to engage in one of the biggest sins.

It's called Shirk. But I'm sure you know that. I suspect you're just preparing another apologetic to go either into denial mode or to start bickering about translations again. Amirite?

Maybe cut it short and you can enlighten us all and tell us what shirk is all about.

Well. You are correct but with a lot of limitations. Thanks for your assumption that everyone else is dishonest and are preparing for apologetics etc etc maybe due to your uninformed status. Maybe similar to your personal assumption that any man who takes responsibility to his family and their happiness naturally means his wife is a gold digger.

Nevertheless I will tell you about the so called "Shirk" and "Mushrikeen" in the Quran.

Shirk is to worship anything other than God. If you worship money, that's shirk. If you worship your own ego/wishful thinking/desire etc, it is shirk.

Thus, if someone has stolen your land, or has cheated you out of a treaty you made with another state and their leaders, that is shirk and are called Mushrikeen.

).

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No. I just read the quran and listened to muslims.
...

So you interpret the Quran in certain manner and have listened to all Muslims. Well, the latter is falsifiable, because all it requires is that I find one Muslim, which contradicts your and the Muslims', you have listened to, interpretations.

Do you think that is possible?

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

All this is besides the point that I raised.

It's very simple.

For Islam to be right, the other religions must necessarily be wrong. ie: false.
So for you to "refuse" to tell a catholic or a hindu that he follows a "false teaching", has no bearing on the point that the religion you do follow DOES consider those to be "false teachings".

It's not rocket science. It's in fact simple deduction.

From the quran's perspective, polytheism is a false teaching.
From the quran's perspective, catholicism and the trinity is a false teaching.

Find me a muslim who follows the quran and doesn't consider polytheism to be a false teaching

Yeah, you're right, the Qur'an is pretty explicit about letting people know very clearly and repeatedly that literal poly-theism, the belief in a multitude of gods and powerful beings sharing in power and influence over things, and the worship of any god or gods other than the One God is completely forbidden and condemned, and that if anyone at all does this, they are basically told that their likelihood of burning in hell is very high.

People can get around it in some ways, like by saying all the gods are epithets or symbols or names or representing areas of influence of the One singular God, but then that isn't really polytheism, its monotheism really.

The Qur'an also rejects the Catholic dogma of Jesus as God's only begotten son and God being a part of the trinity, but people might be able to get around that one by saying that Jesus is not literally God's biological son but only symbolically, and that God is only symbolically three in one and one with three or more manifest attributes or something, but its cutting it close. The Qur'an seems to object mainly to people saying that God is One of the Three, or Three individuals, or One of the Three individuals or something. I think all that Christian theology stuff is indeed unnecessary and confusing and should be basically put in the bin (trash bin) in place of something much more simple and straightforward, which is just that there is God, pray to and worship God as there is nothing else to pray to or worship that can really do anything since God is whatever controls our experiences, and be ethical and decent and homo-superior and see if it gets you a treat later.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

... in place of something much more simple and straightforward, which is just that there is God, pray to and worship God as there is nothing else to pray to or worship that can really do anything since God is whatever controls our experiences, and be ethical and decent and homo-superior and see if it gets you a treat later.

Well, if we only could agree on what it means to pray and worship God in the really correct manner, you might have a point. But to me that is not that simple and straightforward as you seem to think it is.