Do you understand Religion, or do you think you understand Religion

[TagliatelliMonster]

Religion is a personal practice between the believer and God, no need to convince non believers, you are the only one who can change your own belief, i can not change it for you

Off course you can change my beliefs.
Einstein changed every physicist's belief about physics.
He did it by sharing his claims and then providing the evidence in support of it.

All i think of is how i can practice better every day the belief i hold.

Sure. But your OP was not about that.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I did, but you see Islam different than what i do.

Why so obsessed with telling believers what they should believe according to you? You dont even believe in any religion

I'm just pointing out obvious contradictions.
I don't need to be a muslim to know that the quran isn't too kind on polytheism.
I don't need to be a muslim to know that the quran considers the christian trinity to be polytheism.
I don't need to be a muslim to know what the quran thinks of idolatry.

Catholics are "guilty" of these things. Regardless of what it says about the "people of the book", there is no doubt here that the quran considers trinity christianity, hinduism etc as being falsehoods.

As a muslim, you are required to believe the quran is perfect and true in every sense.
From this follows, that as a muslim, you must necessarily believe that hindu's and catholics follow false teachings.

Either that, or you are at odds with the quran.

This is not a question of "interpretation".
If the quran is correct and true, then hinduism and catholicism must necessarily be false.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Sure. But your OP was not about that.

I'm just pointing out obvious contradictions.
I don't need to be a muslim to know that the quran isn't too kind on polytheism.
I don't need to be a muslim to know that the quran considers the christian trinity to be polytheism.
I don't need to be a muslim to know what the quran thinks of idolatry.

Catholics are "guilty" of these things. Regardless of what it says about the "people of the book", there is no doubt here that the quran considers trinity christianity, hinduism etc as being falsehoods.

As a muslim, you are required to believe the quran is perfect and true in every sense.
From this follows, that as a muslim, you must necessarily believe that hindu's and catholics follow false teachings.

Either that, or you are at odds with the quran.

This is not a question of "interpretation".
If the quran is correct and true, then hinduism and catholicism must necessarily be false.

The Qur'an is the correct teaching for muslims.
I can not speak for other religions, just because Allah tell me to only follow his teaching does not mean i should discreditt other beliefs.
It means to be a muslim, Allah is the only God to listen to and pray to.

If you think differently that is up to you.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The Qur'an is the correct teaching for muslims.
I can not speak for other religions, just because Allah tell me to only follow his teaching does not mean i should discreditt other beliefs.
It means to be a muslim, Allah is the only God to listen to and pray to.

If you think differently that is up to you.

What I think is irrelevant.
It's your quran that disagrees.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...
As a muslim, you are required to believe the quran is perfect and true in every sense.
...

How do you know that? Remember I require evidence as per your standard.

 

[Spirit of Light]

What I think is irrelevant.
It's your quran that disagrees.

So if it is irrelevant to you, why do you keep telling me what is your opinion about the teaching i believe in? Why care so much if you do not care?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

How do you know that? Remember I require evidence as per your standard.

The quran itself says it.
It even issues the reader with a challenge to produce something like it, in an attempt to drive that point home, to "demonstrate" that it must be of non-human origins since no human can produce something "so perfect" - only Allah can.

It isn't exactly a secret that this is one of the core beliefs of islam.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So if it is irrelevant to you

That's not what I said.
I said that what I think is irrelevant to what the quran says.

It is irrelevant to the point I raised.

I didn't say it is irrelevant to me. Because it isn't.

, why do you keep telling me what is your opinion about the teaching i believe in?

What your quran says, is not my mere opinion. It is, instead, what your quran says.

Why care so much if you do not care?

I care what my fellow earthly citizens believe and don't believe, because beliefs inform actions.
And other then that, discussing what various people believe and why is interesting enough by itself, so I don't feel like I actually require any additional reasons to have the conversation.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The quran itself says it.
It even issues the reader with a challenge to produce something like it, in an attempt to drive that point home, to "demonstrate" that it must be of non-human origins since no human can produce something "so perfect" - only Allah can.

It isn't exactly a secret that this is one of the core beliefs of islam.

So you decide how a Muslim must understand the Quran! What is your evidence for the fact, that you can decide that?

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's not what I said.
I said that what I think is irrelevant to what the quran says.

It is irrelevant to the point I raised.

I didn't say it is irrelevant to me. Because it isn't.



What your quran says, is not my mere opinion. It is, instead, what your quran says.



I care what my fellow earthly citizens believe and don't believe, because beliefs inform actions.
And other then that, discussing what various people believe and why is interesting enough by itself, so I don't feel like I actually require any additional reasons to have the conversation.

If you look at what other muslims in RF say about their understanding of the Qur'an it may be somewhat different then my understanding, because they have been muslinger then me, i am in training to understand all what the actually say, ans what it means.
That does not make the Qur'an a false teaching, it only means my understanding is not on a very high level yet.
But as long i do my best to practice according to Islam, i am doing it right.

If i wasvto listen to non muslims and what they think it should be to practice Islam, then it would be better to stop posting.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

@The Artis Magistra what you perceive as passive aggression is really me trying to understand a person, and reason with that person.

I really am trying to do so in a nice way.
However, I find it is often not that easy, when persons apparently are so defensive, and ....
You see, I usually hold back from speaking my mind on certain things... unless I strongly believe you need to hear it. Otherwise, I keep quiet about it.

That's not cowardly, imo. I view it as avoiding further tension, if I realize the person has already taken the defensive.
I would consider it cowardly, when one is not "always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have" - 1 Peter 3:15
To me, that s saying that one just wants to be comfortable with what they believe, and they don't take it lightly for anyone whom might make them feel uncomfortable about it.
So it bothers them, and they can't speak kindly to that person anymore... In fact they stop speaking to the person.

The person has not attacked them, or is not seeking to do them harm. In fact, I think rather than take offense at what someone says, the wise thing to do, is consider, if that person is trying to help, because they have your best interest at heart, rather than assume the person has set out to damage you. (Ecclesiastes 7:9)

However, none of this is new to me. I know how people guard the religion they prefer - not because they know it is the truth (most people don't even believe that is attainable),but because it suits them... as was mentioned.

So like I said before... no need to repeat it , I have been enlightened.

Now. are you finished, or do you want to continue your rant. By the way, don't you think you are bullying...? ...but if you feel justified...
Also, it's your prerogative to believe / feel / think what you like. Those never reveal the real truth.

I can't think of anything more that I want to say on this, so... Have a good day, and take care.

Thank you very much! I think it is likely true that people have an agenda and protect their various groups that they identify with, sometimes even lying about them, or making underhanded or hubristic comments towards others. I'm not part of any group though myself, and I don't consider human beings to be very noble folks in general, and I consider their religions often just another excuse for them to be as rotten as they possibly can be. I just didn't like the idea that you might be of a certain opinion or faction (Jehovah Name User Faction) and sort of teasing and getting on the case of someone who is part of another faction (Allah Name User Faction) just because of your preference or whatever or prejudice against that group based on depictions on television or whatever, and then more disturbingly, thinking that I or others talking to you were part of their group or faction. I'm not. I believe in God, and I believe God knows who is trying to talk to God, regardless of the name used, so I'm part of the (Who cares what name is used faction, do you think God is a bloody idiot and can't tell apart who is calling God or not by any name or in any language?). That is my group, the group that is more about being realistically united in ethical behavior and devotion to God and fearing God's judgment than irritating people about what language they prefer or speak or names they use or mispronounce. Are you part of my group too now, or are you still particular about saying "Juh Ho Vah" and think that is the only name God responds to? How has God responded to that name for you in your experience? Do you think all those people claiming Allah was responded to are lying about their experiences? Or the Shiva ones?

 

[firedragon]

I don't need to be a muslim to know that the quran isn't too kind on polytheism.

What is your understanding of "Polytheism" as cited in the Quran?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If you look at what other muslims in RF say about their understanding of the Qur'an it may be somewhat different then my understanding, because they have been muslinger then me, i am in training to understand all what the actually say, ans what it means.
That does not make the Qur'an a false teaching, it only means my understanding is not on a very high level yet.
But as long i do my best to practice according to Islam, i am doing it right.

If i wasvto listen to non muslims and what they think it should be to practice Islam, then it would be better to stop posting.

As a non-Muslim I can't tell you how to read the Qur'an, but I can tell that there are different schools of how to read it. So if you find a small group of Muslims to learn from, it is not certain that what they tell you is the only way to do it.

 

[Spirit of Light]

As a non-Muslim I can't tell you how to read the Qur'an, but I can tell that there are different schools of how to read it. So if you find a small group of Muslims to learn from, it is not certain that what they tell you is the only way to do it.

Of course, they will have their own understanding of the words in the Qur'an, so when studying, it is a lot of searching in the beginning, to find the teaching that sound the most similar to the words in the Qur'an and then when speaking with others, its important to ask questions ( muslim to muslim)

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

The Qur'an is the correct teaching for muslims.
I can not speak for other religions, just because Allah tell me to only follow his teaching does not mean i should discreditt other beliefs.
It means to be a muslim, Allah is the only God to listen to and pray to.

If you think differently that is up to you.

5:48
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

Allah in the Qur'an seems to take credit for giving every different law and way.

The harmony of Qur'an and Torah - IslamiCity.

 

[Spirit of Light]

5:48
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

Allah in the Qur'an seems to take credit for giving every different law and way.

The harmony of Qur'an and Torah - IslamiCity.

In my understanding those words count for muslims, not for others.
But of course i can have wrong understanding

 

[TransmutingSoul]

5:48
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

Allah in the Qur'an seems to take credit for giving every different law and way.

The harmony of Qur'an and Torah - IslamiCity.

@Amanaki

I see that passage is clear that Allah is saying that the Quran has verified all the past Books and laws that have come from Allah and that we should follow what Allah gives in the Book.

The judgement is our words and actions against what is written in those books.

I see that passage is preparing us for a day when all books and all ways will become One Way. The Quran opened our minds to One God and full submission to the Will of Allah.

Regards Tony

 

[Spirit of Light]

@Amanaki

I see that passage is clear that Allah is saying that the Quran has verified all the past Books and laws that have come from Allah and that we should follow what Allah gives in the Book.

The judgement is our words and actions against what is written in those books.

I see that passage is preparing us for a day when all books and all ways will become One Way. The Quran opened our minds to One God and full submission to the Will of Allah.

Regards Tony

Your understanding is similar to mine, but i still bethe different religions will stay separated

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

In my understanding those words count for muslims, not for others.
But of course i can have wrong understanding

Oh, I thought the Qur'an was saying that to every people and nation God has appointed a law and a way, and then they are meant to compete in their good works and differ and then the results are given on the Judgment day.

2:143
And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people.

So in the Qur'an, it seems to me that it says that Allah makes some people Muslims, some people other things, gives to every nation or group a time period or term of existence which they can not exceed or change, and determines who is born into whichever conditions in every detail or who becomes this or that, and once all these factors are in place, the will of God plays out and is made manifest through every moment, who is the hero, who is the villain, and a million stories in each setting with the particular conditions.

The Qur'an seems to also say that the skin color of people, their nationality and ethnicity, their choices and what comes to them in a day, even what they eat or what they make with their own hands are actually generated by Allah and Allah's doing, and so that being a Muslim or not is only God's choice which can just as easily be stripped from anyone overtly or in their hearts/minds. That every nation and group had the message made available to them in some way (even before Muhammed or the Qur'an), and that every tradition, every difference, every law, every way, every culture, every sect, was generated by God and all the differences, and that God willed it to be so so that each vies and competes with one another in good works to demonstrate which is the best of all.

Maybe it only refers to the differences among Muslims only though.

5:48 says ... "To each of you We prescribed a law and a method." ... I thought that meant each of the different views and religions of humanity.

"The same religion He has established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that you should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which you call them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him). (Quran 42:13)

So, I think that when it is saying "You" in the Qur'an, it is talking to Muhammed, and by extension the Muslim people or Believers who are like him too, and when it says "To each of you" it is either talking to all the differing Muslims like you've said, or otherwise as I took it (and I think as it has been understood by others) to mean all the varieties of peoples, such as the Christians, Jews, etc, who all have their own ways and methods and traditions but each of them are trying to please God and benefit themselves spiritually and prosper in this life and any other. The interesting thing though, is with my interpretation, God takes credit for creating all the varieties of religions or "laws and methods" or whatever, and Islam was just one of them that was given to people who become interested in it.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Oh, I thought the Qur'an was saying that to every people and nation God has appointed a law and a way, and then they are meant to compete in their good works and differ and then the results are given on the Judgment day.

2:143
And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people.

So in the Qur'an, it seems to me that it says that Allah makes some people Muslims, some people other things, gives to every nation or group a time period or term of existence which they can not exceed or change, and determines who is born into whichever conditions in every detail or who becomes this or that, and once all these factors are in place, the will of God plays out and is made manifest through every moment, who is the hero, who is the villain, and a million stories in each setting with the particular conditions.

The Qur'an seems to also say that the skin color of people, their nationality and ethnicity, their choices and what comes to them in a day, even what they eat or what they make with their own hands are actually generated by Allah and Allah's doing, and so that being a Muslim or not is only God's choice which can just as easily be stripped from anyone overtly or in their hearts/minds. That every nation and group had the message made available to them in some way (even before Muhammed or the Qur'an), and that every tradition, every difference, every law, every way, every culture, every sect, was generated by God and all the differences, and that God willed it to be so so that each vies and competes with one another in good works to demonstrate which is the best of all.

Maybe it only refers to the differences among Muslims only though.

5:48 says ... "To each of you We prescribed a law and a method." ... I thought that meant each of the different views and religions of humanity.

"The same religion He has established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that you should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which you call them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him). (Quran 42:13)

So, I think that when it is saying "You" in the Qur'an, it is talking to Muhammed, and by extension the Muslim people or Believers who are like him too, and when it says "To each of you" it is either talking to all the differing Muslims like you've said, or otherwise as I took it (and I think as it has been understood by others) to mean all the varieties of peoples, such as the Christians, Jews, etc, who all have their own ways and methods and traditions but each of them are trying to please God and benefit themselves spiritually and prosper in this life and any other. The interesting thing though, is with my interpretation, God takes credit for creating all the varieties of religions or "laws and methods" or whatever, and Islam was just one of them that was given to people who become interested in it.

I could be wrong, but i do think its only is meant to count for muslims