Everlasting life: does it matter?

[Unveiled Artist]

Very interesting insights here. Thanks for explaining your thoughts.

I've heard the idea that genetic memory could be a thing. That our experiences are passed through our descendents somehow. I don't see enough evidence yet to believe that, though it is an interesting thought. It would make sense considering some of the recurring dreams I've had in the past.

I've heard something like that that made me mean towards rebirth.

CORDIS | European Commission

If I believed in the afterlife, it would be eastern. Not an afterlife but continued life and progress to a better present state of being not destination.

I do believe the energies of people and love ones are present yesterday, today, and in the future. But my logical brain says that's it.

 

[stvdv]

How do you deal with the inevetability of your end?

When I was ca. 10 years old, whenever someone died, I wanted to go and see (and I did). Also I was checking if my great-grandmother was really dead. And when my grandmother died she even asked me "I remember you checked on my mother if she was really dead, I would like if you also check on me, because I don't want to be buried alive". So, I did.

Is it something you fear?
Is it something you embrace?

No, I have been very close to dying for 2 month. I did not fear to die. I did not even call for a doctor. I fully accepted "this is the end"

What is your philosophy, and how do your views on this topic shape your life?

My view on life is "We are born to not be born again". To realize who we really are; not this body, nor emotions, but we are Divine Atma. When we know this, there can not be fear of death, as the real "I" does not even die, it is just "our" body (we say "our", just contemplate "Who is it that owns the body?")

 

[Quintessence]

Has it occurred to you that the idea of persistence after death is about others rather than about the self?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I've heard the idea that genetic memory could be a thing. That our experiences are passed through our descendents somehow. I don't see enough evidence yet to believe that, ..

I do not think that is true, Sigurd. Even if this was there, humans have lost it in their evolution. As you said, there is no evidence.

Among Hindus, reincarnation was/is a social construct, a carrot and sword policy. Do good because it will get you a better birth. Do evil and you will be born as a worm. Now, every one wants to be born as a prince or a princess, or to have a father as rich as Jeff Bozos and Bill Gates, and no one wants to be born as a worm.

It would be terrible to see people exist that tire of life and live on. I never tire of life.

I see that you are only around 50 years of age. My mother is 98. She is OK for her age.

If I realized that we are nothing more than a molecular structure and cease to exist that would be very depressing, as well as heartbreaking.

So, you are in the denial mode. I understand,

 

[MonkeyFire]

If I believe there is no guarantee you "die," or even stay "dead." You will be turning in your grave on day one.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Imagine you have been given a bowl of your favourite food or you favourite music is playing ...

Just as you come to the end of the bowl it refills and you keep eating, again it refills and for ever refills - how long before you become bored and start to hate the food and want no more?
Or the music is coming to an end and it returns to the beginning and starts again, over and over - how long before you become bored and start to want it to end or change?

That's what I imagine everlasting life to be ... great for the first century or so but after that BORING then ANNOYING

As Twain would put it, a harp, a halo, and a hymm book.

 

[osgart]

Oh! I gotcha. I'm actually pretty ignorant when it comes to philosophy and it's terminology. Naturalism seems interesting to me, from the brief description I've read, though. I should look into it more.



Hmmm... I see. Our experiences are subjective for sure, and those things shape us into who we are. Some of them are good, and some of them are terrible. Personality disorders would be an example of how some are shaped by negative experiences.

I wonder, does this damage scar the soul as well? If not, why do only the positive experiences transfer to the soul?



How does the soul fit into this, then, and what is it's purpose?



Hmmm... I'm not sure I outright deny the existence of a soul. I'm curious to know about it. If anything, seeing evidence of it's existence would be exciting.

Forming one's life around it's existence when there isn't that evidence, though, is something I can't quite understand.



This sentence is a little confusing for me. Can't quite understand what you are trying to say, here. What is "the am?"



Ok. Tell me then what your thoughts would be after being heartbroken about it? What would your perspective then be?



So the inner life are your personality traits, it seems to me. Are these not subject to the bio chemical processes of the brain?

I knew a man who had a stroke. He became a new man after that happened. It was the most surreal thing ever. The stroke changed the way his mind was wired. He had to relearn how to do basic things, like speak and write. After he could do these things, we saw then just how different he had become.

He used to be kind and loving, and had the patience of a saint. He became angry, bitter, and impatient. He used to be emotionally stable. After the attack, he would cry out of frustration when things didn't happen the way he wanted, and he would laugh at people whenever they failed in some way. He kind of became a real nasty person; who he was changed fundamentally on every level. Now, the doctors said it was due to the way the biochemistry of his brain had changed. It had done perminant, irrevocable damage, and this was his new personality.

What happened to his soul in that moment, I wonder?



No worries!

Yah... No one likes being preached at.

I enjoy a world where people have differing opinions, personally. The more varying ideas that exist, the most avenues of thought there are to explore. To me, that's what I look forward to.

I know that my identity exists from first person experience. I don't need third person verification.

The soul must feel the physical environment from the brain. If that sense of physical environment is damaged then you won't be able to have comfort of the body. And on top of that having lost functionality of the brain my soul would go crazy.

It's an intimate connection brain, and soul. The soul has presence throughout the body. A damaged body can really torment the soul.

So if all consciousness is is brain function that gives experience. The experiencer is not consciousness then but a living identity called the soul.

I have dealt with ceasing to exist. But the only evidence of that is outward appearances. I have a whole inner life not subject to outward appearances.

Of identity I have heart, mind, and will. That does not fit into the framework of brain processes. How does a chemical or electron care about something; that makes no sense.

It makes no sense that a molecular configuration produces my identity. So I infer that identity is a something of existence apart from known physics.

If I had to live on earth as a forever human body being. That would be worse than death.

I suspect existence is at least fundamentally as intelligent as it is for a human being to exist. My intuition strongly indicates that existence is intelligent though not very efficient, nor design worthy.

So if we come from intellect, then intellect has an eternal source. My intuition is that it is impossible to be mindlessly put together. That is nonsense to me.

I can feel the sense of absence from losing a loved one. So I feel the idea of ceasing to exist someday. But I don't buy into it. I consider it illusion.

The concept of being alive runs deep, and is very purposeful in its existence. Without me adding purposes to it.

 

[Thief]

Sorry for going off on a tangent, heh.

yeah well.....philosophically speaking

it's not about philosophy

 

[SigurdReginson]

While the 'four score and ten' allotted to us seems too short, I don't think people yearning for everlasting life have really thought it through.

We tend to think in terms of years, or tens of years. We might think of everlasting life in those same terms, but it would not be. Sure, 10,000 years might be tolerable. But 1,000,000? How about a billion? A googol?

At some point, the length of time itself becomes torture. And, even a googolplex years is an instant in 'everlasting',

Yah... Imagine watching a movie that never ended, or listened to a song that just always played. Eventually you would want to get up and stretch your legs, or change the song to a different tune.

 

[SigurdReginson]

When I was ca. 10 years old, whenever someone died, I wanted to go and see (and I did). Also I was checking if my great-grandmother was really dead. And when my grandmother died she even asked me "I remember you checked on my mother if she was really dead, I would like if you also check on me, because I don't want to be buried alive". So, I did.


No, I have been very close to dying for 2 month. I did not fear to die. I did not even call for a doctor. I fully accepted "this is the end"


My view on life is "We are born to not be born again". To realize who we really are; not this body, nor emotions, but we are Divine Atma. When we know this, there can not be fear of death, as the real "I" does not even die, it is just "our" body (we say "our", just contemplate "Who is it that owns the body?")

Very interesting insight! thank you.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Has it occurred to you that the idea of persistence after death is about others rather than about the self?

Oh for sure... But even that seems to be based in selfishness. Maybe not ego centric selfishness, but people want to have that peace of mind that the things they care about are ok. It's self soothing.

When I was discussing death with my family, I informed them at that time that I would prefer to be cremated, and to have my ashes scattered. They told me that they wanted me to be burried so they could come visit my grave, and they wanted me to have a nice funeral. Memorial services aren't for the dead, they're for the loved ones to find closure.

Since then I've changed my mind. I'd rather be a cadavar for med students to work on, then burried with a tree planted on top of me. I'm not sure how likely the second part is, but it sounds nice to me.

 

[SigurdReginson]

yeah well.....philosophically speaking

it's not about philosophy

Hmmm... But whether or not you believe such a thing awaits you would absolutely change your approach to life, no? I know it did for me when I believed vs. now.

 

[SigurdReginson]

If I believe there is no guarantee you "die," or even stay "dead." You will be turning in your grave on day one.

You lost me. Maybe you could unpack this a little for me?

 

[Milton Platt]

People are drawn to the idea that they have no end; that they persist forever. Whether by spiritual or mundane means, they try.

Many religions promise immortality through their teachings; that their essence continues long after their physical shell shrivels away. Some people build monuments so their memory can persist long after they die. Others seek immortality through acts of fame. Authors write books hoping their works will stand the test of time. Sometimes parents build a foundation through business or estate so their children can continue the family line as well.

Is it fear of losing the ability to experience life? Is it fear of being forgotten? Is it fear that the things you work for in life will just be undone?

Religious promises of eternity are all just guesses with no tangile evidence at all outside of their teachings; they rely entirely on hope. Monuments fall, or real knowledge of the person who errected them fade over time. The person who seeks fame loses who he is as a person to the myth he wove around himself, until the myth is all that stands. Written works by people only show a glimpse of an echo of what someone thought when they wrote it. Children eventually give up family businesses, or they move away to start their own stories abroad.

One hundred years from now, I won't even be a memory. Should I be, though? What is so special about people that they should continue to persist? The desire to cling to existence comes across as unseemly to me, and smacks of self obsorbed vanity.

People want so much to be remembered, but we can never know them as a person on a personal level through the things they leave behind. They become just another picture on a bookshelf of a great great great grandfather who left behind a some letters and maybe a pocket watch.

Why is that such a terrifying thought, though? Why is it so bad to be forgotten? It happens to everyone in some shape or form. What's wrong with living in the here and now, and to make the utmost of your life while you have it?

Sorry for going off on a tangent, heh. I guess the point of all this are these questions: How do you deal with the inevetability of your end? Is it something you fear? Is it something you embrace? What is your philosophy, and how do your views on this topic shape your life?

I would guess it only matters if you actually have it. How do we determine that?

 

[SigurdReginson]

I know that my identity exists from first person experience. I don't need third person verification.

The soul must feel the physical environment from the brain. If that sense of physical environment is damaged then you won't be able to have comfort of the body. And on top of that having lost functionality of the brain my soul would go crazy.

It's an intimate connection brain, and soul. The soul has presence throughout the body. A damaged body can really torment the soul.

So if all consciousness is is brain function that gives experience. The experiencer is not consciousness then but a living identity called the soul.

I have dealt with ceasing to exist. But the only evidence of that is outward appearances. I have a whole inner life not subject to outward appearances.

Of identity I have heart, mind, and will. That does not fit into the framework of brain processes. How does a chemical or electron care about something; that makes no sense.

It makes no sense that a molecular configuration produces my identity. So I infer that identity is a something of existence apart from known physics.

If I had to live on earth as a forever human body being. That would be worse than death.

I suspect existence is at least fundamentally as intelligent as it is for a human being to exist. My intuition strongly indicates that existence is intelligent though not very efficient, nor design worthy.

So if we come from intellect, then intellect has an eternal source. My intuition is that it is impossible to be mindlessly put together. That is nonsense to me.

I can feel the sense of absence from losing a loved one. So I feel the idea of ceasing to exist someday. But I don't buy into it. I consider it illusion.

The concept of being alive runs deep, and is very purposeful in its existence. Without me adding purposes to it.

Hmmm... I see.

Thanks for your replies, and your insight.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I would guess it only matters if you actually have it. How do we determine that?

I disagree.

It also matters if people believe they have it as well. It shapes the way they behave.

 

[Milton Platt]

I disagree.

It also matters if people believe they have it as well. It shapes the way they behave.

Yeah, You are certainly right about that. I was only considering it in terms of worrying over something you might not even have.

 

[Quintessence]

Oh for sure... But even that seems to be based in selfishness. Maybe not ego centric selfishness, but people want to have that peace of mind that the things they care about are ok. It's self soothing.

I brought the question up because cultural ideas of the afterlife have a lot more to do with social bonding and cultural cohesion, even if they do also serve a role for individuals and ego. Ancestor worship, or honoring the relationships we've had with those close to us or important to us (or our community), is a cultural universal. The specific form that takes varies, but it all ultimately serves to affirm community identity and connections with those around us whether they are living or dead. Perhaps put another way, all of these ideologies about ancestors and death is a direct result of humans being social animals. Social bonds hold too much meaning for the species, and that's why persistence in those bonds matters if nothing else.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Yeah, You are certainly right about that. I was only considering it in terms of worrying over something you might not even have.

The scientific method is a reliable way to get answers, but it is limited. When there are so many blanks that science hasn't filled in yet, people like to fill them in themselves. They don't like incomplete sentences. They don't like to hear the words "I don't know."

The problem is that when you fill in the blanks, it's hard to erase them. They become internalized. They become a part of what you think and how you think. Any ideas and thoughts you make after that are colored by that new viewpoint from there on.

It also seems easy to confuse these viewpoints with life experiences, but they are both obtained in very different ways.

It's best to reserve judgement on unknown things until more evidence comes to light, IMO.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I brought the question up because cultural ideas of the afterlife have a lot more to do with social bonding and cultural cohesion, even if they do also serve a role for individuals and ego. Ancestor worship, or honoring the relationships we've had with those close to us or important to us (or our community), is a cultural universal. The specific form that takes varies, but it all ultimately serves to affirm community identity and connections with those around us whether they are living or dead. Perhaps put another way, all of these ideologies about ancestors and death is a direct result of humans being social animals. Social bonds hold too much meaning for the species, and that's why persistence in those bonds matters if nothing else.

Very beautifully put.

I agree. I do think it's important to honor folks that have passed, and to remember the effect they had on you. Grief is something people need to deal with. I still tear up when I think of those I've lost, because the world is at a loss without them to brighten it up. It's important for people to take time to heal the wounds loss can inflict on their hearts.

Even though I don't really care about what happens to me after I die, maybe I should be a little more mindful of my loved ones and their thoughts. Thanks for that.