Why did God create mortal bodies?

[Nimos]

Maybe the reason you do not have any such fears is because you do not believe there IS another life after this one.

The truth is I don't know, my assumption is that it is not the case. And even if it were the case, I have no way of knowing what it might be like, as I have no reliable informations from anywhere of how it might be.

Obviously I don't buy the religious explanations and it would be a very long explanation of why they don't make sense, so to keep it very short. I will just say that I don't believe that they are true

And since I don't do that, I have no reason to fear that im going to anything that reminds of hell or heaven. So I have no reason to believe or assume that a potential afterlife is bad or even better than what is now. And since there is no way for me to even speculate on what it could be, if there were one, I don't really see any reason to why I should fear it.

But I can understand certain religious people, that have been taught that they are going to be judged by God and if they weren't good enough they will be punished or they might not be part of all the nice things that they are promised. But to me this whole setup, as I believed I have tried to explain to you before, is simply that it is to easy to spot, that it is invented by humans as a way of controlling other people.
I know that you like free will etc. But if God really wanted people to have free will, the promise or concept of something like heaven and hell would not exist!! It is contradictory to the idea of free will. Anything that promise, either good or bad things in an afterlife, whatever they might be, is a scam in my eyes in regards to free will.

If I told you something like this: "Trailblazer, if you worship the almighty Razle, God of purity, in this life and do his biddings. Then he will take care of all your cats in the afterlife and you will get to see them all again. But if you don't... dear lord are they going to suffer horrible. But don't worry Razle gave you free will, to choose to love him as long as you do his biddings."

Not very different from how most religions sell their message.... you can't say something like this and talk about free will at the same time, it simply makes no sense.

That is not really any different from what I believe , since I do not believe God is going to DO anything, but rather humans will do everything that needs to be done in order to build the Kingdom of God on earth, also referred to as the New World Order.

You sound like your turning towards JWs?

So if you can't tell the difference between God not doing anything and him not existing, how come you reach the conclusion that it is more likely for him to exist than not? The only thing you are left with are the writing of Baha'u'llah and him as a person. Besides that you basically can't see God anywhere in the world, if I understood you correct?

If that is the case, I have to say that you put a lot of trust into a single person, given how many people before him have claimed to be a new Jesus, messiah, messenger or prophet of God. Which obviously must all have, either lied or been mistaken since you only accept that Baha'u'llah is the right one. Obviously you are religious, so almost all those that believe in whatever they believe in, does that. But to me, that is one of the things I don't like about religions, it makes people certain without evidence and i'm not a huge fan of that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am going to lay my cards right on the table. I am really angry at God because He created humans and animals with mortal bodies such that they will die. Why did God have to create humans and animals this way? If I think about it for very long I hate God for what He did, but what other choices did He have? I don’t know because I am not God, but is God is All-Knowing and All-Powerful so I tend to think it did not have to be this way. The more I type the angrier I become.

Obviously, God created it this way for a reason, so according to believers I am just supposed to accept that there was a reason and not complain, but I am going to complain because death has caused undue suffering for so many people, because there is nothing worse than losing a loved one, nothing.

I know that some Christians believe it was not supposed to be this way at least for humans, until Adam and Eve sinned, but I do not believe that bodies ever could have lived forever because they were not created to me immortal, so living forever in a physical body is absurd to me. But what is the other option? Death.

Now, let’s try to pretend that people are not afraid of dying.

If that is true, why all the fear of Covid-19, why the masks and social distancing, closing schools and businesses and basically shutting down economies all over the world? Let’s get real folks; people are terrified of death, even though most people believe in an afterlife. Most people enjoy life and they do not want to die, no matter how great heaven might be.

When Covid-19 first hit, I was not afraid at all, and I wondered why people were so fearful. I was never afraid because I am not afraid of my own death, since I have a pretty good idea where I am headed and I know it is not the end of me, but rather just a new beginning in another world, a world that is much better than this hellhole.

I am going to lay some more cards on the table. I have lost all my loved ones to death, first my father, then my sister and then my mother. I think my brother is still alive but I never talk to him anymore. I never had any children so all I have left is my husband, and he is 10 years older than me so he will probably die before I die. But that does not bother me as much as when my cats die because I know where my husband is going and I know I will see him again. I do not know where my cats are going, if anywhere, and I do not know if I will ever see my cats again because that was never revealed in any scriptures. Some people think it is in scriptures that animals have no spirit that lives on so they expire at death but that is just their interpretation.

I have lost so many cats in the last 23 years I have lost track of the number, but it is probably more than 30. If you want to you can blame me for having so many cats, but I already know I risk loss by having so many cats, I am not an idiot. So go ahead and blame me, I cannot feel much worse than I already feel. I know I run the risk of criticism by posting this, but it finally came down to this because I cannot go on like this anymore, feeling completely alone.

My husband is the only one who knows our situation and how I suffer and how it has nearly destroyed me so many times. But he does not really understand how I feel because he is very different when it comes to death and loss. He never even got sad or cried when either of his parents died, it was just like any other day; his only sister died about a week ago and he never got sad or cried. It is the same way when a cat dies. He is like a stone. I finally had to get a counselor again after five years of not having one, because it got so bad last January.

I am not going to go into any details about what happened to the cats or what has happened more recently because it is just too horrible, unimaginable. I will sometimes talk about it in private but only with people who want to know, people I trust. Unfortunately, nice as she is, by new counselor is not much help to me, but it is better than having nobody to talk to, even though I can only talk on the phone now because of Covid-19 restrictions and I cannot get regular appointments.

But where the hell is God when you need Him? Nowhere. The only help I have ever gotten is from kind and compassionate people, some of whom are on this forum. God is nowhere to be found. Sorry, I am not buying off on that God is working through these people because the people deserve the credit, not God. Interestingly, most of these kind and compassionate people have been atheists.

Now is the time for all the believers to blame me for not having God at my side because I am “shutting God out,” as if they could ever know that is what I am doing. Besides, if God is really All-Powerful and All-Loving, God could get in even if I am shutting Him out.

I rest my case.

Can I ask... I'm not debating, just challenging you a bit. If god can answers, what is the type of answer or interaction you are looking for?

It's hard to find answers if you're not clear on the criteria in which the answers may or may already have came.

 

[CG Didymus]

Just so I understand you correctly. Let's say a mass murderer truly repent and acknowledge Jesus as their savior after being caught killing, raping, torturing, let's say 15 people. In that case Jesus/God does not care about, what they have done to these victims, and therefore they won't go to hell?

Let's take it a bit further and look at it from the perspective of the victims. Say one of them were of another faith than Christian or an atheist at the time of murder, or let's make it fair, say they had the exact same view as the murderer before they accepted Jesus as their savior.
So now that person gets killed and doesn't have time to repent or accept Jesus as their savior, so logically they will go to hell following what you have written right?

Do you think that justice is being served in that setup? Or should we out of the blue, to avoid this injustice, add that God will save the victims as well?

Now if we add that exception to the rule, then clearly a person doesn't need to repent or acknowledge Jesus as their savior in order to not go to hell, which make your idea invalid, wouldn't you agree with that?

And if God/Jesus doesn't save the mass murderer, then clearly repenting and accepting Jesus as savior is false as well, right?

So how do you make this work?

I think Christianity and maybe some other religions put the victim's family in the tougher position. They, to get "saved", have to forgive the murderer. So the victims accept Jesus and forgive the murderer. The murderer repents and tries to live a righteous life, but what if the victim never accepted Jesus? Everybody goes to heaven accept the victim?

Another thing that I think is important here is there might be some kind of placebo effect. Most all religions have ways to get a person saved or enlightened or somehow right with God. If a person believes what that religion is saying... they feel it. But is it real, or all in their heads? Like with Christians they can feel and say how much they love Jesus and believe he loves them back and has saved them and forgiven them, but... Jesus isn't his real name. They might pray to him and believe he is physically alive, but if the Baha'is are right, he's dead. Some Christians want people to believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and tell them that they will speak in tongues. And they do. They tell them that they are healed and miraculously their backache is gone. Since some of these preachers have been shown to be phonies, then how real was the tongues and healings?

Even with Baha'is they are expected to turn away from worldly desires and turn their face towards God. They expect God to test them. So anything bad is turned into something that will make them grow spiritually. And the more they suffer here and learn from it and grow from it, the better off they will be in the next world. Even if that is not true, the effect would be the same. The Baha'i would interpret all pain and suffering as good things and theoretically get them to turn to and trust their God even more. I know in Christianity they say that God will not give them a test that cannot bear. I'd imagine Baha'is have the same thing. But I'll bet there's a lot of people that failed most all tests. It's hard for me to imagine this God as just, kind, and loving. But Christians and Baha'is are obligated to think so. Is religion just something to get people to forget about their pain and suffering and believe that after they die things will be better, and they will be rewarded for putting up with all the bad stuff?

 

[Trailblazer]

Can I ask... I'm not debating, just challenging you a bit. If god can answers, what is the type of answer or interaction you are looking for?

I have no idea how I would get an answer but I am not looking for an interaction because I do not believe that God ever interacts with anyone except the Messengers.

It's hard to find answers if you're not clear on the criteria in which the answers may or may already have came.

I do not really have any criteria. Maybe the answers have already come and I am not recognizing them, but that does not help me of I cannot recognize them. If someone you do not know calls you on the phone and does not identify himself, how are you supposed to know who it is?

Maybe I would get some kind of sign?
I could imagine that certain things that have happened or things people have said or done were signs from God but how could I ever know?

 

[Nimos]

I think Christianity and maybe some other religions put the victim's family in the tougher position. They, to get "saved", have to forgive the murderer. So the victims accept Jesus and forgive the murderer. The murderer repents and tries to live a righteous life, but what if the victim never accepted Jesus? Everybody goes to heaven accept the victim?

Exactly, there are a lot of issues here, that doesn't really seem to work in this way of thinking.

Like with Christians they can feel and say how much they love Jesus and believe he loves them back and has saved them and forgiven them, but... Jesus isn't his real name. They might pray to him and believe he is physically alive, but if the Baha'is are right, he's dead.

That is the issue that all religious people face, what if they chose the wrong one? Same goes with atheists, except that I would say that atheists are somewhat better off, because the evidence we are presented with are not exactly crystal clear Obviously that is just my opinion.

They tell them that they are healed and miraculously their backache is gone. Since some of these preachers have been shown to be phonies, then how real was the tongues and healings?

That is the reason why most atheists are atheists, I think. Because of the lack of demonstrations of all these claims, they always turn out to be based on faith, and for most atheists this is just not enough, obviously some might become theists just as some religious people will become atheists.

Atheists are not against God as if he is not allowed to exist, simply that the evidence doesn't seem to point in that direction. I think it is much more likely that you will find that atheists in general are against religions and their teachings.

Which in my opinion should not be confused with that automatically meaning that we are then against the idea of a God existing.

Even with Baha'is they are expected to turn away from worldly desires and turn their face towards God. They expect God to test them. So anything bad is turned into something that will make them grow spiritually. And the more they suffer here and learn from it and grow from it, the better off they will be in the next world. Even if that is not true, the effect would be the same. The Baha'i would interpret all pain and suffering as good things and theoretically get them to turn to and trust their God even more.

If they truly believe that, I would say that it seems awfully strange, if they then at the same time believe that God is also good. That doesn't really seem to work well together.

I know in Christianity they say that God will not give them a test that cannot bear.

Well that is not much better to be honest, just seem to be formulated differently. But it is nonsense from start to end.

Is religion just something to get people to forget about their pain and suffering and believe that after they die things will be better, and they will be rewarded for putting up with all the bad stuff?

People want explanations and answers to things. Very few people seem to be able to accept an answer like "I don't know". But in my opinion, that it is probably the best answer to most questions.
But if a person claims to have the authority or insight of knowing God, like a priest or anyone preaching religious text as if they are true, then people expect them to be able give answers. If you constantly asked them questions about God etc. And they always replied "I have no clue" people wouldn't care to ask them anything. But the truth is, that such answer is probably the most honest one that they can give. And to me, that is why religions are successful, people want answers, someone simply answering "I don't know" is not as good as someone giving a long explanation of how you as an individual are special and have meaning etc. And then it doesn't matter if it doesn't make completely sense, you can fill in the gaps as you go along, add or remove a bit here and there until it sort of makes sense.

 

[blü 2]

Sure, God may have used some form of evolution in lower forms of live, but Not where Human life is concerned.
God made (fashioned) Adam from the created dust of the ground - Genesis 2:7

Genesis may say that indeed ─ but then, Genesis says the the sky (firmament) is solid and separates the waters above and below the flat earth, which is immovably fixed at the center of creation, and that flowering plants existed before the sun did, and that birds existed before land animals did, and so on.

More on what the bible says about cosmology in its own words here.

Or as Ira Gershwin put it, the things that you're li'ble to read in the bible, it ain't necessarily so.

 

[Trailblazer]

The truth is I don't know, my assumption is that it is not the case. And even if it were the case, I have no way of knowing what it might be like, as I have no reliable informations from anywhere of how it might be.

Obviously I don't buy the religious explanations and it would be a very long explanation of why they don't make sense, so to keep it very short. I will just say that I don't believe that they are true

There is no religious explanation of the afterlife so I am as much in the dark as you are, except that I know there is an afterlife..

“As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346

And since I don't do that, I have no reason to fear that im going to anything that reminds of hell or heaven. So I have no reason to believe or assume that a potential afterlife is bad or even better than what is now. And since there is no way for me to even speculate on what it could be, if there were one, I don't really see any reason to why I should fear it.

I do not think you should fear it either because I do not believe that atheists will be excluded from God's mercy. Where you end up will depend upon your deeds and morals, so I am sure you will be fine

"This cycle is the cycle of favor and not of justice. Therefore, those whose deeds are clean and pure, even though they are not believers, will not be deprived of the divine mercy; but perfection is in faith and deeds. Undoubtedly, a person, who is not a believer, but whose deeds and morals are good, is far better than one who claims his belief in words but, who, in actions, is a follower of satan. The Blessed Beauty says, 'My humiliation is not in my imprisonment, which, by my life, is an exaltation to me; nay rather, it is in the deeds of my friends, who attribute themselves to us and commit that which causes my heart and pen to weep!'"

(Attributed to 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Star of the West, vol. 9, issue 3, p. 29)

But I can understand certain religious people, that have been taught that they are going to be judged by God and if they weren't good enough they will be punished or they might not be part of all the nice things that they are promised. But to me this whole setup, as I believed I have tried to explain to you before, is simply that it is to easy to spot, that it is invented by humans as a way of controlling other people.

If it is about being good enough I do not see why atheists would have a problem unless they were not good, but from what I have seen of atheists they are good people, so.......

But I am sure there are bad atheists just as there are bad believers.

I know that you like free will etc. But if God really wanted people to have free will, the promise or concept of something like heaven and hell would not exist!! It is contradictory to the idea of free will. Anything that promise, either good or bad things in an afterlife, whatever they might be, is a scam in my eyes in regards to free will.

I have no idea why you think that. .Why couldn't free will coexist with the promise of something like heaven and hell? Why would it be a scam? Is it because you do not think people are really FREE to choose?

You sound like your turning towards JWs?

Do you mean because I was talking about a New World Order? But the Baha'i New World Order is very different from the JW New World Order because Baha'is believe that humans are going to build it brick by brick whereas JWs believe that God is going to magically call it into existence, and humans won't have to do anything but rise from their graves and live in this New World that God will create, instantly. It is magical thinking.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

God will assist but it is humans who will roll out the New World Order..

So if you can't tell the difference between God not doing anything and him not existing, how come you reach the conclusion that it is more likely for him to exist than not? The only thing you are left with are the writing of Baha'u'llah and him as a person. Besides that you basically can't see God anywhere in the world, if I understood you correct?

You are correct, I only believe that God exists because of Baha'u'llah and all the other Messengers of God like Jesus. As Jesus said, nobody has ever seen God:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

If that is the case, I have to say that you put a lot of trust into a single person, given how many people before him have claimed to be a new Jesus, messiah, messenger or prophet of God. Which obviously must all have, either lied or been mistaken since you only accept that Baha'u'llah is the right one. Obviously you are religious, so almost all those that believe in whatever they believe in, does that. But to me, that is one of the things I don't like about religions, it makes people certain without evidence and i'm not a huge fan of that.

As I always say to atheists, the Messengers of God ARE the evidence that God exists, and of all the Messengers I believe Baha'u'llah is the best evidence because the evidence for Him being a Messenger is voluminous and much of it is verifiable. That is not true for the older Messengers such as Jesus and Moses because it was so far back in history, so the only evidence of them is the Torah and the Bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

More on what the bible says about cosmology in its own words here.

Or as Ira Gershwin put it, the things that you're li'ble to read in the bible, it ain't necessarily so.

Like if the human species is about 200,000 years old, how could Adam be the first man, since Adam dates back only about 6,000 years?

 

[Thief]

Why did God have to create humans and animals this way?

chemistry has rules

the reaction will play out
the clay will stiffen.....then break

the form you have was intended to form a unique spirit
it will do that
it can do nothing else

when your chemistry stops
your spirit will stand from the dust

God and heaven will come to see what has .....formed

good luck

 

[Trailblazer]

chemistry has rules

the reaction will play out
the clay will stiffen.....then break

the form you have was intended to form a unique spirit
it will do that
it can do nothing else

when your chemistry stops
your spirit will stand from the dust

God and heaven will come to see what has .....formed

good luck

That is all well and good, I know my spirit will cross over to another world, but it is not MY spirit I am concerned about, it is the spirit of my cats.

 

[Nimos]

I have no idea why you think that. .Why couldn't free will coexist with the promise of something like heaven and hell? Why would it be a scam? Is it because you do not think people are really FREE to choose?

In order to talk about free will in the sense that it is given to us by a God as something good. Then you can't have said God influencing your free will choices. That is what I tried to explain with the example.

Imagine im God... (My favorite role )

"Trailblazer I have given you free will as a gift... with this you can freely choose between X or Y, that is how good I am... however if you should choose X, Im going to punish you for eternity."

Talking about free will as if it is something good in a scenario like this is absurd... You are not given a fair choice that allow you to use your free will. Im giving you an ultimatum, that either you choose Y or i will make you suffer.

And it doesn't matter how severe the benefits or the punishment is, when talking about free will in this sense... Even if it was something like...
"Trailblazer I have given you free will as a gift... with this you can freely choose between X or Y, that is how good I am... however if you should choose X, then you won't get a pony."

It doesn't work in this setup with God favoring one choice over another, it ruins the idea of God giving you free will.

It is not the same as me telling you, that you are free to choose between strawberry or chocolate ice cream. There is no benefit from choosing one over the other, therefore you can choose whatever you like the most.

Do you see the difference between them? And why free will is not working in the first two examples?

As Jesus said, nobody has ever seen God

Genesis 32:30
30 - Jacob would later call that place Peniel, because "I saw God face to face, but my life was spared."

According to other parts of the bible, he should have been killed by God. But don't know, he apparently were spared, or it have another meaning, however you choose to understand it

 

[blü 2]

Like if the human species is about 200,000 years old, how could Adam be the first man, since Adam dates back only about 6,000 years?

Yup, and if only it stopped there ...

 

[Trailblazer]

Sister, I hear the agony in your heart. I don't think I can stop your hurting. But I will pray for you, and answer your question as best I can.

I appreciate your prayers and I know why people say that, they believe that God is good, but I do not know what they believe God is going to do. I do not believe God ever does anything except speak to Messengers every so often.

Plants and single celled organisms die too. Everything alive dies.

Which is more pleasurable to look at: a photograph? or a home movie? Home movies are far more interesting because they show how things happen over time, how things change around on the screen. A home movie isn't static.

So God created death because He likes to see things change, like in a movie? To hell with the people who have to be born that wish they were never born because of the family or circumstances they were born into and to hell with the people who are left behind when a loved one dies.

But I see you have other reasons so I will try to bear with you.

I"m gonna get real anthropomorphic here, but maybe God just doesn't want to be bored? If tings stayed the same, if no one ever died, Go would be looking at the same photograph of the universe for all eternity.

So we are just entertainment for God, like zoo animals that people like to watch? And the more we suffer the happier God is because that is supposed to be good for our spiritual growth.. Nice God you have there.

Here's my idea: we have death because we have birth. Life constantly ebbs and flows in a constant state of RENEWAL. Look at the universe at any two moments, and you'll never see the same thing. We get to see al those precious moments where a child is miraculously born, takes their first steps, begins to talk, starts school, has their first kiss, marries and begins their own family, and of course becomes grandparents if they are lucky.

I did not even have any children and I don't even like children. I would get nothing from seeing their first steps... Kittens are another matter, they are cuter than all get-out... I know exactly what God designed it it this way, it is in the Baha'i Writings that the primary purpose of marriage is to raise children who will be raised to love and worship God... Why does God want so many people worshiping Him anyway, sounds a little like Donald Trump.

Probably the most beautiful and wondrous things on the earth have to do with procreation. Flowers for example. What would the world be like without flowers?

In a word, the birth to death cycle is why we see those silly caterpillers become dormant pupae, out of which emerge the most beautiful butterfies.

I love flowers and nature, but their birth and death cycle does not leave people devastated and grieving. It does not have animals suffering and dying.

These things alone I think would be enough. But I'm not done yet.

The fact that our lives are finite gives greater meaning and value to the things that we do. Further, the fact that we won't always be here is what gives us the zing to do those things in the first place.

I guess I can agree with that, except that I believe that only our physical lives are finite.

How did I come to this idea? I tried to imagine a more detailed heaven, someplace I would be happy for an eternity. Each time I tried in this, I ended up with a heaven that bored me, that would eventually turn into a living hell. No challenge? No personal growth? Just... this is the picture of things for all the rest of time? Once I struggled to imagine details, I realized what a farce the live forever heaven is. I kind of started to hope that there was NOT an afterlife.

Why do you think that heaven will not have challenges and opportunities for personal growth? Are you thinking of the Christian heaven where we just float around worshiping God? Now that would be boring. Here is how the Baha'i idea of heaven differs from that:

“A friend asked: “How should one look forward to death?”

‘Abdu’l-Bahá answered: “How does one look forward to the goal of any journey? With hope and with expectation. It is even so with the end of this earthly journey. In the next world, man will find himself freed from many of the disabilities under which he now suffers. Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.”

‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96

Then the weirdest thing happened. There was a show I watched regularly for a whole bunch of seasons called The Good Place. It's about a group of four people who end up in a hell especially designed to torment them, and the comedy of it is that they think they are in heaven.

After oh so many seasons, they finally do get to go to heaven and its horrible. The people there are utterly unmotivated to do anything, because they've done it all. Sound a lot like my "boring" heavens?

But that is just a TV show, and shows like that are inspired by the Christian idea of heaven. The Baha'i belief is that there will many worlds we can travel around and to so I cannot see how we would ever be bored:

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes.You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

However, there is no way we can know about these world now, not until we die. and even then we will only know about the ones we go to.

“As to thy question concerning the worlds of God. Know thou of a truth that the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range. None can reckon or comprehend them except God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, pp. 151-152

I don't want t ive forever. Afterlife or no afterlife, I want it to have an end. Because that is, ultimately, what will give me the greatest happiness. Anything eternal, will just be hell of the worst sort. I'm lucky, LUCKY that I'm mortal, even though I too have the natural instinct to stay alive, even though I mourn the death of loved ones. Lucky.

But how do you know you would be happier if it had an end? That is like saying if you go on a vacation to a foreign country you know you will be happy when the vacation is over and you have to come back home, but what if you got there and liked it so much that you never wanted to come home? The upshot is that none of us can know what the afterlife will be like until we get there... everything is mere conjecture.

That said, I know how you feel about living forever, as the very idea is frightening to me, but I try to realize that is just how I am thinking from this earthly frame of reference and I won't necessarily think that way once i arrive in the spiritual world. Let's face it, I just don't like change, but change can be good, even in this life, much as I hate to admit it.

And by starting this thread and listening to other opinions I realized something about myself. Even if something might be better for me I resist it because I do not think I deserve to be happy. When I have lost cats i have always gotten another cat and that cat was young and healthy and I grew tom live her or him, and it was easier on me and the cat that passed to not have to be old suffer with the illness. I will probably get another cat this time too, but Persians are hard to find to adopt. the white cat in my avatar is that cat I adopted/bought last January after I lost out male cat. He was shaved by the owner, he has much more fur now. But I am still so angry at God I can barely breathe, for death and all the pain of loss.

PS. when covid came around, as an person who must take immunosuppressants to stay alive, I took its seriuosly. I have the same instinctual fear of death, plus, I have my children and grandchild to live for. But one of the first things I did was write out my will, and a second document giving ideas for what I would like at my funeral in case my kids couldn't make those decisions for themselves. And now I'm just at peace about covid. I am not reckless. But I don't worry about it. What will be will be. And I've lived a rich and full life, so there are no regrets there. I'm ready to go if that's what comes my way.

I am happy for you, but not everyone has lived a rich and full life and for those people maybe the afterlife is more welcome, especially of they have suffered a lot in this life and see no real end to the suffering.

Live every single day as if it is your last. It keeps priorities straight, so that when you really do come time to die, you have no regrets. Enjoy every moment. As Thoreau said, "suck the marrow out of life" so that when it comes time to die, you don't sadly realize that you never lived.

Physical enjoyments are okay but that is not what I live for nor do I want to. I seek to grow spiritually and improve my character and help others do the same. It might sound odd to you given what I have said about God, but I seek to serve God and not live for self..

Both Baha'u'llah and Jesus gave us marching orders and they are very similar.

40: O MY SERVANT! Free thyself from the fetters of this world, and loose thy soul from the prison of self. Seize thy chance, for it will come to thee no more. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 36

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Sorry this was so longer. It's soooo difficult trying to sum up a half of a life time thinking about a topic in a single post.

No problem, and now I am the one who will have to say I am sorry.... Sorry this is so long.

 

[Trailblazer]

In order to talk about free will in the sense that it is given to us by a God as something good. Then you can't have said God influencing your free will choices. That is what I tried to explain with the example.

Imagine im God... (My favorite role )

"Trailblazer I have given you free will as a gift... with this you can freely choose between X or Y, that is how good I am... however if you should choose X, Im going to punish you for eternity."

Talking about free will as if it is something good in a scenario like this is absurd... You are not given a fair choice that allow you to use your free will. Im giving you an ultimatum, that either you choose Y or i will make you suffer.

And it doesn't matter how severe the benefits or the punishment is, when talking about free will in this sense... Even if it was something like...
"Trailblazer I have given you free will as a gift... with this you can freely choose between X or Y, that is how good I am... however if you should choose X, then you won't get a pony."

It doesn't work in this setup with God favoring one choice over another, it ruins the idea of God giving you free will.

So In was right that it is because you do not think people are really FREE to choose so you think free will is a scam.

But people are still FREE to choose. Just because there are consequences according to the choices they make that does not mean they were not FREE to choose. This is just like everything else in the world, all actions have consequences.

The entire system is based upon rewards and punishments both in this world and in the next world.

For example, if I get another cat the reward will be to help fill the void and assuage the grief from the cat we lost, but the punishment might be one more cat to take care of and worry about, so I have to weigh my options and make the best choice possible. Everything we choose to do in life comes with a risk.

To paraphrase what I read somewhere in the Baha’i Writings, the sad fact is that most people are not going to do good deeds unless there is a reward, and they are not going to avoid doing bad deeds unless they know there will be a punishment for doing bad deeds. Baha’u’llah sums that up quite nicely:

“The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…”Gleanings, p. 219

So what is the BIG reward that we get for being good? Well, it is heaven. And the BIG punishment is hell. Not that I believe there are such places as heaven and hell, but rather these are states of the soul that go with us to the afterlife.

There are rewards and punishments in both this world and in the afterlife. We are rewarded when we do good deeds by the good character traits we acquire as a result, and we are punished when we do bad or evil deeds by the bad character traits we acquire as a result, and hopefully also by punishments doled out by the justice system.

The good or evil we did in this world carries over to the afterlife since we will be exactly what we have become by living in this world. I do not believe that God punishes us for our bad deeds or rewards us for our bad deeds, in this life or in the afterlife, but I could be wrong.

People will reap what they sow, so even if they get away with evil acts in this world and do not get punished by the justice system, they will be punished in the afterlife. How God will factor in to that punishment I do not know. Some evil people will not even realize they are evil after they die, so they will simply continue to suffer in their evil state unless someone helps them, although there is no guarantee of that.

We all have free will in this world in order to shape our destiny and prepare our souls for the afterlife, but we will not have free will in the afterlife. Where we wind up will be according to who we were in this world, what we did with our lives. That is why it is so important not to waste our lives. It is not really beliefs that are important, it is actions. The importance of beliefs is that help us to know what good actions are, according to God, who sets those standards.

It is not the same as me telling you, that you are free to choose between strawberry or chocolate ice cream. There is no benefit from choosing one over the other, therefore you can choose whatever you like the most.

Do you see the difference between them? And why free will is not working in the first two examples?

Tonight I will choose if I have either a Drumstick or a fruit bar for dessert, big deal. The difference is that the flavor of ice cream you choose is not going to have any impact upon your life, certainly not as much as if you chose to get married, go to college, or believe in God. And even now, I am choosing to stay angry at God and that is going to have an impact if I cannot stop being angry; but just as atheists cannot just choose to believe in God without evidence I cannot choose to believe God is good without evidence. This is a journey, but at least I am looking for answers and that is one reason I posted this thread.

Genesis 32:30
30 - Jacob would later call that place Peniel, because "I saw God face to face, but my life was spared."

According to other parts of the bible, he should have been killed by God. But don't know, he apparently were spared, or it have another meaning, however you choose to understand it

I never saw that verse but I think I know what it might mean because of what Baha’u’llah said would happen if God (the Eternal Essence) showed up and we saw Him face to face.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

Do you see the similarities in these verses? Our lives have been spared by God not showing up Himself but rather sending Messengers as His Representatives.

 

[Unity of Mankind]

Your view is to narrow trailblazer, he could have made them spiritual or whatever form he wanted. Life, if God exists is defined by him. So why would it have to be physical?

I agree with you that "Life, if God exists is defined by him."

As I grew up religion was only known to me at the beginning in the context of Christianity because my parents were nominally Protestant members of the Presbyterian Church. However, as I recall my initial observation in childhood of adults in general in church was that while they superficially acknowledged the efficacy of whatever the sermon was about from the Preacher after it ended they mostly talked among themselves about material things or would brag about their social status as it had to do with their accomplishments educationally or about their successful careers, especially if it translated into personal wealth.

Later, in a sociology class in college, I was required to read a book entitled "The Protestant Establishment" which was subtitled as I recall "The Caste System in America." What I gleaned or understood from this book gave me the answer why adults in my childhood appeared to have little interest in religion in so far as a deep belief or conviction than they were when contrasted with their enthrallment in their social status as exemplified by their educational accomplishments and the parading of their personal material wealth in dollars and cents. Personal wealth or success in life was viewed as a yardstick as to how close or remote you were from the grace of God.

So, according to this yardstick, which was explained in the section of the book explaining the "Protestant Work Ethic", if, for example, a farmer experienced a rich harvest that meant he was living in God's good grace but if a farmer experienced a poor harvest, or even none at all, that meant he was not living in God's good grace.

For me personally, any religion's worth must first of all be seen in its contribution to human society in general which I suppose is what civilizations are all about. As far as what Christianity became as a religion I deplored its dogmatic theologies, disunity, and apparent lack of contributing to the greater good of all peoples regardless of the existence of their various belief systems, which would include atheists by the way! In fact Christianity's failure could be seen historically in the Catholic Protestant wars and in the Christian Crusade against Islam which, by the way, could in no way be justified according to the recorded Teachings of Jesus in the New Testament of their Bible. On the other hand I later came to believe in the divine origin of Christianity as a religion through my exposure to the Baha'i Faith. My view of the later deplorable condition of Christianity was as a result of it diverging from its roots which is why Islam and the Baha'i Revelations from God was necessary among other reasons.

As a religion the Baha'i Faith represents a radical change from all previous religions for many reasons, such as its acknowledgement of the oneness of all divinely revealed religions as was revealed and exemplified at the proper time through Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. Their positive differences can be attributed to the varying circumstances of humanity and the stage of development among humans at the time of their appearance which necessitated the expounding of different principles of life and different remedies for the ills of humans as individuals and as a society. Their negative differences can be attributed to fallible human meddling of what was originally revealed and purposed to such an extent that sometimes gross distortions from their original Revelations from God occurred. In short, if there is any truth to the existence of God as evidenced through divinely revealed religions through Prophets then of necessity it could not come all at once and for one time only but only in increments, which from a Baha'i point of view, is delineated in the principle of progressive revelation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have no idea how I would get an answer but I am not looking for an interaction because I do not believe that God ever interacts with anyone except the Messengers.

How did the messengers get answers from god and are you worthy of getting the answers they have received themselves?

I do not really have any criteria. Maybe the answers have already come and I am not recognizing them, but that does not help me of I cannot recognize them. If someone you do not know calls you on the phone and does not identify himself, how are you supposed to know who it is?

Here are some answers I come across when people say their prayers were answered. Synchronicity. They have a keen way of finding connections that help them that would ideally not have happened if not, in their explanation, for god. So, if someone almost gets hit by a car, comes home and without them knowing, a loved one who hasn't talked to them in years ask them how they were doing today cause they got "this feeling", that other person interprets it from god. It's not a direct "here I am Trailer" but something (which I'm sure you already have done) you just put the pieces together and decide that's god.

I'm not quite sure how Bahai faith goes about it. Even jesus christ, I'm not sure how he can answer prayers but I understand the god part given the connection and language people use to describe their religion both in other religions on RF and talking with christians. Which I don't do as often as I used to.

Confirmed bias is another. If you have this synchronized experience and think "oh, that's weird" people go to their scripture to justify whether it's from god. So, if you had that same experience and go to bahai scripture, maybe that can help confirm it too?

I'm just throwing out ideas here. I don't think the messangers will just appear out of nowhere and tap you on the shoulder to say "I am a manifestation of god.... here's his blessing" type of thing. It's more taking your everyday experiences, confirming them in bahai scripture, and using those experiences-no matter how mundain they seem-as resources for your life.

It won't solve problems. So, if that's what you mean by that, I kinda agree-god doesn't answer. But I do think maybe you're looking past the mundane for answers that could be there just not in the "spiritual" way you're expecting them.

Maybe I would get some kind of sign?
I could imagine that certain things that have happened or things people have said or done were signs from God but how could I ever know?

Confirmed bias. Maybe trust your scripture to answer that or is there something else that scripture doesn't have that you're looking for to happen?

Also, you can imagine certain things that happen? Maybe it's trusting your own experiences (mundain or not) that it came from (bahaullah?) and not something to set aside as regular occurances.

Also, side note, sometimes during the week I'll be thinking of why people believe what they do (in this case christianity). Christians talk about needing faith. It clicked when I think they're talking about signs from god from direct experiences and they put trust that those experiences (syncronicities for example) came from god. It's their chosen go-to explanation. They become indoctrinated in these explanations and live their life by faith in all their experiences from life as a means from god.

But, anyway. If god doesn't communicate directly, do the messangers?

How do they communicate to people if they do?

 

[Nimos]

So In was right that it is because you do not think people are really FREE to choose so you think free will is a scam.

I live my life in such way as if we had free will with limitations. But whether we have true free will or not, I don't know. But we certainly have the illusion of it.

For example, if I get another cat the reward will be to help fill the void and assuage the grief from the cat we lost, but the punishment might be one more cat to take care of and worry about, so I have to weigh my options and make the best choice possible. Everything we choose to do in life comes with a risk.

But you can not compare this, to you having been given free will by God as if that is a good thing. In the example you give, you are not limited to an ultimatum in regards to the choices you have.

You have the option to not get a cat at all, you could get a dog instead, you could get two cats or even give a cat away. Whatever choice you make it will have a consequence, whether one is better than the other, you don't know at the time by which you are making your choice. But regardless of that, you have the ability to explore your options before choosing and then choose whatever you feel is best choice for you.

But that is not the case when we talk about choosing to believe in God or not. Whether you will be punished or rewarded as a result of how you live your life. If you do something that God likes you are rewarded, if you do something that God doesn't like then you won't be. Then it is no longer you using your free will to make choices that you think is best. Its you trying to figure out, what to do based on what you believe God think is good or bad. Because you might fear the consequences of doing something the he doesn't like and therefore he might punish you for it.

In your example, if you decided that the best option is to get two cats, you are not going to get punished for it. You might later figure out that maybe you made the wrong decision, because the two cats doesn't get along for whatever reason, so you decide to get rid of one, because it will make it easier for you, but also the cats will be better off, not fighting constantly and hurting each other. Which means that you have learned that in the future, that you might be more careful with getting two cats and therefore you can make better decisions.

That is not the option you are given in the setup with God, there is no second chances. You do something, you will either be punished or rewarded for it in the end. Like you saying that you are angry at God... if he doesn't like you thinking that, you will have no clue, because you get no feedback, you don't learn anything from thinking this... you will either be rewarded or punished for it when the time comes. Therefore you might be encourage to play it safe. And constantly weight you options of what you should and shouldn't do, based on what you think God likes or don't like. That ruins free will.... because you are doing things hoping to please God and not what you might think is the best.

That is why I say that this whole reward/punishment system that flourish in religions are a scam... it's a way to tell people or encourage people to do things a certain way, because if they don't... it will have consequences in the afterlife. Which is very convenient, because there is no way for you to verify this, you either buy into it and believe that you have to live up to certain standards set by these religions or you don't.

It is not to encourage free will as it is presented, as if it were a gift given to humans by God, it is a way to manipulate people using the fear of the unknown to make them align with, whatever those that have taken the authority of interpreting the scriptures and put their guesses in the head of others, as if they speak the truth.

If God wanted humans to have free will as a good thing, there would be no reward or punishment in the afterlife. If God wanted people to only do the right things, he would interfere in our lives the moment we chose a wrong decision, so we could learn from it. Free will have no meaning in a setup where you are manipulated to choose one thing over another with no way of learning from it.

The good or evil we did in this world carries over to the afterlife since we will be exactly what we have become by living in this world. I do not believe that God punishes us for our bad deeds or rewards us for our bad deeds, in this life or in the afterlife, but I could be wrong.

Yes, you could very well be wrong... but then again, you have no clue. As I said, you are being presented by an ultimatum.. you either believe it or you don't. In order to make you choose one over the other, you are presented with one option that will reward you and one that will punish you.

Yet you have no idea what good deeds might be in the eyes of God, because he never told you, you have only heard this from second hand or old scriptures. I know that you don't hold the bible in very high regards, but you can find the same in Islam, you talk ill of God and you should be punish by death. Blasphemy is being used many places in the world to punish and kill people. You might disagree with it, but those that believe they are following the word of God, obviously disagree with you... so how do you tell who is right? There is absolutely no way, because no one learns anything, because there is zero feedback from God, in regards to what is right or wrong.

Do you see the similarities in these verses?

I do, but I would not compare them as to having the same meaning, the one you talk about, seem to speak of the greatness of God, and should he shine on us with all his glory, we would be seen as nothing in comparison. It doesn't seem to suggest that we would be killed as the bible say. Personally I don't think you are better off trying to make that verse in the bible fit with that of Bahai writings. Because even the thought that God would kill humans simply by looking at him is ridiculous, and personally I think it is added to the bible, to avoid having people going around claiming to have seen God, as it could give them authority, but also it would remove the mystery regarding God and turn him more mortal than godly. Therefore adding that anyone that have ever seen him will die, makes sure that should anyone claim so, they can easily pointed out as a liar and a fraud.

 

[Nimos]

So, according to this yardstick, which was explained in the section of the book explaining the "Protestant Work Ethic", if, for example, a farmer experienced a rich harvest that meant he was living in God's good grace but if a farmer experienced a poor harvest, or even none at all, that meant he was not living in God's good grace.

This is a very old way of looking at it, almost, if not all religions uses it in one form or another. People have sacrificed each other, their kids, animals, etc. in order to please gods, because of the conviction that it was needed for a better life. Sacrificing in the bible is also a big part of it. But apparently God at some point, decided that it was not needed anymore without telling anyone (Looking at you science!!!)

For me personally, any religion's worth must first of all be seen in its contribution to human society in general which I suppose is what civilizations are all about.

That is a good way of thinking, the issue is that most religions favors some over others. Even the Bahai do this, Christians, Jews are more wrong than those that believe in Islam and obviously the Bahai are correct. Which regardless of how humanistic you believe your views are, is never going to fly. Because Christians, won't accept it, Jews won't and the muslims won't either. So it's just a matter of time before there is a conflict, because logically they can't all be right. Some people can accept it, but for others, it is not acceptable. Look at the 3 major religions:

Judaism

• There is only one God
• The Jews regard themselves as God's chosen people
• Belief in the Sabbath and the Torah, among others
• Moses is the major prophet

Christianity

• There is only one God
• Jesus Christ was the Messiah, sent to save the world as prophesied in the Old Testament
• God's character is threefold (the Trinity): Father (Creator), Son (Jesus), Holy Spirit (unseen guiding force)
• Jesus Christ died to save the world, and rose from the dead (the Resurrection)

Islam

• There is only one God: Allah
• Muhammad is the final prophet of God, and the Qur'an is God's truest revelation
• Reverence for many of the prophets of Judaism and Christianity, particularly Moses and Jesus

There is no way, these can all be true at the same time. The only solution is that people accept that other people might not believe as they do.

As a religion the Baha'i Faith represents a radical change from all previous religions for many reasons, such as its acknowledgement of the oneness of all divinely revealed religions as was revealed and exemplified at the proper time through Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism.

And it is fine and a noble idea. But it doesn't make it true. That seem to be an issue with many religious people, they love pointing out how good and how moral these things are, how they all seek to connect and save humanity. But it doesn't matter if it is not true. Because if they are wrong, then all the good we see in the world, including all the bad things are caused by humans and how we do thing. Which means we do not need different religious views to fill people's head with things that are not true. The issue is that none of these religions have ever been close to proving that they are true or the others are false, yet so many people work under the assumption that they chose the one and only correct religion. Which means from a logically point of view, by far the most people living today, live their life based on a lie.

Christianity is the biggest, so if we assume that it is the correct one:
Christians form the biggest religious group by some margin, with 2.3 billion adherents or 31.2% of the total world population of 7.3 billion.

It would mean that 68.8% of the world live on a lie.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

The fear of the unknown is BEFORE they die, not when they die. It is in thinking about what might be waiting for them on the other side. Even though I believe the next life will be far better than this life, I do not know what it will be like so that engenders some anxiety. After all, forever is a long time, so what if I do not like the accommodations or scenery or the itinerary?

Maybe the reason you do not have any such fears is because you do not believe there IS another life after this one.

I understand that analogy and I would not fear an instant death, I only fear what happens after that.

I am glad you see the HUGE difference between believers and atheists in regard to the afterlife.

That is not really any different from what I believe , since I do not believe God is going to DO anything, but rather humans will do everything that needs to be done in order to build the Kingdom of God on earth, also referred to as the New World Order.

The New World Order is evil. You should read their playbook. In like Georgia, there is a creepy AF monument that mentions trying to reduce the population to under 500 million and exercise complete control over people's lives (to govern their passions, i.e. their faith and tradition by "reason"). There's another one at a airport in Colorado that has creepy murals showing this dude with gas mask and scimitar killing a bunch of people and animals in glass cases.

What’s Up with the Creepy Apocalyptic Paintings in Denver International Airport? | OutThere Colorado

Georgia Guidestones - Wikipedia

This is the New World Order you'd actually be getting. They are dangerous idealists that think a godless world has any merit. Or... people could live their lives, work at a job, have freedom to believe as they choose, get married and have children, have a nice house, etc. This is God's World, and it has worked since humans were on this Earth.

 

[thomas t]

Many people think of biblical hell as a pain-filled place.
That is a religious-myth teaching.
Even righteous Jesus went to hell the day he died - Acts 2:27.
Jesus did Not go to flames but to sleep.
That is why Jesus teaches ' sleep ' (Not pain ) in death - John 11:11-14.
What Jesus taught is from the old Hebrew Scriptures such as Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
So, the Bible's hell is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead til Resurrection Day.
Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth in righteousness.
This is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.....

Saved can also mean that one does Not have to die if alive at the coming ' time of separation' to take place among the living at Matthew 25:31-33,37.
Those figurative humble ' sheep ' alive on Earth make up the ' great crowd ' of living people at the time of Revelation 7:14,9
This is a reason why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and undo all the damage sinners Satan and Adam brought upon us.
We are Not asking to be ' taken up ' to Jesus, nor to be ' taken away ' to Jesus, but for Jesus to come !
Come because Jesus will bring ' healing ' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
Healing to man and Earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
Even ' enemy death ' will then be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthian 15:26; Isaiah 25:8

If you, as a JW, have a problem with me using the word "hell"... let me put it differently:
Being saved means being saved from the place as described in Mt 8:12. This is how I see salvation.