Is the Christian God the same as the Jewish God?

[sun rise]

This thread reminds me of one of my favorite stories: The Blind Men and the Elephant.

So who is not blind is a valid followup question. My answer is Jesus, Moses, Muhammad, Krishna, Rama, Buddha and others.

So what did they truly teach about the nature of God? We are faced with a problem of humans modifying words, mistranslating texts and interpreting obsolete formulations. And we are faced with our human inability to intellectually understand Divinity which by definition is beyond ordinary human consciousness.

In the terms of the parable, how can we reconcile that part which we touch, say the tail, with the reality of the "elephant"? One who I believe knows, Kabir, had this answer expressed in terms of Islam's vs Hindu's views:

Does Khuda live in the mosque?
Then who who lives everywhere?
Is Ram in idols and holy ground?
Have you looked and found him there?
Hari in the East, Allah in the West -
So you like to dream.
Search in the heart, in the heart alone:
There live Ram and Karim.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

While I was raised knowing that the spread of Christianity helped popularize the notion of Monotheism, more recently I've wondered whether the Christian God is the same as the Jewish God. Setting aside the question of whether or not the Christian deity has a triune nature or if Jesus is god - if we only look at "God the Father" - is he the same as the Jewish God? I personally vote no, for one main reason, better stated than I could ever by Professor Joseph Klausner in his book Historia Yisraelit (Israelite History), Vol. 3 (with my rough translation into English):

"Jesus came and changed, unknowingly, the God of absolute justice with the god of absolute grace. [One] must love the evil men and the good men, the righteous and the vile, in the same manner and quality, for "your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous." (Matt. 5:45). And so sinners and those that don't sin, evil men and good men, wicked ones and righteous ones are equal in their worth before the divinity - and where is the justice? Where is the God of judgment? And if God is merely the God of goodness and grace and love and is not the God of justice and judgment and honesty, then he is not the God of history also. Judaism, whose whole greatness and majesty is - which her God is the God of history ("I am the first and I am the last"), couldn't accept and won't accept this sort of worldview.​

The sinner, that does not repent (for if he does repent, once more he isn't a wicked one, but a completely righteous man and even more - Brachot 34b, Sanhedrin 99a), he confuses the world, he destroys the order of the moral world, and through that - also the order of the natural world. If "the earth is filled with lawlessness" - the "flood" shall come and wipe out the "entire universe" and will break the laws of earth and heaven. In the Thirteen Attributes of Mercy, there are all sorts of good and moral attributes: "mighty in compassion, merciful and gracious; slow to anger and plenteous in kindness and truth; doing kindness unto thousands; forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin" - but also "yet He does not remit all punishment". The Jew says to his God: "Our Father, our King" in the same breath: He - is not just "the Father of mercy" but also "King of judgement" - God of the society, God of the nationality, God of the history. Jesus' concept of divinity, his God of grace and unconditional love, is too exalted for the individual moral
consciousness. For the general consciousness, the social, national and universal, that which for her "the history of the world is the judgement-day of the world", this concept of divinity is destruction and ruin. Judaism, which is essentially socially-nationalistic, could not accept such a concept in any sort of fashion."
​

Klausner goes on and explains further how Jesus' concept of divinity was emphasized in his various moral teachings, but as it's long, I'll leave it at that for now.

Side reasons to doubt that the Christian God is the same as the Jewish God include discrepancies between the Torah and the NT, which ties into points made, among other times and places, yesterday on RF: how can one accept that a text was given by a supreme divine entity, yet is greatly flawed, with regards to its predecessor-text?

That's my opinion. I wanted to start this thread to hear what others have to say on the matter.

We can even ask if God within Jewish Bible the same God?
For example God gave only 7 commandments to Noah, but later God gave 10 commandments to Moses. If it was the same God, why He added 3 new commandments later? If Noah laws are for non-Jews, and Moses commandments are for the Jews, why God made a distinction between Jews and non Jews? I mean we can always ask questions....

 

[Father Heathen]

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all follow the same Abrahamic god. Similar to how Batman is Batman regardless of who is writing or illustrating the character. Different depictions, separate canons, but still the same character.

 

[Kenny]

No, it is what Christians say (implicitly or explicitly) when they present their understanding/theological approach to Jewish ideas.

There is a difference between saying "your text is wrong" (which is effectively what Islam says when it claims that Jews changed the Jewish texts -- Tahrif) and "you don't understand your text" which is what Christians say.

That is true and as a Christian and I certainly don't say that.

 

[Kenny]

Zoroastrians and Muslims have many many different "names" of God. It's our way of trying to understand what cannot be understood with the intellect.

That is quite true... I was just saying that as a Christian, I believe in the same names.

 

[Kenny]

Why, the Abrahamic one does?

IMV, Genesis 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

Gen 22: 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Well...we were talking about the Garden sin, weren't we?

I'm sorry. You are right.

As i think about it, I think it is more of a "yes and no" answer favoring a "no"

Were there consequences? Yes. But I noticed that YHWY didn't curse Adam but rather just the ground. Then He established the grace of not letting Adam eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life lest Adam abide in a separation state forever and . So I don't see it so much as a punishment but more of a protection.

 

[rosends]

That is true and as a Christian and I certainly don't say that.

Do you believe that Jesus is prefigured in the Jewish texts or that there are messianic prophecies in the Jewish texts that Jesus fulfilled?

 

[exchemist]

If there is a claim in Islam that Isaac wasn't offered but Ishmael was, then the claim is that the God character performed an action IN AN EARLER TEXT that the other culture says wasn't performed. This means that the two are talking about 2 different actors (ignoring claims that either text is not authoritative, as each is for its culture).

Oh is that all? I thought maybe you were saying the way God acts more generally is fundamentally different in the two cases.

By the way, I've looked this up and it seems the Koran itself does NOT claim Ishmael was the son Abraham offered in sacrifice, though it is apparently true a lot of Muslim tradition has subsequently suggested this (Al Tabari disagrees).

 

[Kenny]

Do you believe that Jesus is prefigured in the Jewish texts or that there are messianic prophecies in the Jewish texts that Jesus fulfilled?

I believe what the Jewish writers, such as Peter, John and the Pharisee (Saul/Paul) et al as they interpreted their scriptures... so "yes".

 

[Harel13]

I believe there is only one God.

The other option was never suggested in my OP. I'll refer you to this post for a different explanation:

I don't think we disagree on that. I wasn't suggesting that there actually two different deities; rather that it seems that there are two different concepts of God. So the question would be, in other words, are the two different concepts - and thereby, our views of God - the same or not? If not - as I hold - then the ramification is that one group is worshiping a false image of God. It would be similar to me calling God Zeus - that's not one of His names; is a false attribution, therefore.

 

[Harel13]

I believe I am not familiar with any statements in the Qu'ran that say something didn't happen as the OT said it did. Of course Hadiths might but they are bogus anyway.

Biblical and Quranic narratives - Wikipedia
@Rival @rosends too - it seems the Ishmael and Isaac switcheroo is in the Quran...

 

[Harel13]

Jesus on the other hand, might possibly be the old and wizened shapeshifter odin, who seems to be projecting qualities that seem unexpected.

Odin? That's a new one. Do you mean literally Odin or in a mythic sense?

 

[rosends]

I believe what the Jewish writers, such as Peter, John and the Pharisee (Saul/Paul) et al as they interpreted their scriptures... so "yes".

And this would mean implicitly (at least) that any Jews who don't see it like that don't understand their own texts.

 

[rosends]

Biblical and Quranic narratives - Wikipedia
@Rival @rosends too - it seems the Ishmael and Isaac switcheroo is in the Quran...

So there do seem to be situations where the God actor in one text is inconsistent with the God actor in the other.

 

[Harel13]

If the Law were the end of the matter, then we could all hold up our hands and say that vengeance was to be the end of us all.

But that is not what he said. He wrote that Jews call God "Our Father, Our King" - both the Father of grace and the King of judgement. Two sides of the same coin. Together, it forms justice. Grace when needed, judgement when needed.

 

[Rival]

Biblical and Quranic narratives - Wikipedia
@Rival @rosends too - it seems the Ishmael and Isaac switcheroo is in the Quran...

It says this...(various translations),

[102] And when (his son) was old enough to walk with him, (Abraham) said: O my dear son, I have seen in a dream that I must sacrifice thee. So look, what thinkest thou? He said: O my father! Do that which thou art commanded. Allah willing, thou shalt find me of the steadfast.

[102] Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"

[102] And when he attained to working with him, he said: O my son! surely I have seen in a dream that I should sacrifice you; consider then what you see. He said: O my father! do what you are commanded; if Allah please, you will find me of the patient ones.

[With more verses]
"And he said after his rescue from the fire, "Verily! I am going to my Lord. He will guide me! My Lord! Grant me (offspring) from the righteous.' So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy. And when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him, he said, 'O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offer you in sacrifice to Allah), so look what do you think?' His son said, 'O my father! Do that which you are commanded insha'Allah (if Allah wills), you shall find me of the patient.'

I don't see him named here.

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

Biblical and Quranic narratives - Wikipedia
@Rival @rosends too - it seems the Ishmael and Isaac switcheroo is in the Quran...

If I'm not mistaken Ishmael's name isn't mentioned in the part about the sacrifice. The order of the verses may make it seem that way. But it is known that the Quran isn't ordered chronologically.

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

It says this...(various translations)

[102] And when (his son) was old enough to walk with him, (Abraham) said: O my dear son, I have seen in a dream that I must sacrifice thee. So look, what thinkest thou? He said: O my father! Do that which thou art commanded. Allah willing, thou shalt find me of the steadfast.

[102] Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"

102] And when he attained to working with him, he said: O my son! surely I have seen in a dream that I should sacrifice you; consider then what you see. He said: O my father! do what you are commanded; if Allah please, you will find me of the patient ones.

[With more verses]
"And he said after his rescue from the fire, "Verily! I am going to my Lord. He will guide me! My Lord! Grant me (offspring) from the righteous.' So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy. And when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him, he said, 'O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offer you in sacrifice to Allah), so look what do you think?' His son said, 'O my father! Do that which you are commanded insha'Allah (if Allah wills), you shall find me of the patient.'

I don't see him named here.

Ah you were just ahead of me!

 

[Harel13]

We can even ask if God within Jewish Bible the same God?
For example God gave only 7 commandments to Noah, but later God gave 10 commandments to Moses. If it was the same God, why He added 3 new commandments later? If Noah laws are for non-Jews, and Moses commandments are for the Jews, why God made a distinction between Jews and non Jews? I mean we can always ask questions....

'Course. We could always do all of that. Just not in this specific thread...

 

[Harel13]

If I'm not mistaken Ishmael's name isn't mentioned in the part about the sacrifice. The order of the verses may make it seem that way. But it is known that the Quran isn't ordered chronologically.

I don't see him named here.

Guess the Wiki entry needs to be changed...

Okay, but what about other differences I've heard of? For example:

The Temple in Jerusalem was built around 40 years after Abraham and Ishmael made the Qabah.

Mary, mother of Jesus and Miriam sister of Moses are one and the same.

Are those also Hadiths?