Islamaphobia - Years later, I accept its a real/true phenomena and an industry

[QuestioningMind]

Are you trying to back away from what you said in post #44? If so, that's quite disingenuous

I'm happy to sort this out with you and look at your specific claims and mine. But if you're going to be disingenuous, then I'll move on.

I agree that a phobia is an irrational fear, but I disagree that a person with a phobia recognizes that the fear is irrational. A person with a fear of spiders thinks that they have very good reason to fear spiders. So the fact that someone thinks they have a legitimate reason to fear anyone who follows Islam doesn't mean that they aren't suffering from a phobia.

This is what I wrote, and no I'm not backing away from any of it. I was talking about phobias and whether or not people who have phobias consider their fears to be irrational. Care to show me in the above quote how I conflated Islam with Muslims?

I'm happy to discuss it with you, but only if you have the reading comprehension to actually understand what I wrote.

 

[icehorse]

No, you didn't. You are just playing a guessing game that I simply find tired, annoying, and, frankly, immature.

Feel free to return to our discussion at any time when you feel you are able to address my argument.

In post #47 you asked:

So you never actually talked to any real Muslims on how they view their religion or its sacred text, you assumed authoritarive knowledge on the subject based on stuff you read on the Internet. Am I correct?

In post #49 I answered:

incorrect, care to take another wild guess?

What part of "incorrect" seems unresponsive to you? You made a guess, and asked if your guess was correct. I answered that your guess was incorrect. Right?

 

[icehorse]

The spiritual people back then was more morally good, to use your own words. I don't give a hoot about the non spiritual people back then. By the way it is nothing I can do about what happens 2000 years ago, I live now.

Is it your opinion that 2000 years ago spiritual people didn't have slaves? If so, then perhaps you're talking about a particular group of people?

 

[icehorse]

I agree that a phobia is an irrational fear, but I disagree that a person with a phobia recognizes that the fear is irrational. A person with a fear of spiders thinks that they have very good reason to fear spiders. So the fact that someone thinks they have a legitimate reason to fear anyone who follows Islam doesn't mean that they aren't suffering from a phobia.

This is what I wrote, and no I'm not backing away from any of it. I was talking about phobias and whether or not people who have phobias consider their fears to be irrational. Care to show me in the above quote how I conflated Islam with Muslims?

I'm happy to discuss it with you, but only if you have the reading comprehension to actually understand what I wrote.

Islam is a set of ideas, correct. Muslims are people who believe in Islam, correct?

I think that many of the ideas in Islam are bad. But I do not fear Muslims.

So when you said this:

So the fact that someone thinks they have a legitimate reason to fear anyone who follows Islam doesn't mean that they aren't suffering from a phobia.

You were mixing ideas with people. That's what I meant when I said "conflating".

 

[Tambourine]

In post #47 you asked:

In post #49 I answered:

What part of "incorrect" seems unresponsive to you? You made a guess, and asked if your guess was correct. I answered that your guess was incorrect. Right?

I was referring to my questions in post #42, which you still haven't addressed.

 

[icehorse]

I was referring to my questions in post #42, which you still haven't addressed. Who have you spoken to?

I addressed your questions in my post #45.

In your post #42, you seem to be questioning the most basic tenets of Islam. I believe that what I've said about Islam is common knowledge for anyone who has done even the slightest bit of study of Islam. So I'll ask you again to tell me if you think there are any aspects of Islam that we can agree are common knowledge? For example, can we agree that the "five pillars" are accepted by virtually all Muslims?

 

[sun rise]

It is not just Muslims, Christians (and Jews too). They did or do to each other what the other did and does to them. But Hinduism has always suffered because of both.

And during partition, Hindus and Muslims slaughtered each other with great zeal. Hate and bigotry are not limited.

 

[firedragon]

This was your claim ^^

I do not believe I'm "picking a particular Muslim". I believe that virtually ALL Muslims claim that the Quran is the perfect, timeless word of God. Do you disagree?

Thats not relevant mate.

 

[Tambourine]

I addressed your questions in my post #45.

In your post #42, you seem to be questioning the most basic tenets of Islam. I believe that what I've said about Islam is common knowledge for anyone who has done even the slightest bit of study of Islam. So I'll ask you again to tell me if you think there are any aspects of Islam that we can agree are common knowledge? For example, can we agree that the "five pillars" are accepted by virtually all Muslims?

Here is my post in the original:

Who has told you "that the Quran is the perfect, timeless word of god"? Were they a scholar of the Quran, a Muslim clerical leader, a random guy you know?

Or are you talking in generalizations and abstractions, and never actually talked to real factually existing Muslims about this?

You have answered none of my questions. You could try to answer them, or you could play games with me, at which point I will stop engaging with you on this subject. Your choice.

 

[sun rise]

I agree with the OP's contention that some people use bigotry (my preferred word), to make money and gain power.

But the primitive tribal roots of my way is good, your way is bad and I'm going to conquer and slay you is the fertile field in which the merchants of hate and fear prosper.

 

[firedragon]

Not at all the point I'm making. Muslims tell us that they believe that the Quran is the perfect, timeless word of god. I accept that they believe that. Full stop.

My point is that if they believe that, they must also admit that the messages in the Quran are often violent and cruel. If the Quran is perfect as they claim, then ALL of it is perfect, not just a few friendly passages. Anyone who claims that the book is perfect must take the good with the bad.

You have not read the Quran. Lists on the internet is not reading the book.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Is it your opinion that 2000 years ago spiritual people didn't have slaves? If so, then perhaps you're talking about a particular group of people?

I can not say what they had or did not have, I was not there. But in my understanding of true spiritual masters, no they did not have slaves, probably many disciples but no slaves.

 

[sun rise]

missing the point mate.

And, all I'm doing is taking Muslims at their word, and taking THEIR claims to their logical conclusions. I think I'm treating Muslims with more respect than you are

You're taking your interpretation of the Quran as the only possible interpretation.

 

[sun rise]

You have not read the Quran. Lists on the internet is not reading the book.

And reading one translation is not sufficient. There are parts that are translated very differently even to the verb tense.

Besides that, only Quranists rely solely on the Quran. Most Muslims hold the Hadith as expanding on and clarifying the Quran although there are differences in assumptions of authenticity of various ones.

 

[sun rise]

Who has told you "that the Quran is the perfect, timeless word of god"? Were they a scholar of the Quran, a Muslim clerical leader, a random guy you know?

Or are you talking in generalizations and abstractions, and never actually talked to real factually existing Muslims about this?

There are Christians who take the Bible as inerrant so I take both groups as birds of a feather psychologically.

 

[icehorse]

You have not read the Quran. Lists on the internet is not reading the book.

I have indeed read the Quran, have you?

I could easily infer from your post that you are accusing me of lying. If that's the case, then I'm done wasting my time with you. So tell me, do you think that I'm lying when I tell you that I've read the Quran? I will admit that I didn't read it in the original Arabic, I read a translation. In fact, I have three different translations. I did not read all three completely. I read one completely and then I did some spot checking with the other two to make sure that I had a good translation. During my spot checking process, it seemed like all three translation were very consistent with each other. Any questions?

 

[icehorse]

I can not say what they had or did not have, I was not there. But in my understanding of true spiritual masters, no they did not have slaves, probably many disciples but no slaves.

I would say that we have true spiritual masters today as well. So are you in fact comparing the spiritual masters from 2000 years ago to the spiritual masters of today?

 

[sun rise]

Is it your opinion that 2000 years ago spiritual people didn't have slaves? If so, then perhaps you're talking about a particular group of people?

He wrote "more morally good," not perfect. More morally good can and to me did mean treating one's slaves better than others did. It did not mean living up to our understanding today about perfect morality.

 

[Tambourine]

There are Christians who take the Bible as inerrant so I take both groups as birds of a feather psychologically.

"There are Christians who do X" tells me very little without any further context.

There are Christians who physically act out the crucifixion of Jesus Christ come Easter season, but just from that information alone, you wouldn't know whether they represent a significant number or even a majority of their religion, let alone an authoritative source on Christian theology and religious practice across all communities and cultures.

In addition, "Christians who take the Bible as inerrant" can mean people who literally take everything in there word for word and use it as guideline for their daily lives (by, say, physically attacking everyone who wears cotton-polyester shirts) or it can mean people who cherry pick their prefered meaning according to their prejudices, and leave the most obviously unworkable passages alone, or it can simply mean people who trust in their church leader's interpretation of the Bible. Without additional context, there wouldn't even be a way for me to tell which of these people you are talking about.

 

[icehorse]

You're taking your interpretation of the Quran as the only possible interpretation.

Not at all. How on earth did you come to that conclusion? I have mentioned the five pillars several times in this thread. My arguments are NOT based solely on my interpretation of the Quran.

So I will ask you the same question: In your opinion, are there any basic ideas in Islam that you would agree are shared by most Muslims? If so, can you name them? I'm not trying to play "gotcha", I'm trying to establish a baseline set of ideas from which we can work.