The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

[YoursTrue]

What would convince me would be research and biblical evidence. I'm looking for historical articles and scriptural proof. Ironically, I found proof for the Trinity when reading the Trinity book from the Jehovah's witnesses. When they quote from sources to prove their argument, they only quote the parts to support their theology. If you look up the full quote it supports the Trinity.

Here's an example,

They quote,

• "Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: "To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it."-Origin and Evolution of Religion." (ti p.6)

The actual quote,

• "The beginning of the doctrine of the Trinity appears already in John (c.100 AD.") To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; at any rate they say nothing about it."

What do you think about this? You say nothing ?

The beginning of the doctrine was in John? Where? The "Athanasius doctrine" is not in scripture anywhere. Sorry. He admitted that not even JESUS knew the doctrine. What? Jesus didn't know the doctrine?? And neither, according to that professor, did Paul. And I suppose none of the apostles knew or taught the trinity doctrine. You are convincing me the doctrine is a perversion of Jesus' own teachings.

 

[YoursTrue]

Cognitive dissonance​

Cognitive dissonance is good to keep in mind when learning new things that may conflict with current beliefs.

• "In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance occurs when a person holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values; or participates in an action that goes against one of these three, and experiences psychological stress because of that. According to this theory, when two actions or ideas are not psychologically consistent with each other, people do all in their power to change them until they become consistent.[1] The discomfort is triggered by the person's belief clashing with new information perceived, wherein they try to find a way to resolve the contradiction to reduce their discomfort.[1][2]"

So why is it you are not convinced that God is a trinity? Or maybe you are...

 

[YoursTrue]

You haven't answered my question.

To answer your question, I haven't got to the Holy Spirit. I've been busy looking at JW articles.

The Bible itself tells me that God is not three persons, each and all God co-equals without beginning. You sày you haven't made up your mind about the holy spirit. So what do you believe about the other two? I know there are not three persons, each and all three God co-equal to the others without beginning. I know this from a proper examination of the scriptures. I also know that Jesus did not teach a trinity of co-equal Godpersons.

 

[SLPCCC]

By saying its "Name" which means you are claiming it's one person? Singular? Is that your contention?

It's not me claiming. It's what it says. Singular suggest one person, correct?

In the names of Tom, Dick, and Harry. "Name" should be plural, correct?

 

[SLPCCC]

So either way, you are still unconvinced that God is a trinity of three persons each equal to the others, each and all three God, all three persons always existing without beginning?

Why are you stuck on this? Are you trying so hard to make me make a decision? Why don't you look at the WTS flaws? Cognitive dissonance?

 

[SLPCCC]

So either way, you are still unconvinced that God is a trinity of three persons each equal to the others, each and all three God, all three persons always existing without beginning?

Can't you see?

• The beginning of the doctrine of the Trinity appears already in John (c.100 AD.") To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; at any rate they say nothing about it."

The point is that the Trinity Book is misquoting.

The author also says,"the life, temptation, miracles, parables, and even the disciples of Jesus have been derived directly from Buddhism." The author is not reliable.

 

[SLPCCC]

So why is it you are not convinced that God is a trinity? Or maybe you are...

I'm trying. What about you? Could it be? That would explain it. Think about it and stop spending so much energy in trying to convert me.

 

[firedragon]

It's not me claiming. It's what it says. Singular suggest one person, correct?

In the names of Tom, Dick, and Harry. "Name" should be plural, correct?

Nope. You worded that sentence wrong for some reason.

Its "In the name of Tom, and of Dick, and of Harry", in which you don't need the apostrophe s to assist in the plurality. Its simple, common English. Your argument is absolutely false.

Also, if you are saying the Bible says its one person and not three, so its singular, then you are not helping Athanasius and the question of there topic at hand.

 

[SLPCCC]

Nope. You worded that sentence wrong for some reason.

Its "In the name of Tom, and of Dick, and of Harry", in which you don't need the apostrophe s to assist in the plurality. Its simple, common English. Your argument is absolutely false.

Also, if you are saying the Bible says its one person and not three, so its singular, then you are not helping Athanasius and the question of there topic at hand.

You are wrong!

 

[firedragon]

You are wrong!

Great argument. Bravo.

Cheers.

 

[SLPCCC]

Great argument. Bravo.

Cheers.

Thanks, I should get more praise around here for all the hard work I'm doing. It's not easy doing research while others trying to convert.

 

[firedragon]

Thanks, I should get more praise around here for all the hard work I'm doing. It's not easy doing research while others trying to convert.

You don't need research to pose an argument like "You are wrong". Plug and play. It works on any argument. So you deserve that "Bravo" for discovering that one cap fits all argument. Nice.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

You are wrong!

Let me ask you a question since you have done your research and your argument about the sentence in Matthew 28:19 is on research and not linguistic misunderstanding.

Can you tell me if the same wording in 1st Timothy chapter 6:1 say that God and his teachings are one person which is another binity?

Exact same wording. What you say based on your research?

 

[YoursTrue]

Can't you see?

• The beginning of the doctrine of the Trinity appears already in John (c.100 AD.") To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; at any rate they say nothing about it."

The point is that the Trinity Book is misquoting.

The author also says,"the life, temptation, miracles, parables, and even the disciples of Jesus have been derived directly from Buddhism." The author is not reliable.

Actually now that you showed it to me, no, it is not misquoting. The trinity is not supported by scriptures. Neither Jesus nor Paul taught a trinity of three equal Godpersons always existing. I am not asking you to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses or trying to convert you. Not at all.

 

[SLPCCC]

Let me ask you a question since you have done your research and your argument about the sentence in Matthew 28:19 is on research and not linguistic misunderstanding.

Can you tell me if the same wording in 1st Timothy chapter 6:1 say that God and his teachings are one person which is another binity?

Exact same wording. What you say based on your research?

I haven't finished with my research and I don't see how that scripture has anything to do with the Trinity. If you do, please explain.

• 1 Timothy 6:1 1All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered.

 

[SLPCCC]

Actually now that you showed it to me, no, it is not misquoting. The trinity is not supported by scriptures. Neither Jesus nor Paul taught a trinity of three equal Godpersons always existing. I am not asking you to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses or trying to convert you. Not at all.

This is my first time interacting with JWs. We don't have any where I live so I don't get knocks on my door. But I heard bad stories about them. Recently, I was talking to a friend who had a supervisor who was a JW and she suffered working under her. She also said that she has a co-worker who is a JW that she is afraid of. She says that every time the JW comes around she prays to God to protect her.

I see them when I travel. I tried to stop to talk to them but they don't seem friendly. Sometimes I just see them there talking among themselves. Sometimes I feel sorry for them. At times they look tired like they want to leave. There was this one guy who was wearing a shirt and tie on a very hot day. It was so hot that day he looked like he was burning hot and was going to faint. I felt sorry for him. I think it was a heatwave that day. I told him to take off his tie. He just looked at me like I was crazy.

 

[SLPCCC]

The Trinity​

The Trinity does not teach that there are "three Gods in one". Trinitarians embrace the statement,

• "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." Deuteronomy 6:4

So the Trinitarians believe that there is one true God by nature, existing as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1912, Vol. 15, p 47-49 states:

• "In point of fact the doctrine of the Incarnation involves that, in regard of His Human Nature, the Son should be less than the Father."

So Jesus is less than the Father. He is second in manner of existence, in position, but not in nature. Ontologically the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same essential nature - economically they are not. To illustrate, a king holds a higher economic position than his subjects do, however, this does not make his essential worth as a human greater, so ontologically a king and his subjects are the same.

*** The following quotes are misquoted in the JW Trinity Brochure. I put them here in their full quote. Notice how they actually support the Trinity:

Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethic, James Hastings, Trinity, p.461 says,

• "At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian in the strictly ontological reference."

The Encyclopedia Americana

• • "It is held that although the doctrine is beyond the grasp of human reason, it is, like many of the formulations of physical science, not contrary to reason, and may be apprehended (though it may not be comprehended) by the human mind".

The Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent.org /cathen/ 15047a.htm 21/12/2006)

• • "The word [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom" ("Ad. Autol.", 11, 15, P. G., VI, 1078). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian."

New Catholic Encyclopedia - p.306

• • "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the OT. In many places of the OT however, expressions are used in which some of the Fathers of the Church saw references or foreshadowings of the Trinity.

 

[YoursTrue]

This is my first time interacting with JWs. We don't have any where I live so I don't get knocks on my door. But I heard bad stories about them. Recently, I was talking to a friend who had a supervisor who was a JW and she suffered working under her. She also said that she has a co-worker who is a JW that she is afraid of. She says that every time the JW comes around she prays to God to protect her.

I see them when I travel. I tried to stop to talk to them but they don't seem friendly. Sometimes I just see them there talking among themselves. Sometimes I feel sorry for them. At times they look tired like they want to leave. There was this one guy who was wearing a shirt and tie on a very hot day. It was so hot that day he looked like he was burning hot and was going to faint. I felt sorry for him. I think it was a heatwave that day. I told him to take off his tie. He just looked at me like I was crazy.

You are not having much success proving the trinity true or false. Have you yet found any religion that meets your criteria? Apparently.not. if you find one, please let me know. Thanks. Too bad there's no church you're happy with where you are. Hope you find one, the internet probably has many church services online.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Trinity​

The Trinity does not teach that there are "three Gods in one". Trinitarians embrace the statement,

• "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." Deuteronomy 6:4

So the Trinitarians believe that there is one true God by nature, existing as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1912, Vol. 15, p 47-49 states:

• "In point of fact the doctrine of the Incarnation involves that, in regard of His Human Nature, the Son should be less than the Father."

So Jesus is less than the Father. He is second in manner of existence, in position, but not in nature. Ontologically the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same essential nature - economically they are not. To illustrate, a king holds a higher economic position than his subjects do, however, this does not make his essential worth as a human greater, so ontologically a king and his subjects are the same.

Three Godpersons are one or three?

 

[YoursTrue]

The Trinity​

The Trinity does not teach that there are "three Gods in one". Trinitarians embrace the statement,

• "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." Deuteronomy 6:4

So the Trinitarians believe that there is one true God by nature, existing as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1912, Vol. 15, p 47-49 states:

• "In point of fact the doctrine of the Incarnation involves that, in regard of His Human Nature, the Son should be less than the Father."

So Jesus is less than the Father. He is second in manner of existence, in position, but not in nature. Ontologically the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same essential nature - economically they are not. To illustrate, a king holds a higher economic position than his subjects do, however, this does not make his essential worth as a human greater, so ontologically a king and his subjects are the same.

Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethic, James Hastings, Trinity, p.461 says,

• "At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian in the strictly ontological reference."

I hope you find a church you're happy with. Btw, if you agree with all the above, then you should be convinced and not cognitively dissonant that God is three persons, co-equal always existing without beginning. Jesus was perfect. He never made a mistake.