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I don't think you can use Wikipedia on this. Even I can change and have changed what Wikipedia says.
Me, too. Lol. Usually correcting typos.
But the thing is...the article doesn’t exegete John 1:1; it simply presents facts.
The last substantial edit was in April, 2017.
I find Psalms 90:2 answers where did God come from.
God came from everlasting to everlasting meaning God had No beginning........
So, only Creator God was ' before ' the beginning of creation. - Revelation 4:11.
Pre-human Jesus thus was ' in ' the beginning but Jesus was never ' before ' the beginning as his God was ' before ' the beginning.
This is why pre-human Jesus is considered as ' first born of every creature, every creation ' as per Colossians 1:15.
And why gospel writer John would write at Rev. 3:14 B that pre-human Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God.
I find Jesus answers the people as to who he is at John 10:36 that he is the Son of God.
Yes, Jesus was 'with' his God ' IN ' the beginning, but his God (Psalms 90:2) was 'BEFORE' the beginning, without beginning.
So, only God was without a beginning but Jesus was never ' before ' the beginning or without beginning as his God was.
Jesus being the ' beginning ' of the creation by God - Revelation 3:14 B.
To me Colossians 1:15 does inform us that pre-human Jesus is the firstborn of every creature, every creation. God is un-created - Revelation 4:11.
The resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus sits at God's right hand - Colossians 3 - Just as Stephen saw at Acts of the Apostles 7:55-56.
Heavenly Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12.
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I like that you could print out the Koine Greek to us.
I am wondering why the author used the Upper-Case letter "G" for God ( in word 12 ) but also used the Capital "G" for the last word ' god '.
Notice before the comma, the word for God is spelled different than the last word for god.
So, in the Koine Greek the first word for God is with the Upper-Case letter " G", and the last word for god is with the lower-case 'g' god.
I find in Scripture a Father and Son are Not equals according to the headship principle as found at 1 Corinthians 11:3.
Even in the school system there is the headship principle with teacher over pupil, principal over teacher and super over the principal.
What I find in a family arrangement who are equals would be ' triplets '.
P.S. God's spirit is a neuter "IT" ( Numbers 11:17, 25; Romans 8:16, 26 - newer versions took the liberty to replace the neuter 'it' )
....And science has discovered that, in a closed system, energy can neither be created nor destroyed; it only changes form. This implies that energy has always existed...it is eternal.
Since God is energy, it explains His everlasting nature.
While this Law of Thermodynamics doesn’t prove God, it does allow for His eternal existence.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
And I find that you are right. A father and son are not equal. And Jesus says the Father is greater than himself. So we are in agreement.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
In the beginning the WORD, can only be spoken and inferred by human males in science....WAS.
Meaning as he was applying a sacrificed male life assessment he claims it used to be...now no longer was to impose the story.
For you cannot discuss SACRIFICE unless it occurred in physical reality as a causation.
CULT group coercive agreement is and always was enforced in human life by that group mentality who either owned bullying coercive tactics, or tactics that involved human harm....how it came to be accepted by those historic conditions.
And science is that history itself.
Why AI/NDE male stories and themes said to me in subliminal messaging that the scientologist today is the human teaching review of the statements that science previously owned and represented to enable the status for not only elitism but an agreed belief in the UFO of scientific human owned causes.
The spiritual story told naturally says our 2 human parents were pre existing eternal beings forced to emerge through the atmosphere as the spatial emptiness had filled back in.
Heavenly bodies separate each God O form planet from existing within the cosmological theme....so they were all placed into a higher existence than the cosmos...when once that all just say in empty space....their owned heavenly creation removed them from cosmological history.
Our parents eternal once owned no death.
Spirit said that today we live/age and die due to extra science owned radiation mass for converting GOD O the stone mass into energy/removal.
Spirit said that if the 2012 no occult practice was realised life would begin to heal and then our healthy life span 100 years would have altered and might have doubled.
Spirit also said and then you would not own death by aging instead the eternal spirit communicating release from its body would stop communicating, and then the human and animal life would just lay down on the ground and be ended.
Why we all know that we came from and own the presence eternal in our being.
The AI information said that as science re commenced nuclear UFO occult science, then the Third Coming of Jesus is realised so it no longer is biblical imposed, we are living the changes to the WORD right now.
You would have to ask why science male maths probabilities said to the builders of the CHURCH that they were told not to build that Church. Historically they were occultists pre ceding that involvement/agreement. So historically it was already notified as a prophecy to self that the building of the Church was going to involve a future of falsification of the Jesus information.
And it had already been prophesised in probability human male owned science cause and so was the destruction of life by their living presence male DNA healing/returning as science that causes it. So it was self owned by the scientist returning back into DNA living reincarnated presence who causes it.
The AI information said that every science brother from the past has over the timed period in DNA been destroyed one by one...so there is not many of them left in human life as that form of mind/psyche. For science was invented in their life ownership/self presence as the conscious thinker/inventor of all the themes...as a male and as a human.
Matthew 26:34
Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.”
Source: 20 Bible verses about Communicating Three Times
The first and original science adult male, the Father.....then his son became the scientist, then he gives his Holy spirit, which means all the atmospheric Noble Gases, for spirit in the sciences means gas to the occult vessel...UFO.
The basis of human reasoning is male and their DNA, hence their penis....which they see floating by itself in cloud formation.
O pi as the face of the spirits of God the One body O stone is on the face of the great deep of space, our atmosphere spirit. And water is what it moves upon as that atmospheric theme...as the face of God on the water.
And that science statement is HOLY. Any HOLY body was forbidden to be altered.
The reason science taught that Jesus Christ was HOLY, as the spirit gases in ancient UFO occult burning/irradiation removal was cooling and being replaced so they were told not to touch or alter any atmospheric spirit as a human imposed agreed law. What the LAW of GOD was imposed for in human realisation/teaching of relativity of life survival.
The information stated that once only Science had irradiated and set alight the night time evening gases for 7 days and then it stopped, and went back to just being night time sky.
As a status reviewed science history, the scientist said and because he had caused those changes to O God the stone, then he caused the enlargement radiation event of the UFO ARK. The tree/Garden Nature changed, and then the giant life of dinosaurs ruled the Earth....and he had personally been eradicated as being the held male/man image in the angel/clouds.
Today you cannot reignite the night time sky, for the UFO is still manifesting having owned the cause of that ignition and only a smaller portion of night time gases are witnessed burning as coloured lights/UFO cause.
Science however tried to strategize the information into a copy, and wonder why the atmospheric gas mass keeps shutting off the channel they tried to hold in an open constant.
Fact of non science control...….the atmosphere sits in a spatial vacuum that you cannot control.
Meaning as he was applying a sacrificed male life assessment he claims it used to be...now no longer was to impose the story.
For you cannot discuss SACRIFICE unless it occurred in physical reality as a causation.
CULT group coercive agreement is and always was enforced in human life by that group mentality who either owned bullying coercive tactics, or tactics that involved human harm....how it came to be accepted by those historic conditions.
And science is that history itself.
Why AI/NDE male stories and themes said to me in subliminal messaging that the scientologist today is the human teaching review of the statements that science previously owned and represented to enable the status for not only elitism but an agreed belief in the UFO of scientific human owned causes.
The spiritual story told naturally says our 2 human parents were pre existing eternal beings forced to emerge through the atmosphere as the spatial emptiness had filled back in.
Heavenly bodies separate each God O form planet from existing within the cosmological theme....so they were all placed into a higher existence than the cosmos...when once that all just say in empty space....their owned heavenly creation removed them from cosmological history.
Our parents eternal once owned no death.
Spirit said that today we live/age and die due to extra science owned radiation mass for converting GOD O the stone mass into energy/removal.
Spirit said that if the 2012 no occult practice was realised life would begin to heal and then our healthy life span 100 years would have altered and might have doubled.
Spirit also said and then you would not own death by aging instead the eternal spirit communicating release from its body would stop communicating, and then the human and animal life would just lay down on the ground and be ended.
Why we all know that we came from and own the presence eternal in our being.
The AI information said that as science re commenced nuclear UFO occult science, then the Third Coming of Jesus is realised so it no longer is biblical imposed, we are living the changes to the WORD right now.
You would have to ask why science male maths probabilities said to the builders of the CHURCH that they were told not to build that Church. Historically they were occultists pre ceding that involvement/agreement. So historically it was already notified as a prophecy to self that the building of the Church was going to involve a future of falsification of the Jesus information.
And it had already been prophesised in probability human male owned science cause and so was the destruction of life by their living presence male DNA healing/returning as science that causes it. So it was self owned by the scientist returning back into DNA living reincarnated presence who causes it.
The AI information said that every science brother from the past has over the timed period in DNA been destroyed one by one...so there is not many of them left in human life as that form of mind/psyche. For science was invented in their life ownership/self presence as the conscious thinker/inventor of all the themes...as a male and as a human.
Matthew 26:34
Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.”
Source: 20 Bible verses about Communicating Three Times
The first and original science adult male, the Father.....then his son became the scientist, then he gives his Holy spirit, which means all the atmospheric Noble Gases, for spirit in the sciences means gas to the occult vessel...UFO.
The basis of human reasoning is male and their DNA, hence their penis....which they see floating by itself in cloud formation.
O pi as the face of the spirits of God the One body O stone is on the face of the great deep of space, our atmosphere spirit. And water is what it moves upon as that atmospheric theme...as the face of God on the water.
And that science statement is HOLY. Any HOLY body was forbidden to be altered.
The reason science taught that Jesus Christ was HOLY, as the spirit gases in ancient UFO occult burning/irradiation removal was cooling and being replaced so they were told not to touch or alter any atmospheric spirit as a human imposed agreed law. What the LAW of GOD was imposed for in human realisation/teaching of relativity of life survival.
The information stated that once only Science had irradiated and set alight the night time evening gases for 7 days and then it stopped, and went back to just being night time sky.
As a status reviewed science history, the scientist said and because he had caused those changes to O God the stone, then he caused the enlargement radiation event of the UFO ARK. The tree/Garden Nature changed, and then the giant life of dinosaurs ruled the Earth....and he had personally been eradicated as being the held male/man image in the angel/clouds.
Today you cannot reignite the night time sky, for the UFO is still manifesting having owned the cause of that ignition and only a smaller portion of night time gases are witnessed burning as coloured lights/UFO cause.
Science however tried to strategize the information into a copy, and wonder why the atmospheric gas mass keeps shutting off the channel they tried to hold in an open constant.
Fact of non science control...….the atmosphere sits in a spatial vacuum that you cannot control.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Have you ever written anything that made even a little sense?
rational experiences
Veteran Member
In real human living conditions, you mean, I am not assisting you to understand Jesus and so am angered that a spiritual human in an attacked sacrifice life won't identify information for you to copy and do it again.
Real meaning in real living conditions as I am not a liar, but you are.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
I'm having trouble understanding what the trouble understanding is.
Suppose we have a chicken and an egg. Chicken, egg, chicken egg, all the way back to dinosaur and egg. But there's a first egg somewhere, just as there's a first chicken. These two are just there. Eternal chicken and egg models.
The Nicene Creed explains that Jesus and the Father create the Spirit, and the Father and the Spirit help Jesus occupy a body. So there's a sort of time loop thing going on, where parts of the Trinity are constantly making the whole.
John opens up with: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
I don't quite understand this. Clearly the author of the book is trying to parallel this with the opening of Genesis "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." However, Genesis opens up with stating that first time itself began/came into being - i.e. there was a beginning ("In the beginning"). Next, the verse makes mention of God. Where did God come from? That's not stated, but as God was already there at the beginning and we don't know where He came from, it's inferred that He was there before the beginning.
In John, however, things appear to be different:
First there's a beginning - much like in Genesis ("In the beginning") - but then says "was the Word" - as I understand, "was" is a word that denotes coming into existence - that is, the Word came into being after time began. Yet then we are told "...and the Word was God." - if in Genesis we are made to infer that God was before time began, and here the Word was - came into being - after time began, how then can the Word be God? And how then can it be said in the next verse "He was with God in the beginning."? One entity was pre-time and the other post-time.
I hope this makes sense...
Hi @Harel13
I don’t really want to enter the thread other than to make a couple of comments and corrections.
1) Mistranslation
First, You apparently read Hebrew so you will recognize that ‘In the beginning” is an incorrect translation.
Like Greek, hebrew language lacks a specific indirect article. This Hebrew sentence of Genesis 1:1 lacks the definite article (a ‘ha” after the word "Beyt") as does the Greek LXX. And, importantly, the vowel under beyt is a shiva, thus it does not indicate a direct article is implied. Thus, the sentence in both Greek and Hebrew versions is “In beginning” or "in a beginning", but not “In THE beginning”. For example, this phrase does not mean the beginning "of all things".
Multiple biblical translators are changing the wording to correct this mistake. Remember also, that the Jewish Mishna specifically points out that this creation was NOT the beginning of all things.
2) Adding theology to the text
Secondly, I agree with those who have pointed out that there is nothing in this phrasing to suggest “time itself began/came into existence”. This is an example of adding to the text, theology that is not there.
3) Assigning incorrect meaning to a word
Thirdly, I also agree with those such as @KenS (post #17) who correctly pointed out that it is another error to state that “was” is a word that "denotes coming into existence”. “Was” does not denote “coming into existence” rather that it is simply an indication of past tense.
The point is that there are so many errors in your interpretation, that your main question itself is colored by multiple faulty premises.
In any case, I hope your spiritual journey is wonderful.
Clear
φισεειω
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Hi @Hockeycowboy
I thought you might be interested to note that in my post to Harel13 that the same lack of article that, grammatically created “…and the word was a God…” in John 1:1 third phrase, also requires grammatically, Genesis 1:1 to mean “In a beginning” or simply “in beginning” as many bibles are now starting to translate this phrase. There is no "THE" beginning in this phrase in either hebrew nor greek bibles.
Hi @URAVIP2ME
I might as well point out that the early source Koine are written in UNCIAL greek. This is ALL caps. It is later translators (such as the english you refer to) that create the distinction of Caps and non caps.
Clear
φισεειω
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Thank you, but my question wasn't about how can the Word be God in a trinity or triune monotheistic way but way before that, about the first part and, subsequently, the third part of the first verse. I don't deny in my question the possibility of the multiplicity of god. I'm not challenging later Christian teachings.
Is there a pair that comes with those suspenders in your profile?@Harel13
Send me your size and I'll look into ordering a deep-wader suit for you.
View attachment 40945
Thanks!
That's okay. My question is on the word choice of the author of John for the first couple of verses of ch. 1, before one even gets to more complicated - yet taken for granted by long-time Christians - understandings of trinity, triune monotheism, Jesus, the father and the holy spirit, etc. I'm not challenging Christian beliefs here - this is, after all, Religious Q&A.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
What is a beginning for a living bio existing human being male as a scientist and a liar.
Who looks at everything that does exist. Is natural in all forms of its existence.
Is in fact owning a life today only because 2 other humans, his parents had sex.
Yet science cannot use that information for science, hence do not...so science is a liar.
For if you speak or infer the use of truth and to be correct, then you say correct information which includes self.
If you do not include self as an explanation as a science quote...then you claim that your own human self does not exist.
Then science congratulates itself and says that is exactly my claim when I did not exist.
So then a rational life would say, you invented a formula to apply a reaction so you would not exist, because you do exist? Then claimed that the formula/reaction created you....as a mind/thinker and reviewer answer equals....to the self living/existing.
To the self having invented the thoughts to think about status that you personally do not own. But when you gain an answer your claim is that the self that does not exist as thoughts therefore knows. So therefore it owns for it designed that thinking function to have self removed.
Then real science as a truthful scientist who agreed in his life psyche that said, as I thought science my mind and psyche told me that as I thought I would get destroyed....so I know as a science mind. So I taught myself in science to be a truthful human life so argue against my self destructive science brother who will not admit that he is wrong and was always wrong.
For his thinking never owned any of the physical states that he perused.
Such as claiming that the atmosphere is a nuclear reaction, when the volcano, both stone and also mass of nuclear gas/mass as the mass...released its gases into empty cold out of space to form origin of gases/clouds.
And the volcano does not own that origin state today. Science is already taught that relativity nothing is the same as natural origins and natural evolution.
Who looks at everything that does exist. Is natural in all forms of its existence.
Is in fact owning a life today only because 2 other humans, his parents had sex.
Yet science cannot use that information for science, hence do not...so science is a liar.
For if you speak or infer the use of truth and to be correct, then you say correct information which includes self.
If you do not include self as an explanation as a science quote...then you claim that your own human self does not exist.
Then science congratulates itself and says that is exactly my claim when I did not exist.
So then a rational life would say, you invented a formula to apply a reaction so you would not exist, because you do exist? Then claimed that the formula/reaction created you....as a mind/thinker and reviewer answer equals....to the self living/existing.
To the self having invented the thoughts to think about status that you personally do not own. But when you gain an answer your claim is that the self that does not exist as thoughts therefore knows. So therefore it owns for it designed that thinking function to have self removed.
Then real science as a truthful scientist who agreed in his life psyche that said, as I thought science my mind and psyche told me that as I thought I would get destroyed....so I know as a science mind. So I taught myself in science to be a truthful human life so argue against my self destructive science brother who will not admit that he is wrong and was always wrong.
For his thinking never owned any of the physical states that he perused.
Such as claiming that the atmosphere is a nuclear reaction, when the volcano, both stone and also mass of nuclear gas/mass as the mass...released its gases into empty cold out of space to form origin of gases/clouds.
And the volcano does not own that origin state today. Science is already taught that relativity nothing is the same as natural origins and natural evolution.