Atheism vs (ignosticism, theological noncognitivism, igtheism)

[Igtheism]

9-10ths_Penguin<<If you think that "god" is defined, why would you consider yourself an igtheist?

Where did you get the idea that I thought the word "god" was meaningless? I said "God" is meaningless but "god" is meaningful. Do you REALLY not know the difference between "God" and "god"? If you think they're the same, you sure don't know much about Christians.

Do you know the difference between "Trump" and "trump"? When a bridge player plays a trump, do you think he played a sorry-*** president? lol Maybe you think the Brooklyn Bridge is a card game. lol

 

[Jim]

@Igtheism Why would it matter to anyone if what you’re saying is true? Why does it matter to you? How does it help you, and how could it possibly help anyone else, to think about it the way you do?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

9-10ths_Penguin<<If you think that "god" is defined, why would you consider yourself an igtheist?

Where did you get the idea that I thought the word "god" was meaningless?

Because an igtheist is someone who thinks that "god" is meaningless, and you call yourself an igtheist.

I said "God" is meaningless but "god" is meaningful. Do you REALLY not know the difference between "God" and "god"? If you think they're the same, you sure don't know much about Christians.

"God" with a capital "G" is a proper noun... i.e. the name for a specific god, usually used for the gods of monotheistic religions.

I'm aware that many Christians hold a double standard for their religion versus others.

 

[Curious George]

Curious George>>>Those adjectives referred to entity not to god.<<

Just like Jim and most atheists, you confuse the Christians' capitalized row of alphabet letters "God" with the meaningful word "god" (uncapitalized). As I told him, we cannot have a discussion if you confuse them. My stand is that "God" does not refer to a god.

Whoah there. You came on here implying no one can meaningfully claim that no god exists. Now if you want to state that you were not implying that is the case and you were merely saying that no one cannot say "God" does not exist because "God" is indefinable, and you are willing to agree that an indefinable term such as "God" cannot be a god, then i have no issue. I would expect that different people intend something by their use of the term, and i would not argue that there sufficient cohesion for us to assume many or most are referring to the same thing.

My suggestion to him was that if you can only write "god" for the Christian's row of letters "God", then to have a discussion we can't write either of those. I told him that perhaps we should only use "Allah" and "allah" because neither of those are meaningful.

I did assume that we were referring to the character in the Bible and the Torah and would treat a discussion about Allah, the same. Such a character exists in a story but i do not believe that character to exist.

Curious George>>>And while you are want to label "entity" as a catch all like "thing," i would point out that yes all entities are things but not all things are entities.<<<

Then why don't you name some things that aren't entities or some entities that aren't things? When you say something semantical like that, you must always give examples.

Harry potter and Alice (from Through the Looking Glass) are examples of things that are not entities.

Curious George>>>>I think you are going to have to elaborate on your exception that you seem to take with my coherent definition.<<

I'll gladly explain any terms that I use just as I explained the difference between the meaningful word "god" and meaningless row of letters "God". What else do you want to know? I'm awaiting your semantical examples of things that are not entities or entities that are not things.

So you take no exception to my definition of god which enables me to then state no gods exist?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>111"Some do. Some don’t. There might be some who believe that. I’ve seen some who don’t.<<

What?? You're claiming that you've seen Christians who say they don't believe that "God" refers to anything? That's a contradiction in terms. Nobody who says "God" is meaningless can be labeled "a Christian". You know that, right?

Jim>>i would say: Maybe sometimes people believe that “God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to something that exists.<<

Indeed, indeed, indeed. All Christians say "God refers to something that exists". All Jews say "Yahweh (or "G-d") refers to something that exists. All Muslims say "Allah refers to something that exists". All atheists say "'God' refers to something that does not exist". All agnostics say "'God' refers to something that may exist and may not exist and I don't know which". I say the don't refer to anything existent or nonexistent,


Jim>>Maybe sometimes they believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to something that does not exist.<<

Every person I have known that claims to be an atheist has said they refer to something that does not exist. Have you known any people who claim to be atheists who don't say they refer to something that does not exist? I haven't. You claim top have? OK, what did they say? Surely they didn't say "God exists", for if they said that they would be Christians or at least theists.

 

[Igtheism]

Penguin>>Because an igtheist is someone who thinks that "god" is meaningless, and you call yourself an igtheist.<<

So you can't tell the difference between "God" and "god". You know nothing at all about the Bible, right? Let me quote you Exodus 20:1-3

Exodus 20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Do you see "God" in the first line? Do you see "god" in the line just above.

Penguin>>"God" with a capital "G" is a proper noun... i.e. the name for a specific god,...<<

Are you saying you hold the belief that "God" refers to a specific god? Why do you believe that it refers to a god at all? I lack your faith that it does. Are you a Christian, Jew or Muslim?

Penguin>>...usually used for the gods of monotheistic religions.

What gods do you think you're talking about?

Penguin>>..I'm aware that many Christians hold a double standard for their religion versus others.<<

What double standard are you talking about? Do you mean that they believe all other religions are wrong but theirs? Of course they do. Who doesn't know that? That's no "double standard". I don't understand what double standard you could be talking about.

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>Why would it matter to anyone if what you’re saying is true?

That's a very good question. Because it is much, much better to PROVE that Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all meaningless than to babble the meaningless mantra of the atheist: "There is no evidence that God exists".

First of all, what I'm telling you IS true, and the truth is always superior to something false, even if it were a truth of little importance. But on the contrary, it is of GREAT IMPORTANCE. Bear with me.

It is true that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningless. I have proved it to you by showing you that you cannot even begin to come up with any meaningful definition for "God" that any Christian, Jew or Muslims would go along with. I think you now know that is false that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" refer to something nonexistent or something existent. "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" do not REFER period.

I can prove to you that "Creator of the universe" is meaningless. If you need me to prove that, I'll be glad to do it. Just ask.

Atheists hate me for reminding them of this, but atheists DO share a faith with Christians, Jews and Muslims!! Atheists share with them the faith that "God", :Yahweh", and "Allah" are meaningful terms. They are not!!

Atheism actually helps support Christianity, Judaism and Islam by sharing this basic belief with them.

When atheists try to debate Christians, it's just a battle between two people, both spouting nonsense at each other.

"God exists", "No he doesn't", "Yes he does", "No he doesn't", "You can't prove he exists", "You can't prove he doesn't". Babble, babble, babble.

That gets nowhere. To debate a theist, never say to him "There is no god named 'God'". Never say "There is no evidence for God".
.
Jim>>Why does it matter to you? How does it help you, and how could it possibly help anyone else, to think about it the way you do?<<

Simple. It PROVES BEYOND A SHADOW OF DOUBT that Christianity, Judaism and Islam are ridiculous. It PROVES that theists do not believe in any god named "God" (as they think they do -- and atheists also think they do). They don't simply because they have not defined any god named "God" to believe in.

 

[Jim]

Jim>>Why would it matter to anyone if what you’re saying is true?

That's a very good question. Because it is much, much better to PROVE that Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all meaningless ...

It might not do any good to prove it if no one else is convinced by your arguments. Has anyone ever been convinced by your arguments that what you’re saying is true?

... than to babble the meaningless mantra ... "There is no evidence that God exists".

Are you thinking that if a person wants to discredit Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, it might work better to point out that it’s meaningless to say “God exists,” rather than saying “You have no evidence”? Maybe. Maybe not. I have nothing against anyone trying that if they want to. For myself personally, I don’t say that “God exists” can’t have any meaning. I say that I personally have never seen any way for it to have any meaning, if people think that they’re using the word “God” in the way it is used in the scriptures of those religions.

Atheism actually helps support Christianity, Judaism and Islam by sharing this basic belief with them.

I wouldn’t say “atheism.” I would say: people arguing and protesting against “God” beliefs. I’m thinking that people arguing and protesting against “God” beliefs helps perpetuate people using those beliefs to excuse, camouflage and promote harmful attitudes and behavior.

When atheists try to debate Christians, it's just a battle between two people, both spouting nonsense at each other.

If you mean, when people argue and protest against some other people’s “God” beliefs, I agree. It looks to me like a kind of combat sport with words, where no one knows or cares what anyone on the opposing team is actually thinking, and no one is actually trying to prove anything to anyone on the other side. Anyone who is actually trying to change anyone’s mind about anything that really matters might be accused of violating forum rules. In fact, if your purpose here is to try to turn people away from following those religions, you might actually be violating the agreement you made, to be able to post here.

Jim>>Why does it matter to you? How does it help you, and how could it possibly help anyone else, to think about it the way you do?<<

Simple. It PROVES BEYOND A SHADOW OF DOUBT that Christianity, Judaism and Islam are ridiculous.

I don’t think that seeing “God exists,” as not having any meaning would do anything to turn most people away from following any of those religious. I’m thinking that many leaders of those religions have always been aware of that,

 

[Jim]

@Igtheism It might not be against forum rules to discuss how to turn people away from following some religions, but it might be against the rules to actually try to do that here. If you don’t see anyone doing that here, that might be one readon for it.

 

[Jim]

@Igtheism Please see this thread: Atheism is not anti-theism. Anti-theism is not atheism.

 

[Jim]

@Igtheism Here is a statement from mathematics:

lim f(x) (x→0) = ∞
where f(x) = 1/x (x >= 0)

What do you think “∞” refers to in that statement?

 

[Jim]

@Igtheism I see that you often use the word “the” in your posts. Would you agree that the word “the” does not refer to something that either exists or does not exist? Would you agree that no one has any particular object in mind, real or imaginary, that they are referring to when they say “the”?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim<<It might not do any good to prove it if no one else is convinced by your arguments.<<

How could you not be convinced? No atheist has ever shown that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words. They just assume they are meaningful. It just like what Christians, Jews and Muslims do. The only difference is what they say after making this blunder. Christians utter the meaningless sound "God exists". Atheists utter the meaningless sound "God doesn't exist".

Jim<<Has anyone ever been convinced by your arguments that what you’re saying is true?>>

Yes, everybody who has ever stayed with me long enough to think it through enough. Many walk away. But those who stay with me are always convinced. They have no choice. You can label me "arrogant", but to prove me wrong, you must come up with a meaningful definition for "God" that Christians will accept. BTW, "God is the creator of the universe" is not meaningful, because for one reason it is equivalent to "God created the universe", and "God" must be a defined noun before you can meaningfully put the verb "created" after it.

Jim<<Are you thinking that if a person wants to discredit Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, it might work better to point out that it’s meaningless to say “God exists,” rather than saying “You have no evidence”?

Yes indeed, for that is the undeniable truth. The bitter pill that the atheist must swallow is that it's not just the Christian, Jew and Muslim that is wrong. The atheist is JUST AS WRONG when he babbles his meaningless "God does not exist" as the Christian is when he babbles his "God exists". [The agnostic is also just as wrong as they are when he babbles his "I don't know whether God exists or not".]

Jim<<Maybe. Maybe not.<<

I challenge you to think hard. The question is this: "Are 'God', 'Yahweh' and 'Allah'" meaningful words of the language or not? It never occurs to atheists to ask themselves that question: Am I sure that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words? Atheists haven't done anything toward showing that they are speaking meaningfully. They just ASSUME IT! Yes, theists assume it, atheists assume it, agnostics assume it. Don't YOU assume it -- anymore.

Jim<<I have nothing against anyone trying that if they want to.<<<

But it's the only logical thing to try. Can you name something else? Atheists and agnostics just don't realize that they haven't justified their assumption that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words. It just doesn't dawn on them that they MUST do that first. They just jump to the conclusion that they are meaningful words, that a god named "God" has been defined, when it hasn't. The "God-god" problem I referred to earlier is because atheists are so convinced that "God" (capitalized) is a meaningful word that they think they are showing disrespect for something by decapitalizing it. But they're not. They're swapping a meaningful word "god" for a meaningless row of letters "God", when nothing has been spoken of to show and disrespect for.

Jim<< For myself personally, I don’t say that “God exists” can’t have any meaning.

What meaning can it have? Can you describe anything that it can mean? How about the row of alphabet letters "Bliffle"? Would you also say "For myself personally, I don't say that "Bliffle exists" can't have meaning?" I don't think you would say that, would you?

If I don't know whether a row of alphabet letters is a meaningful word or not, I just don't speak or write it. I may write it with quotation marks around it, but if I do, I use it only to speak of that particular row of letters that spell it or its pronunciation. I would never use "God" as though I believed it referred to a god. I use it only to speak of a capitalized row of three letters spoken as though it referred to a god.

What about you? Do you speak and write rows of letters when you aren't sure whether they are meaningful or not -- as though you believed they are meaningful words? I don't myself. Do you? Why would you?

Jim<<I say that I personally have never seen any way for it to have any meaning,<<

Would you say that about "Bliffle", too?

Jim<<if people think that they’re using the word “God” in the way it is used in the scriptures of those religions.<<

What way do you believe it is used in the scriptures of those religions? And why do you believe it is?

Jim<<I wouldn’t say “atheism.” I would say: people arguing and protesting against “God” beliefs.

What beliefs are you talking about when you say "God"-beliefs? What I think you are talking about is not anything to label a "God"-belief, but THE BELIEF THAT THEY HAVE A BELIEF! They don't believe in a god. They only THINK they do. But they can't possibly believe in a god because they haven't defined any god to believe in.

They trick themselves into believing that they believe the words "creator of the universe" are meaningful. But "creator of the universe" is meaningless. I can prove to you that "creator of the universe" can make no sense if "creator" is used the only way people can possibly come to learn the usage rule for the word "creator", [i.e., in terms of the already defined word "universe"].

Jim<<I’m thinking that people arguing and protesting against “God” beliefs...<<

But you aren't talking about 'a belief in a god'. You're talking about their belief that they believe in a god. There is a big difference. Think about it.

Jim<<helps perpetuate people using those beliefs to excuse, camouflage and promote harmful attitudes and behavior.<<

The thing they must realize is that they don't really believe in a god at all, but only think they do -- because they haven't defined any god to be believing in. They CAN be shown this truth if they don't walk away. Many Christians, Jews and Muslims will just walk away, but not the intelligent ones.

Jim<<If you mean, when people argue and protest against some other people’s “God” beliefs, I agree.<<

What you and atheists need to realize is that there aren't any god-beliefs anymore. Long ago there were god-beliefs. The ancient Greeks defined a god Zeus and worshiped it. Of course Zeus didn't exist just as unicorns don't exist. But "Zeus" is a meaningful word because they defined it. But nobody can believe in gods like Zeus anymore. So what do they do? They believe that they believe in a god. But they don't.

Jim<<It looks to me like a kind of combat sport with words,<<

Indeed, indeed indeed! Religion is due to language trickery -- the belief that "creator of the universe" is meaningful. It isn't because the word "creator" can only be defined and learned by human IN TERMS of the word "universe". So uttering "creator of the universe" is like uttering "shmeator of the shmuniverse". lol

Jim<<where no one knows or cares what anyone on the opposing team is actually thinking, and no one is actually trying to prove anything to anyone on the other side.<<

But this can all (and I predict will someday) come to a halt when atheists learn the truth that I am imparting to you. I may sound arrogant to you, but I know that I know of no meaningful definition for "God". I also know, and you have admitted that you know of none either.

Jim<<Anyone who is actually trying to change anyone’s mind about anything that really matters might be accused of violating forum rules.>>

Indeed I am very aware that most all forum moderators believe "God" is a defined word. Many cannot stand to be told that it isn't. So I must be careful.

Jim<<In fact, if your purpose here is to try to turn people away from following those religions, you might actually be violating the agreement you made, to be able to post here.>>

I realize that. So maybe from here on I'll just ask "What is your definition for 'God?" I won't say "There is no definition for "God".

Jim<<I don’t think that seeing “God exists,” as not having any meaning would do anything to turn most people away from following any of those religious. I’m thinking that many leaders of those religions have always been aware of that,<<

I'll try not to violate the forum rules. I may ask you for your assistance in what to do and how to word things in case the moderators on here think I'm "proselytizing".

 

[Jim]

The question is this: "Are 'God', 'Yahweh' and 'Allah'" meaningful words of the language or not? It never occurs to atheists to ask themselves that question: Am I sure that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words? Atheists haven't done anything toward showing that they are speaking meaningfully. They just ASSUME IT! Yes, theists assume it, atheists assume it, agnostics assume it. Don't YOU assume it -- anymore.

I stopped thinking that many years ago

Would you also say "For myself personally, I don't say that "Bliffle exists" can't have meaning?" I don't think you would say that, would you?

Yes, I would.

Do you speak and write rows of letters when you aren't sure whether they are meaningful or not -- as though you believed they are meaningful words?

I use the string of letters “God” often, every day, as if it referred to a person, even though I don’t think it’s possible to imagine or describe anything that it could be referring to.

I'll try not to violate the forum rules. I may ask you for your assistance in what to do and how to word things in case the moderators on here think I'm "prothesizing".

If I said “prothesizing,” I meant “proselytizing.” I don’t know what to say about wording things. The main thing might be to avoid being preachy, and don’t try to turn other people’s conversations into conversations about what you’re saying in this one. Also, it might be okay to discuss in these forums how to turn people away from some religions outside of the forums, as long as you aren’t actually trying to do it here.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Penguin>>Because an igtheist is someone who thinks that "god" is meaningless, and you call yourself an igtheist.<<

So you can't tell the difference between "God" and "god". You know nothing at all about the Bible, right?

Everyone but you has figured out how to use the quote button. Maybe rethink your assumption that you know better than everyone else.

 

[Jim]

@Igtheism Are you posting by email?

 

[Jim]

Are you thinking that if a person wants to discredit Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, it might work better to point out that it’s meaningless to say “God exists,” rather than saying “You have no evidence”? Maybe. Maybe not. I have nothing against anyone trying that if they want to.

Can you name something else?

If I wanted to try to turn people away from those religions, it would be by continually improving my own practice of what I’m practicing, telling stories about it, and learning to be a better friend to more people, which is what I want to do anyway.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Jim<<It might not do any good to prove it if no one else is convinced by your arguments.<<

How could you not be convinced? No atheist has ever shown that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words. They just assume they are meaningful. It just like what Christians, Jews and Muslims do. The only difference is what they say after making this blunder. Christians utter the meaningless sound "God exists". Atheists utter the meaningless sound "God doesn't exist".

Jim<<Has anyone ever been convinced by your arguments that what you’re saying is true?>>

Yes, everybody who has ever stayed with me long enough to think it through enough. Many walk away. But those who stay with me are always convinced. They have no choice. You can label me "arrogant", but to prove me wrong, you must come up with a meaningful definition for "God" that Christians will accept. BTW, "God is the creator of the universe" is not meaningful, because for one reason it is equivalent to "God created the universe", and "God" must be a defined noun before you can meaningfully put the verb "created" after it.

Jim<<Are you thinking that if a person wants to discredit Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, it might work better to point out that it’s meaningless to say “God exists,” rather than saying “You have no evidence”?

Yes indeed, for that is the undeniable truth. The bitter pill that the atheist must swallow is that it's not just the Christian, Jew and Muslim that is wrong. The atheist is JUST AS WRONG when he babbles his meaningless "God does not exist" as the Christian is when he babbles his "God exists". [The agnostic is also just as wrong as they are when he babbles his "I don't know whether God exists or not".]

Jim<<Maybe. Maybe not.<<

I challenge you to think hard. The question is this: "Are 'God', 'Yahweh' and 'Allah'" meaningful words of the language or not? It never occurs to atheists to ask themselves that question: Am I sure that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words? Atheists haven't done anything toward showing that they are speaking meaningfully. They just ASSUME IT! Yes, theists assume it, atheists assume it, agnostics assume it. Don't YOU assume it -- anymore.

Jim<<I have nothing against anyone trying that if they want to.<<<

But it's the only logical thing to try. Can you name something else? Atheists and agnostics just don't realize that they haven't justified their assumption that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words. It just doesn't dawn on them that they MUST do that first. They just jump to the conclusion that they are meaningful words, that a god named "God" has been defined, when it hasn't. The "God-god" problem I referred to earlier is because atheists are so convinced that "God" (capitalized) is a meaningful word that they think they are showing disrespect for something by decapitalizing it. But they're not. They're swapping a meaningful word "god" for a meaningless row of letters "God", when nothing has been spoken of to show and disrespect for.

Jim<< For myself personally, I don’t say that “God exists” can’t have any meaning.

What meaning can it have? Can you describe anything that it can mean? How about the row of alphabet letters "Bliffle"? Would you also say "For myself personally, I don't say that "Bliffle exists" can't have meaning?" I don't think you would say that, would you?

If I don't know whether a row of alphabet letters is a meaningful word or not, I just don't speak or write it. I may write it with quotation marks around it, but if I do, I use it only to speak of that particular row of letters that spell it or its pronunciation. I would never use "God" as though I believed it referred to a god. I use it only to speak of a capitalized row of three letters spoken as though it referred to a god.

What about you? Do you speak and write rows of letters when you aren't sure whether they are meaningful or not -- as though you believed they are meaningful words? I don't myself. Do you? Why would you?

Jim<<I say that I personally have never seen any way for it to have any meaning,<<

Would you say that about "Bliffle", too?

Jim<<if people think that they’re using the word “God” in the way it is used in the scriptures of those religions.<<

What way do you believe it is used in the scriptures of those religions? And why do you believe it is?

Jim<<I wouldn’t say “atheism.” I would say: people arguing and protesting against “God” beliefs.

What beliefs are you talking about when you say "God"-beliefs? What I think you are talking about is not anything to label a "God"-belief, but THE BELIEF THAT THEY HAVE A BELIEF! They don't believe in a god. They only THINK they do. But they can't possibly believe in a god because they haven't defined any god to believe in.

They trick themselves into believing that they believe the words "creator of the universe" are meaningful. But "creator of the universe" is meaningless. I can prove to you that "creator of the universe" can make no sense if "creator" is used the only way people can possibly come to learn the usage rule for the word "creator", [i.e., in terms of the already defined word "universe"].

Jim<<I’m thinking that people arguing and protesting against “God” beliefs...<<

But you aren't talking about 'a belief in a god'. You're talking about their belief that they believe in a god. There is a big difference. Think about it.

Jim<<helps perpetuate people using those beliefs to excuse, camouflage and promote harmful attitudes and behavior.<<

The thing they must realize is that they don't really believe in a god at all, but only think they do -- because they haven't defined any god to be believing in. They CAN be shown this truth if they don't walk away. Many Christians, Jews and Muslims will just walk away, but not the intelligent ones.

Jim<<If you mean, when people argue and protest against some other people’s “God” beliefs, I agree.<<

What you and atheists need to realize is that there aren't any god-beliefs anymore. Long ago there were god-beliefs. The ancient Greeks defined a god Zeus and worshiped it. Of course Zeus didn't exist just as unicorns don't exist. But "Zeus" is a meaningful word because they defined it. But nobody can believe in gods like Zeus anymore. So what do they do? They believe that they believe in a god. But they don't.

Jim<<It looks to me like a kind of combat sport with words,<<

Indeed, indeed indeed! Religion is due to language trickery -- the belief that "creator of the universe" is meaningful. It isn't because the word "creator" can only be defined and learned by human IN TERMS of the word "universe". So uttering "creator of the universe" is like uttering "shmeator of the shmuniverse". lol

Jim<<where no one knows or cares what anyone on the opposing team is actually thinking, and no one is actually trying to prove anything to anyone on the other side.<<

But this can all (and I predict will someday) come to a halt when atheists learn the truth that I am imparting to you. I may sound arrogant to you, but I know that I know of no meaningful definition for "God". I also know, and you have admitted that you know of none either.

Jim<<Anyone who is actually trying to change anyone’s mind about anything that really matters might be accused of violating forum rules.>>

Indeed I am very aware that most all forum moderators believe "God" is a defined word. Many cannot stand to be told that it isn't. So I must be careful.

Jim<<In fact, if your purpose here is to try to turn people away from following those religions, you might actually be violating the agreement you made, to be able to post here.>>

I realize that. So maybe from here on I'll just ask "What is your definition for 'God?" I won't say "There is no definition for "God".

Jim<<I don’t think that seeing “God exists,” as not having any meaning would do anything to turn most people away from following any of those religious. I’m thinking that many leaders of those religions have always been aware of that,<<

I'll try not to violate the forum rules. I may ask you for your assistance in what to do and how to word things in case the moderators on here think I'm "proselytizing".

Just because you dont believe in a God or think they can exist, or even get "offended" by someone using the word God in the "wrong" way according to your understanding, does not mean you can dictate what everyone else Should, could or have to believe or do. If you could you would have been God. And that you are not

 

[Jim]

@Igtheism I can’t see any way for “God exists” to have any meaning. That might convince a few people not to be Jews, Christians or Muslims, but I’m thinking that for most people it would not be a reason not to be a member of any of those those religions.

 

[Igtheism]

@Igtheism >>I can’t see any way for “God exists” to have any meaning.<<

Jim:<<That might convince a few people not to be Jews, Christians or Muslims, but I’m thinking that for most people it would not be a reason not to be a member of any of those religions.<<

I agree that is true for most Christians. Most won't. But it would for the educated apologist and theologian who involves themselves with deep thinking to justify Christianity.

Most atheists say "I don't believe in any gods", so I assumed that atheists must believe that Christians believe in a god. You must not be an atheist, as the dictionary defines the word "atheist", which is, and I quote from copy and paste from Merriam-Webster's online dictionary:
atheism
noun

athe·ism | \ ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm \
Definition of atheism

1. disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
1a : a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods
2 archaic : godlessness especially in conduct : ungodliness,

As I said, I know of no gods that Christians believe in. They think they believe in a god named "God", but they don't believe in any god, they just think they do, speak as though they do, and behave as though they do. Why would "atheism" be "defined" that way if atheists didn't believe that Christians believe in a god. Do you label yourself "an atheist"? Merriam-Webster's "definition" doesn't fit you. I had hoped to debate with atheists on this forum. Do you not claim to be an atheist?

I agree that I misspelled "proselytize". I started typing the word and realized that I didn't remember how to spell it. I later looked up the word, went back to this forum, clicked the edit button and corrected it, but it must not have gotten through and you only saw what I wrote before I corrected it.