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Give us your best pitch for what you believe
- Thread starter izzy88
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PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
I find it plausible there may be gods. But agnosticism is a bit stuffy and unsure in my perception. Remember, some can label themselves "Seeker" like I do now. As far as choice of religion goes, I'm not sold completely on anything in every way, I wouldn't give up my life over it at this point, but I do find Hindu stories fascinating, and there is quite a bit of content there.
In my humble opinion. Also, my philosophy is not to add too many arguments because the higher amount of assertions and detail in each assertion, the more likely it's wrong.
In my humble opinion. Also, my philosophy is not to add too many arguments because the higher amount of assertions and detail in each assertion, the more likely it's wrong.
To me, the truth "speaks hesitantly". That is, it does not typically assert itself as beyond question (although in some cases it might legitimately do so) but speaks with intellectual modesty. Hence, I only hold at most tentative beliefs about deity. I might in some cases lean to one side or the other, but I have few, very few, firm conclusions.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
“Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves, like locked rooms and like books that are now written in a very foreign tongue. Do not now seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer.” -Rainer Maria Rilke
With all of our existing worldviews, values, religions, and whatever that "doesn't apply to you" that humans tend to have or ask in one way or another, tends to gear around the same mystery (or something we do not know that sparks our curiosity) of fulfillment, legacy, vision, value, journey, pride, etc.
That's pretty much evidence everywhere you go.
I'm not sure how to support spiritual experiences that people call god or say is from god etc. Sounds like a question that will only be answered if one is open enough to tell strangers they're deepest secrets. But, until then, it's a foregone conclusion. What do they say: Look within.
Rational Agnostic
Well-Known Member
The best argument for atheism in my opinion is:
(1): Every argument I have seen for the existence of a god or goddess has been logically unsound.
(2): Even if a logically sound argument for the existence of a god/goddess could be produced, it would almost certainly be applicable to any of the many manmade gods and goddesses. So, since there is no evidence for any one of the specific gods/goddesses' existences being more probable than any of the others, a logically sound argument for a deity would at best be an argument for a more general, deistic deity rather than a deity of a specific religion.
Rational Agnostic
Well-Known Member
Interesting, but this doesn't match up with my experiences of euphoria as an undergrad majoring in pure mathematics. I would often spend hours or even days attempting to construct proofs, and when I produced a valid proof of a theorem, the truth spoke pretty loudly, or so it seemed to me.
As a Christian, going back to the beginning of human existence in the Bible and asking what God's first purpose was for humankind, is a good place to start.
He created humans with his qualities so that they could act as his representative here, as he had appointed them to be caretakers of this earth and its creatures. All creation was to be in subjection to them. (Genesis 1:28)
Then we read Isaiah 55:11...
"so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. (ESV)
What God started, he will finish. There was no natural cause of death in Eden and there was a "tree of life" there to ensure that the humans would never succumb to death.....unless they disobeyed one simple command. A rebel spirit lied to them and tempted them to disobey because he wanted to become a god to them.
"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life." (Genesis 3:22-24)
Disobedience was the only cause of death and as free willed beings that could choose to disobey and die, by being denied access to the only thing that could keep them alive.....stupidly, they fell for the devil's lies and here we are....still dying all these thousands of years later and it still feels as wrong as it ever did. We are simply not programmed for death, despite the fact that from the beginning our first parents chose to disobey, bringing death into the world for all their offspring. (Roman 5:12)
God sent his son to offer a ransom on behalf of Adam's children and to cancel his debt.
In all the years of our existence God has allowed humans to 'reap what they had sown'. They chose to know good and evil and that has blighted their lives ever since, but God will restore his original purpose with all humanity the wiser for experiencing what God tried to shield them from.
What happened in Genesis is restored in Revelation....
"2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” (ESV)
All the destructive things that humans have brought upon the planet and each other, will be rectified, with precedents set for the eternal future so that the issue of God's rightful Sovereignty over his creation can never be raised again....and humanity will not be weighed down by the tragedy of many past events. (Isaiah 65:17)
All that transpired between Genesis and Revelation was God teaching humans the value of obedience to him and trust that he knows what he is doing, and can bring about the conclusion he desires even if it means a long detour. He is not constrained by time like we are.
That is the Bible's basic message to me.
King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
I think I'll be back here again living the exact same life again as we all will be. I don't think it's gonna happen in that long of a time. I think our lifespan on earth is between 50 and 100 years if I had to guess. After that we all come back and we live our lives. The same exact ones were living now. We won't be aware that it's the same exact one because we will be starting over. To me this makes the most sense and it's the most believable thing to happen. I believe my life is profound, Is as everyone's. I can't think of anything being more profound than this. Flying around in heaven as an angel? Nah. Running out of oil in 100 years then the sun burning out in a million then nothingness? Nah.
izzy88
Active Member
That's really interesting - I actually believed the same thing for a while. When I was an atheist, I eventually came to believe that the universe is essentially an eternally-existing closed system, and so, given an eternity, this exact world we find ourselves in would inevitably come into existence again at some point, and so we would all experience it again because the energy/particles which make me "me" (because I also believed that the self/consciousness was simply an emergent property of the brain) would arrange themselves in exactly the same way as is necessary for me to experience consciousness. I was undecided about whether we could come to exist in different worlds than this current one, but I figured it was probably possible. So it was essentially a naturalistic form of reincarnation.
I've never seen anyone else say they had such a similar belief.
Yes. And then you get into grad school and learn everything that can go wrong. There is still a euphoria when you manage to prove a result, though.
Rational Agnostic
Well-Known Member
I went to grad school for stats instead. I enjoyed math but a bachelor's degree in it was more than enough for me.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
7billion+ copies of a learning device
and no one survives the last breath?
not one chance in billions?
I am willing to assume I shall continue
and again likewise for you
otherwise we are dust in a box
doomed to the confinement of eternal darkness of the grave
I did not create myself
neither did you
we are assembled.....and can be disassembled
I suspect that to stand from the body....is a matter of will
the desire to live
but as we do so.....we rise to stand before God and heaven
to make presentation of what we have become
good luck
God doeth as God Willeth.
We get to choose for God's Will to be done, or we can choose other paths. In the end we die and turn to dust. So did we leave any good will in our lives?
Regards Tony
To be honest I don’t have any convincing arguments for belief in God. I think I just believe due to genetic hardwiring, and I see that as a perfectly acceptable reason for me to believe.
Are you sure about that?
Well...I don't know if this is quite what you intended, but...
I believe we should live with the concept of personal responsibility forefront in our mind and actions.
Be you religious or not, that still appears to me to be the path that will lead to a better world.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I went to grad school for stats instead. I enjoyed math but a bachelor's degree in it was more than enough for me.
You enjoy math?! Why don't you take it for me next week for two months. That's what's holdin' me.