If this pandemic/pestilece is a sign of the end..next sign is in the heavens

[Milton Platt]

I would counter that quakes before Jesus would not be signs of His RETURN! (as for your imaginary time claims, find a science thread and try to support them. Good luck with that.

I agree...it just points out tat since quakes existed before and after....what's the difference???

 

[dad]

I agree...it just points out tat since quakes existed before and after....what's the difference???

The difference is that when we see a specific set of signs (War, followed by famines and pestilences and earthquakes, as well as a great sign in the heavens) That will tell us we entered the very last seven years of world history known as the time of tribulation or compared to a woman in labor.

 

[Milton Platt]

The difference is that when we see a specific set of signs (War, followed by famines and pestilences and earthquakes, as well as a great sign in the heavens) That will tell us we entered the very last seven years of world history known as the time of tribulation or compared to a woman in labor.

Please point a point in time in history when the following did not exist at some place on the earth........Pestilence, earthquakes, famines.

 

[dad]

Please point a point in time in history when the following did not exist at some place on the earth........Pestilence, earthquakes, famines.

Doesn't matter at all. Name me any time that a world war happened, directly followed by famines and earthquakes and great pestilences, as well as a worldwide great sign in the heavens above?

We were not told to look for the 'sign' of the times. We were told what the signs of the times would be.

 

[Milton Platt]

The difference is that when we see a specific set of signs (War, followed by famines and pestilences and earthquakes, as well as a great sign in the heavens) That will tell us we entered the very last seven years of world history known as the time of tribulation or compared to a woman in labor.

Since Christians have been pointing this out for some 2000 years, it is fairly obvious that this this is just another iteration.

 

[dad]

Since Christians have been pointing this out for some 2000 years, it is fairly obvious that this this is just another iteration.

I have actually never heart this pointed out before. Source?

 

[Milton Platt]

I have actually never heart this pointed out before. Source?

Although I am sure there are others who might agree, the opinion is my own and I am willing to own it.
There have been almost innumerable forecasts of the "end times". An easy Google.

 

[dad]

Although I am sure there are others who might agree, the opinion is my own and I am willing to own it.
There have been almost innumerable forecasts of the "end times". An easy Google.

Of course, there have been many ideas on when the end will come. This thread defines what is meant by the end as being the final seven-year period. This thread points out that there are signs before this time also, that could not tell us when it starts. This thread points out a group of signs together that seem to mark the start of that period. No one says they happened yet.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

You seem to be calling the seven-year period the tribulation, is this correct?



By verse 25 it seems that it is even after the Great Tribulation or last three and a half years starts. The event that tells us that it started is the abomination of desolation idol that is set up in the holy place. (way back in verse 15)

If we realize that it is not the sign itself (earthquake etc) that really tells us where we are, but when the sign happens it avoids confusion. There are three times that I can see where similar signs occur.

Before the seven years
Just before and at the start of the seven years
In the seven years

Some of the signs and events in the seven years are easy to identify as they are beyond compare with anything in history.




Well, in both gospels I see the key phrase that seems to denote the last seven year period. The beginning of sorrows. The word translated as sorrows is associated with a woman in travail.

So, there is a little group of signs that is said to be the beginning of sorrows. There is a group of signs before this that is before that time. There is a group of signs following this that are in that last seven year time.

You say 'in both Gospels'. Where in both Gospels?


Correct, that has always been the teaching in bible believing churches that I am aware of. We are to be ready as if it could be today, yet sort of work and plan as if it might be way in the future.
However, as I discuss the topic here I noticed that there does seem to be a little group of signs that will mark the start of the period or labor pains in the end. As mentioned in the three gospels those signs are war, (earthquakes, pestilences and famine) and great signs in the sky.

It is possible that the Rapture could be one of those great signs in the sky! Even if the world cannot see us or Him in the sky, it could impact the sky and heavens in some big ways.

So we can't really, as believers pin the time for the Rapture. Looking at how the world is changing (getting ready for digital IDs, Bio medical chips, loss of freedoms, loss of use of cash etc) it does seem that the stage is being set with the final preparations and the curtain call could come any time. Therefore if this pestilence led to a major war (the talk of holding China accountable coupled with sudden atomic underground testing in China, shifting of B 52s from Guam - as well as increased tensions with Iran etc etc etc) then that war very well could be the war mentioned in the three gospels. It would be followed by the other signs that usher in the last seven years. So if I see a world sized war, and it leads to disease and food shortages and we also see some big quakes about this time.....I will probably assume I better get ready to meet Him pretty quick.

Yes, I see the Tribulation as the 7 year period spoken of by Daniel.

For me to answer you must be clear on chapter and verse that you are addressing. Verse 25 and verse 15 of what?

I don't see the Rapture as a sign, as the signs are given to the believers. The Rapture is the removal of believers. It is not a sign, it is the real thing. The unbelieving could care less and will never acknowledge the Rapture for what it is.

Of course we cannot pin the time of the Rapture. It could occur at any time.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[QuestioningMind]

Not really. If they knew that some of the signs they looked for actually would be expected before that final seven years they could not base anything on them. There are always some who will mess things up. People in Jesus' day would have known He was coming because the year was given in Daniel. Those who did not know were lazy or deceived or deceivers.



The signs of the very end, the last days of the Tribulation period could not possibly have been fulfilled now or at any time in history. That is insanity.

The signs like earthquakes which really are before the seven years, and begin the seven years, and are also at the end of the seven years would not tell anyone in history that we were there at the end.

This is one reason I think it helps to classify the signs into before, at the start of the seven years and those in the seven years.

There are always some who will mess things up.

The signs of the very end, the last days of the Tribulation period could not possibly have been fulfilled now or at any time in history. That is insanity.

The two above quotes pretty much sum up why I think looking for 'sign's foretold thousands of years ago is so silly.

Yes, there will always be people who mess things up, we're notorious for it. That's why you can say that it's insanity that anyone would have claimed they'd seen all of the signs for the last days; yet Christians throughout history HAVE been reaching such insane conclusions for thousands of years. That's because there's something about human nature... for some reason if we're convinced that there ARE signs to find, we have this bizarre ability to convince ourselves that we HAVE found them, even if they don't even really exist.

So if Jesus did use 'signs' as a way to give people a chance to prepare for what is to come then he pretty much ensured that people in every single generation would incorrectly read the signs, because they're all so concerned about not being prepared. That's why every few years you get some new wacko that insists that they've read all the 'signs' and are confident that the end will come by a certain date. That's because when people are convinced that there ARE signs to find they will inevitably convince themselves that they've FOUND such signs. Undoubtedly it will continue to happen for thousands of years to come.

 

[dad]

Yes, I see the Tribulation as the 7 year period spoken of by Daniel.

For me to answer you must be clear on chapter and verse that you are addressing. Verse 25 and verse 15 of what?

That was in response to your quote

"This can become quite a complex discussion involving the comparison of (Matt. 24-25) with (Luke 21)."

In Matt 24:15 it already was talking about the abomination. Therefore the stuff after this seems to be after that time of the abomination of desolation.

I don't see the Rapture as a sign, as the signs are given to the believers.

There are probably billions of new believers in the last seven years. Even the unbelievers should get the message of the judgments as the idea is to get them to repent.

The Rapture is the removal of believers. It is not a sign, it is the real thing. The unbelieving could care less and will never acknowledge the Rapture for what it is.

As stated, they may not see us going up, or Jesus in the air. They might see something though, in the sky happening.

Of course we cannot pin the time of the Rapture. It could occur at any time.

I think most preachers I have heard place the timing of the Rapture to just before the judgments. Sort of like a king recalling His diplomats before a war.

That would mean that it would be near the time of the beginning of sorrows. That would also mean that the signs indicating the beginning of sorrows (I listed the five signs already from the three gospels) would also be indicating the Rapture was near.

 

[Tiberius]

Rather than gripe and whine, try to realize what thread you are posting in. Have you some Scriptural arguments on the topic? Or is this just a stalking/spam thing from another thread?

So when it comes to scriptural arguments, we must abandon logic and good arguments?

 

[Tiberius]

Far as I can tell the topic according to the OP is the signs which occur at the end of the age/ return of Christ. That’s the point I’m addressing and the verse I included is in direct reference to those who discount and deny the promise of Christ’s return and the signs He said would occur at the end of the age.

You appear to be randomly trying to bring the unrelated subject of “persecution” into the discussion.

You're the one who brought it up when you said that people doubting and mocking Christ will be one of the fulfillments of the prophecy to show we are in the end times. Post 70.

“Is the Bubble about to Burst?

Within God’s timeline we reside in the Church Age or Age of Grace, which is a period where God has endured longsuffering as He has patiently prepared His Bride, the Church. For eternal salvation He only requires of Mankind that we make a free-will decision of faith in His Son, who died for our sins and rose from death to life after three days. He wants none to perish but all to obtain salvation (2nd Peter 3:9).*

Beyond the ultimate gift of His Son, God further graced Mankind with two other mighty gifts: The Holy Spirit to dwell in us and guide us in all things, and the mind of God, His Word. We are in an age truly blessed because we need but to believe in order to become Children of God.

However, according to the scriptures, this magnificent Age of Grace shall end. That is not an IF, but a WHEN. Beyond any doubt, COVID-19 is awakening many in Mankind from their deadly spiritual slumber. This is in preparation for what shall come upon the face of the earth before He Returns in Triumph.”


COVID-19: But the Calm Before the Storm :: By Joe Southerland - Rapture Ready

Back in 1666, people thought the Bubonic plague was a sign of the end of the world as well. They were wrong then too.

 

[dad]

So when it comes to scriptural arguments, we must abandon logic and good arguments?

When it comes to absolute truths, your little wisdom is of limited import.

 

[InChrist]

You're the one who brought it up when you said that people doubting and mocking Christ will be one of the fulfillments of the prophecy to show we are in the end times. Post 70.




Back in 1666, people thought the Bubonic plague was a sign of the end of the world as well. They were wrong then too.

Yes, I brought up the subject and scriptures about people doubting the coming of Christ... even though He said it will happen. Just because it hasn’t happened yet does not negate His promise or mean it will not happen in God’s perfect time frame.

But I said nothing about “persecution”.

Many historical frightening events have caused some people to panic and think it’s the end of the world. But God has given specific indicators which had to be in place and #1 is that Israel ( the Jews) had to be back in the land of Israel, as they are at present in their own nation. This was not the case at the time of the bubonic plague or during WW1 or 2. Israel is a nation again now in fulfillment of prophecy. Technology is in place for a soon cashless economy and digital identity for everyone and the push is ever increasing for a global unity and government. We are close to the end and the biblical indicators are on place. I think this current virus pandemic is a wake up call for anyone paying attention.

 

[Tiberius]

When it comes to absolute truths, your little wisdom is of limited import.

And your non-existence evidence is of no import.

 

[Tiberius]

Yes, I brought up the subject and scriptures about people doubting the coming of Christ... even though He said it will happen. Just because it hasn’t happened yet does not negate His promise or mean it will not happen in God’s perfect time frame.

But I said nothing about “persecution”.

Many historical frightening events have caused some people to panic and think it’s the end of the world. But God has given specific indicators which had to be in place and #1 is that Israel ( the Jews) had to be back in the land of Israel, as they are at present in their own nation. This was not the case at the time of the bubonic plague or during WW1 or 2. Israel is a nation again now in fulfillment of prophecy. Technology is in place for a soon cashless economy and digital identity for everyone and the push is ever increasing for a global unity and government. We are close to the end and the biblical indicators are on place. I think this current virus pandemic is a wake up call for anyone paying attention.

So what? Do you think Christianity is the only religion that has prophesied the persecution of its followers? People of EVERY religion have been persecuted! To claim that there's a prophecy that followers of a religion will be persecuted isn't evidence of the divine, it's evidence that people saw it happen before and figured it would probably happen again.

And the fact that none of your alleged factors were in place back in 1666 certainly didn't stop people from claiming that was the end of the world. What's gonna happen next time someone predicts the end of the world? People will say, "Oh, but they said it would happen in 2020 with the Coronavirus," and other people will say, "Ah, but there were factors that were missing, that's why it never happened!"

But in any case, here's a chance to put your money where your mouth is. If you really think this is the actual end time, tell me exactly what is going to happen (that could only happen with help from God) and give a time frame for it. And then let's see if the events you predict actually happen within that time frame. If they DO happen, I'm prepared to convert to your religion.

Are you prepared to give up your religion if it DOESN'T happen?

 

[dad]

And your non-existence evidence is of no import.

The evidence is overwhelming. You cannot produce any evidence whatsoever for your same nature on earth in the past. Every post you confirm it.

Your excuses for denying history and Scriptural records of the past are exposed as nothing but a choice to do so based on nothing.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

That was in response to your quote

"This can become quite a complex discussion involving the comparison of (Matt. 24-25) with (Luke 21)."

In Matt 24:15 it already was talking about the abomination. Therefore the stuff after this seems to be after that time of the abomination of desolation.


There are probably billions of new believers in the last seven years. Even the unbelievers should get the message of the judgments as the idea is to get them to repent.



As stated, they may not see us going up, or Jesus in the air. They might see something though, in the sky happening.


I think most preachers I have heard place the timing of the Rapture to just before the judgments. Sort of like a king recalling His diplomats before a war.

That would mean that it would be near the time of the beginning of sorrows. That would also mean that the signs indicating the beginning of sorrows (I listed the five signs already from the three gospels) would also be indicating the Rapture was near.

I hold that the time of sorrows or beginning of sorrows is the Tribulation period. This time of sorrows begins in (Matt. 24:4-14). It is the first 3 and 1/2 years. (Matt. 24:15) marks the middle of the Tribulation as (Dan. 9:27) clearly states that is when the abomination of desolation is set up. And so (Matt. 24:15-28) describes the last 3 and 1/2 years of the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:29-31) speaks to the end of the Tribulation and the Second Coming of Christ as (24:29) says, "Immediately after the tribulation"

I'm sure there will be many during the Tribulation who will turn to God. The Gospel preached during that time will be the Gospel of the kingdom and not the Gospel of Grace. (Matt. 24:14). That Gospel was specifically directed toward Israel when Christ first began His public ministry. (Matt. 3:1-2) (Matt. 4:17) (Matt. 6:10) (Matt. 10:5-7) The Jew must repent of his unbelief in God, and the Gentile's faith will be seen in his belief in that Gospel and his response to the Jews who will be persecuted by the anti-Christ. (Matt 25:33-40)

I hold to the Rapture occurring at the beginning of the Tribulation. In fact, I believe it is the trigger that initiates that 7 year period. Why? Because the U.S. must be removed as the main power in the world. Power must go back to that area involving the Old Roman Empire for the end time events of the Tribulation period to occur. And I think the Rapture will affect the U.S. more than any other country in the world. And I think that would do it.

Salvation is always by faith no matter what time period we are in. I believe the signs are for the believers and support their faith. No doubt the difficult times of the Tribulation period will cause many to turn to God and Christ. But, it still has to be by faith.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Tiberius]

The evidence is overwhelming. You cannot produce any evidence whatsoever for your same nature on earth in the past. Every post you confirm it.

Your excuses for denying history and Scriptural records of the past are exposed as nothing but a choice to do so based on nothing.

The evidence is overwhelming. You cannot produce any evidence whatsoever for your different nature on earth in the past. Every post you confirm it.

Your excuses for denying history and science are exposed as nothing but a choice to do so based on nothing.