Ancient Reality

[cladking]

Words are not required as shown in my previous post

I missed that post. Are you sure it actually posted?

How does one invent, hold, or communicate a belief with no words for "belief", "thought", taxonomies, or reductionism? Do you believe that "beliefs" that spring to mind like a "thought"? They do to us but THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE WORD "thought". If a belief did spring to mind how could you communicate it to someone else without words for "belief", "thought", taxonomies, or reductionism. So now you are suggesting that the exact same belief in thousands of gods magically arose in everyone at once?

Why won't you address the actual facts instead of playing word games? I fully understand that we don't really understand the salient points here but the fact is there ius still AMPLE EVIDENCE that you never addressed that the ancients had no concept of "thinking" and you are ADDITIONALLY ignoring the fact that they had no words for "thinking". They left no evidence any of them were familiar with the idea of "thought". This all exists DESPITE THE FACT that we can't even imagine the concept of not thinking, not categorizing, not believing, and not reducing reality to concepts. We can't imagine not building models of our beliefs. We can't imagine a language that doesn't work EXACTLY LIKE OURS. We can't imagine a language that was logical, sensible, and that meant exactly what it said and it had to work exactly that way because people were not able to understand abstraction.

I can post actual evidence and logic all day long and then you're going to say "no" because you already know for a fact that ancient people were highly superstitious and scientists are the crown of creation. Your faith can't be shaken by anything and you don't even care that Egyptologists lack the data to solve how the pyramids were built. It doesn't concern you that there is NO DIRECT EVIDENCE of any sort any great pyramid was a tomb. You're not concerned that Egyptology rests on assumptions because you';re cool with the assumptions. Like everybody it is comfortable sitting at the top of the food chain and the crown of creation. Heaven forfend you should find out that the human race has devolved so far that very few of us could even be trained to help build the pyramid. We couldn't even do the most menial tasks because we couldn't learn the language. Even if we were brought up in 5,000 BC only about 80% of us could learn enough to function.

People are afraid of the concept of "ancient civilization" because on some level they know that there really was a "golden age" and this sure as hell ain't it.

 

[cladking]

The purpose of the inscriptions and writings was to help the deceased pharaoh to return to life after his death again, and since this work was contrary to nature and the laws of life, magic had to be relied upon to complete it.

Yes. This is what the authors of the "book of the dead" believed.

But the great pyramid builders had no beliefs at all. They built pyramids as a means of remembering the dead king. They were merely mnemonics so the king wouldn't be forgotten. But these kings were also written in the stars so their own historyu would be remembered.

The star charts, the ancient histrory, are still lying in wait for us under the NE corner of G1 because THIS SPECIFIC pyramid was more than a mere mnemonic, it was also a time capsule.

...holy liquid is called osiris liquid...

Tell me about this. Is it "mfkzt".

...bread of life and living water...

You may well be seeing what I see from a different angle.

 

[cladking]

well, that is pretty much standard when studying religions or ancient topics, since by now they have been through many hands, and there are many biases, however i do not discriminate based on labels..... and am interested in seeing all sides of the story.

given the consistent mishandling of antiquities and history by the so called 'experts' in the field and the pejorative light it is always cast in, I by nature do not rely on what they say out front, but rather through the sides, and carry a big bucket of salt [so to speak]
it is like a legal case, all sides have to be heard, and of course there will be emotions involved as these things touch things that are close to home and heart and can incite passion and more...

We seem to have a very similar perspective.

But then I suppose most wise men have always had doubts about things that are taken for granted. People build layer upon layer of speculation and we even do this on a generational scale. We quote et als who were just guessing in the first place and build wondrous monuments to beliefs and best guesses.

 

[MNoBody]

We seem to have a very similar perspective.

But then I suppose most wise men have always had doubts about things that are taken for granted. People build layer upon layer of speculation and we even do this on a generational scale. We quote et als who were just guessing in the first place and build wondrous monuments to beliefs and best guesses.

line upon line, precept upon precept, in this way the house is built said the wise guys in the quarries
pretty good advice

 

[ChristineM]

I missed that post. Are you sure it actually posted?

How does one invent, hold, or communicate a belief with no words for "belief", "thought", taxonomies, or reductionism? Do you believe that "beliefs" that spring to mind like a "thought"? They do to us but THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE WORD "thought". If a belief did spring to mind how could you communicate it to someone else without words for "belief", "thought", taxonomies, or reductionism. So now you are suggesting that the exact same belief in thousands of gods magically arose in everyone at once?

Why won't you address the actual facts instead of playing word games? I fully understand that we don't really understand the salient points here but the fact is there ius still AMPLE EVIDENCE that you never addressed that the ancients had no concept of "thinking" and you are ADDITIONALLY ignoring the fact that they had no words for "thinking". They left no evidence any of them were familiar with the idea of "thought". This all exists DESPITE THE FACT that we can't even imagine the concept of not thinking, not categorizing, not believing, and not reducing reality to concepts. We can't imagine not building models of our beliefs. We can't imagine a language that doesn't work EXACTLY LIKE OURS. We can't imagine a language that was logical, sensible, and that meant exactly what it said and it had to work exactly that way because people were not able to understand abstraction.

I can post actual evidence and logic all day long and then you're going to say "no" because you already know for a fact that ancient people were highly superstitious and scientists are the crown of creation. Your faith can't be shaken by anything and you don't even care that Egyptologists lack the data to solve how the pyramids were built. It doesn't concern you that there is NO DIRECT EVIDENCE of any sort any great pyramid was a tomb. You're not concerned that Egyptology rests on assumptions because you';re cool with the assumptions. Like everybody it is comfortable sitting at the top of the food chain and the crown of creation. Heaven forfend you should find out that the human race has devolved so far that very few of us could even be trained to help build the pyramid. We couldn't even do the most menial tasks because we couldn't learn the language. Even if we were brought up in 5,000 BC only about 80% of us could learn enough to function.

People are afraid of the concept of "ancient civilization" because on some level they know that there really was a "golden age" and this sure as hell ain't it.

Post 456

I have been through all this before, pretending it never happened and starting over again will not change the facts

 

[cladking]

All those paintings are over 20,000 years old and can be viewed in cro magnon caves within 50km of Les Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil in the Dordogne, France?

You've already been caught posting a painting by Helen Frankenthaler; an abstract artist. You do realize Frankenthaler is in NO WAY abstract anyway other than in being deceased? She was a real artist who used a style of painting we call "abstract". And she had nothing to do cave painting and, I believe, mostly used canvas or paper.

You choose to make this conversation as abstract as possible but to the small degree we communicate at all it is concrete. Ancient people lived ONLY in the concrete as proven by their lack of vocabulary for ANY ABSTRACT TERMS WHATSOEVER. A hand on a wall with paint around it REPRESENTS the individual who put his own unique hand there and blew paint at it. It is in NO WAY SYMBOLIC OR ABSTRACT. That is what you see because YOU CAN ONLY SEE WHAT YOU BELIEVE exactly like all human beings (Homo Omnisciencis). But thise hands weren't created by Homo Omnisciencis!!! They were created by their Homo Sapien parents and then left on the wall by the individual whom inherited that very hand. EVERYTHING in ancient writing and art was REPRESENTATIVE. Even their words were representative of the object to whichg they referred. This is WHY there were no abstractions; you can't represent an abstraction with a representative language. If your brain operates on a representative language you don't think, believe, or understand an abstraction.

ANCIENT PEOPLE WERE NOT LIKE US. They weren't even the same species.

 

[cladking]

Post 456

I have been through all this before, pretending it never happened and starting over again will not change the facts

You have shown NO ABSTRACT ART except Frankenthaler's who wasn't even the same species and those behind the hands on the wall.

These are simple concepts.

 

[Agnostisch]

well, that is pretty much standard when studying religions or ancient topics, since by now they have been through many hands, and there are many biases, however i do not discriminate based on labels..... and am interested in seeing all sides of the story.

given the consistent mishandling of antiquities and history by the so called 'experts' in the field and the pejorative light it is always cast in, I by nature do not rely on what they say out front, but rather through the sides, and carry a big bucket of salt [so to speak]
it is like a legal case, all sides have to be heard, and of course there will be emotions involved as these things touch things that are close to home and heart and can incite passion and more...
but from what i read through on his site, it seemed that there would be new evidence presented
and as i have only read the quran somewhat about 30 yrs ago, new insights from this cultural perspective are useful.
the Yemen connections to this are interesting as it lines up with what i learned from another fellow who had come from there and knew much about the traditions and such

I can't believe The story of the Jews was in Yemen, where archaeologists found nothing to prove their presence in Egypt !!! But as Muslim, the narrative is clear, the story of Moses's dialogue with God in the Holy Valley, and the story of the teh in the Sinai desert, even the name of Moses, an Egyptian, (i.e., the son of water) MO = water and SES = son
IN ARABIC ..
موسى .. مو = الماء
سى = ابن
موسى = ابن الماء

 

[ChristineM]

ANCIENT PEOPLE WERE NOT LIKE US. They weren't even the same species.

I apologize if i inadvertently posted the wrong image, the fact remains two of those i posted were created over 20,000 years ago by cro magnon people.

And yes, cro magnon were 100% human, precisely the same species so your invalid/mistaken claim shows exactly the limit if your knowledge. Thank you, i im done here

 

[MNoBody]

I can't believe The story of the Jews was in Yemen, where archaeologists found nothing to prove their presence in Egypt !!! But as Muslim, the narrative is clear, the story of Moses's dialogue with God in the Holy Valley, and the story of the teh in the Sinai desert, even the name of Moses, an Egyptian, (i.e., the son of water) MO = water and SES = son
IN ARABIC ..
موسى .. مو = الماء
سى = ابن
موسى = ابن الماء

thanks for the translation, haven't spent any time with Arabic so that is useful

about the other, it is a hard thing to decide...there is a fellow in the UK who has written about how these allegorical events actually occurred in the British Isles, and very extensive research to corroborate....

i find these things intriguing and sometimes compelling as well, then i put it back on the table and look at the next item, eventually patterns emerge which tell more, if one is patient enough

[thanks to all the rabid book burning of the past, destruction of records, this tedious and lengthy literary forensics has become a necessity and an open mind like sherlock holmes sifting the evidence using the comparative method a requirement, if one is to avoid being swept up in the hysteria of mystery religion ......that bunch that has covered the world in ignorance, and left man bereft of knowledge of our collective heritage.]

 

[MNoBody]

Moses may be derived from the dual name of Shu [Ma-Shu] which denotes Anhur, who manifests in the 2 characters of Ma and Shu which is a personification of light and shade which is continued in the exodus story
shu-anhur is also the water-born [addressed in the Magic Papyrus as 'the unique lord issuing from the Nun'...which is the firmamental water and from which Shu as the breathing force was born as the son of Nun.

 

[cladking]

I apologize if i inadvertently posted the wrong image, the fact remains two of those i posted were created over 20,000 years ago by cro magnon people.

And yes, cro magnon were 100% human, precisely the same species so your invalid/mistaken claim shows exactly the limit if your knowledge. Thank you, i im done here

Calling them "people" is just words. I am saying they were at least two species past and they didn't understand any abstractions either. Averring that hands left on walls is evidence for abstraction means nothing. Yes, I'm fully aware that everyone believes that science works by a sort of magic and that it's apparent that pyramids were built with ramps by superstitious bumpkins. I understand people believe agriculture was invented through trial and error and that we are the crown of creation. But I can show we are looking at everything wrong and you are not addressing my argument. I have shown that ancient reality is different and that experiment has various interpretations.

If it's abstract art shouldn't you be able to interpret it for us? Shouldn't you be able to show what abstraction these "people" were displaying? Shouldn't we all be able to see this abstraction?

Even if you were correct that they didn't need a word for "belief" in order to harbor beliefs how is it possible that two centuries of studying ancient beliefs have not even revealed the meaning or origin of even the simplest and most fundamental terms? How could these simple superstitious people invent abstractions beyond our ken?

 

[ChristineM]

Calling them "people" is just words. I am saying they were at least two species past and they didn't understand any abstractions either. Averring that hands left on walls is evidence for abstraction means nothing. Yes, I'm fully aware that everyone believes that science works by a sort of magic and that it's apparent that pyramids were built with ramps by superstitious bumpkins. I understand people believe agriculture was invented through trial and error and that we are the crown of creation. But I can show we are looking at everything wrong and you are not addressing my argument. I have shown that ancient reality is different and that experiment has various interpretations.

If it's abstract art shouldn't you be able to interpret it for us? Shouldn't you be able to show what abstraction these "people" were displaying? Shouldn't we all be able to see this abstraction?

Even if you were correct that they didn't need a word for "belief" in order to harbor beliefs how is it possible that two centuries of studying ancient beliefs have not even revealed the meaning or origin of even the simplest and most fundamental terms? How could these simple superstitious people invent abstractions beyond our ken?

Sorry bud. The jury has returned many years ago on the status of cro magnon, they were 100% human

European early modern humans - Wikipedia

 

[cladking]

Sorry bud. The jury has returned many years ago on the status of cro magnon, they were 100% human

European early modern humans - Wikipedia

Can you show the experimental basis for differentiating animals from humans? I have to believe that it focused on the nature and consciousness.

It's funny that we put things into nice little taxonomies just so we don't have to think about it any longer. Meanwhile the ancients didn't have words like "think", taxonomy, or any reductionistic words like "experiment".

Science outside of experiment has no meaning. Wiki says ancient people were superstitious and changeless bumpkins who dragged tombs up ramps so why not just cut to the chase and post a link to the final answer?

There is NO EXPERIMENT that shows how ancient people thought and the only clues we have is they had no word for "thought" and left hand prints as REPRESENTATIONS of themselves on cave walls. Cro Magnon did the same thing but that doesn't mean we know how they thought and it doesn't mean we understand the nature of consciousness. It doesn't mean they were the same species as the pyramid builders.

You are using words to make a point that only can be made by evidence and logic. Pictures that support EXACTLY what I'm saying do not support your beliefs.

 

[ChristineM]

Can you show the experimental basis for differentiating animals from humans? I have to believe that it focused on the nature and consciousness.

It's funny that we put things into nice little taxonomies just so we don't have to think about it any longer. Meanwhile the ancients didn't have words like "think", taxonomy, or any reductionistic words like "experiment".

Science outside of experiment has no meaning. Wiki says ancient people were superstitious and changeless bumpkins who dragged tombs up ramps so why not just cut to the chase and post a link to the final answer?

There is NO EXPERIMENT that shows how ancient people thought and the only clues we have is they had no word for "thought" and left hand prints as REPRESENTATIONS of themselves on cave walls. Cro Magnon did the same thing but that doesn't mean we know how they thought and it doesn't mean we understand the nature of consciousness. It doesn't mean they were the same species as the pyramid builders.

You are using words to make a point that only can be made by evidence and logic. Pictures that support EXACTLY what I'm saying do not support your beliefs.

No. I have provided evidence at the foot of the page i linked are several academic references.

Facts do not need your approval

 

[cladking]

No. I have provided evidence at the foot of the page i linked are several academic references.

Facts do not need your approval

Maca-Meyer N, González AM, Larruga JM, Flores C, Cabrera VM (2001). "Major genomic mitochondrial lineages delineate early human expansions". BMC Genet. 2: 13. doi:10.1186/1471-2156-2-13. PMC 55343. PMID 11553319.

So you BELIEVE in this source or one of the other 52 sources cited there is experimental evidence that Cro Magnons were human, had the same consciousness we do, and that the great pyramid builders did as well.

I know for a fact I could follow every single one of these references and every single one of the references listed in those references ad infinitum and NO EXPERIMENT UNDERLIES THESE BELIEFS. You can follow every single references to anything ever written by an Egyptologist and never find an experiment or evidence to support the beliefs that stinky footed bumpkins dragged tombs up ramps. Meanwhile it is a FACT that they didn't even have a word for "belief" and literally said over and over that the pyramid was NOT A TOMB and was the king himself.

"He, he is the pyramid."

This is what they ACTUALLY said. Egyptologists parse this to mean "He, he is buried in the pyramid".

There is nothing complicated about this argument but very very few people ever address even the tiniest part of it. HE IS THE PYRAMID!!!! The pyramid was no tomb, the builders said they washed their feet in natron and water, linear funiculars were used to build them, and Egyptologists are the stinky footed bumpkins.

Why don't you just tell me what evidence and experiment makes cro magnon just like Egypotologist? Then tell us what evidence you have that make the pyramid builders just like Egyptologists. No. In point of fact you and Egyptologists just pigeon hole everything into nice little taxonomies based on appearances and Look and See Science. There is no science in any taxonomy. Taxonomies can reflect experiment, they simply don't normally except to the degree models are designed to reflect experiment and are composed of beliefs expressed in language that contains taxonomies. I don't believe you understand any of this.

It doesn't matter who first assumed something. It is still an assumption. Even after you've invested 150 years into building on the assumptions what you've built is still resting on an assumption rather than bedrock.

Why not address the actual issuers here. It has been shown how pyramids were built and Egyptology is ignoring the solution as resolutely as they ignore evidence and modern science. They will ignore until people (Homo Omnisciencis not Cro Magnon) demand better. They will ignore gathering data and scientific results until people set a higher standard. They will always be afraid of the pyramid until they turn around and look at it. It doesn't bite.

No fact needs my approval but guess what, they don't need your approval either and they don't need to even be acknowledged by Egyptologists. They can keep their backs turned from the pyramids until the sun grows dim and still the pyramids will have been built by pulling stones straight up the sides of five step pyramids one step at a time.

 

[ChristineM]

Maca-Meyer N, González AM, Larruga JM, Flores C, Cabrera VM (2001). "Major genomic mitochondrial lineages delineate early human expansions". BMC Genet. 2: 13. doi:10.1186/1471-2156-2-13. PMC 55343. PMID 11553319.

So you BELIEVE in this source or one of the other 52 sources cited there is experimental evidence that Cro Magnons were human, had the same consciousness we do, and that the great pyramid builders did as well.

I know for a fact I could follow every single one of these references and every single one of the references listed in those references ad infinitum and NO EXPERIMENT UNDERLIES THESE BELIEFS. You can follow every single references to anything ever written by an Egyptologist and never find an experiment or evidence to support the beliefs that stinky footed bumpkins dragged tombs up ramps. Meanwhile it is a FACT that they didn't even have a word for "belief" and literally said over and over that the pyramid was NOT A TOMB and was the king himself.

"He, he is the pyramid."

This is what they ACTUALLY said. Egyptologists parse this to mean "He, he is buried in the pyramid".

There is nothing complicated about this argument but very very few people ever address even the tiniest part of it. HE IS THE PYRAMID!!!! The pyramid was no tomb, the builders said they washed their feet in natron and water, linear funiculars were used to build them, and Egyptologists are the stinky footed bumpkins.

Why don't you just tell me what evidence and experiment makes cro magnon just like Egypotologist? Then tell us what evidence you have that make the pyramid builders just like Egyptologists. No. In point of fact you and Egyptologists just pigeon hole everything into nice little taxonomies based on appearances and Look and See Science. There is no science in any taxonomy. Taxonomies can reflect experiment, they simply don't normally except to the degree models are designed to reflect experiment and are composed of beliefs expressed in language that contains taxonomies. I don't believe you understand any of this.

It doesn't matter who first assumed something. It is still an assumption. Even after you've invested 150 years into building on the assumptions what you've built is still resting on an assumption rather than bedrock.

Why not address the actual issuers here. It has been shown how pyramids were built and Egyptology is ignoring the solution as resolutely as they ignore evidence and modern science. They will ignore until people (Homo Omnisciencis not Cro Magnon) demand better. They will ignore gathering data and scientific results until people set a higher standard. They will always be afraid of the pyramid until they turn around and look at it. It doesn't bite.

No fact needs my approval but guess what, they don't need your approval either and they don't need to even be acknowledged by Egyptologists. They can keep their backs turned from the pyramids until the sun grows dim and still the pyramids will have been built by pulling stones straight up the sides of five step pyramids one step at a time.

I am not arguing against confirmation bias or ignorance of human history, facts don't change because they font match your crazy ideas, get over it

 

[cladking]

It doesn't matter who first assumed something. It is still an assumption.

And herein lies the real problem. We started with false assumptions such as humans are intelligent, reality is manifest before our eyes, and we think therefore we are. We've built an edifice on this which has no foundation. Fortunately we used experiment to create most of it so all we really need to do is tweak the interpretations to reflect reality; humans are not intelligent, only humans see only what they believe, and thought is irrelevant to consciousness and should be to experiment. We can never understand anything at all about life and changes in life without first understanding consciousness.

 

[cladking]

I am not arguing against confirmation bias...

earlier you were a big believer in dunning kruger...

 

[ChristineM]

earlier you were a big believer in dunning kruger...

And what has that to do with it?