Signs of the Times - What’s happening to our world?

[Jim]

What do you disagree with me on?

I’m interested in finding out where we agree, and where we disagree. I see that we disagree about following the House of Justice. You say that you follow Bahá’u’lláh. I’m trying to learn to do that too. For me, part of following Bahá’u’lláh is trying to understand His purposes and to follow His prescriptions for living, in every part of my life. Are we in agreement about that?

 

[Trailblazer]

For me, part of following Bahá’u’lláh is trying to understand His purposes and to follow His prescriptions for living, in every part of my life. Are we in agreement about that?

Yes.

 

[Jim]

For me, part of following Bahá’u’lláh is trying to understand His purposes and to follow His prescriptions for living, in every part of my life. Are we in agreement about that?

Yes.

For me, that includes Him saying that after His death He wants His followers to follow Abdu’l-Baha. Part of following Bahá’u’lláh is following Abdu’l-Baha. If we aren’t trying to follow Abdu’l-Baha, then we are acting contrary to Bahá’u’lláh’s wishes. For me, turning to Abdu’l-Baha as Bahá’u’lláh wishes for us to do includes following all of Abdu’l-Baha’s advice about how to spread the message of Bahá’u’lláh. Are we in agreement about that?

 

[Jim]

@Trailblazer For me, following Bahá’u’lláh includes following all of Abdu’l-Baha’s instructions in his will and testament. Are we in agreement about that?

For me, following Bahá’u’lláh includes following all of Abdu’l-Baha’s advice about what to do for Baha’u’llah. I think that Abdu’l-Baha advised us to go to him, Abdu’l-Baha, to find out what to do, if there are disagreements about that between us. Are we in agreement about that?

 

[Trailblazer]

I was talking about your idea of it would be unjust to allow Hitler to enter the gates of Heaven to experience eternal bliss. I said why do you care, what difference does it make. You said because I want justice. And I said if you want justice you will have to find it in a court of secular law. Again, who cares if God loves Hitler anyway. It's not like how God treats Hitler is going to prevent you from entering the gates of Heaven. And I said, what difference does it. And you then said because it's "unjust".

This has nothing to do with me and whether I get to heaven. I do not agree that justice is only to be found in a court of law because I believe God is just and justice will be served in the afterlife, however God serves it.

Well, there you have it. You want justice. You want to see people burn in Hell for all eternity. Or go to one of your Messenger's levels were souls of certain levels go based on how they are judged.

I never said anything about anyone burning in hell for eternity, but I do believe that people go to levels depending upon their faith and deeds in this life. This has nothing to do with Messengers; I read that in other books about the afterlife. I never said the levels they go to is determined by God’s judgment; I said people will reap what they sow. In other words, people determine where they will end up by their own actions.

As I said, I don't think God cares about the affairs of man. I said, God loves every facet of His creation equality no matter what.

And I already said I believe that God loves everyone but God does not consider everyone equal.

“Let no one imagine that by Our assertion that all created things are the signs of the revelation of God is meant that—God forbid—all men, be they good or evil, pious or infidel, are equal in the sight of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 187

You do not have to agree with that but there is no point arguing about it because I am not going to change my mind nor are you.

I choose the second option. You seem to be choosing the first option.

Please stop speaking for me. I never said I hate God. I also choose the second option.

You do it all the time. Did you not just say "Have you watch the news". You are constantly judging people as superior and inferior based on their beliefs. You have strong opinions on who is going to be saved and who is not. I just gave the opinion an omnipotent God would not care about sin because an omnipotent God would have no reason to care.

I never judged anyone as superior and inferior based on their beliefs. In fact, I never judged anyone at all. I only ever said that God can judge anyone He so pleases to judge.

God cares if we sin because God cares about us, not because it affects Him.

I think labeling someone as "evil" is purely a subjective opinion and has nothing to do with facts. What is evil and what is not evil is a relationship between two people. So if what is evil is so subjective, which person does God use as His definition of what is evil?

God sets His own standards for what is evil. Who God considers evil depends upon what God knows about them, what their circumstances are. That does not depend upon relationships between people.

How do you know God makes a choice at all? What I mean by petty human desires of revenge and hate is people want God to make a choice because of their own reasons. My argument has been why would God care or have a need to make a choice at all? When we die our soul returns back to God from whence we came. We die, we go into the light, we experience God, done. But it's not a bad thing. Looking into the face of God and experiencing God's infinite beauty is the greatest possible experience we can have. All our needs and desires will be fulfilled. We will become complete, whole, and perfect just like God in this moment. There is nothing left to do than to just be with God.

I am not saying that God makes the choice and determines where we end up. We determine where we end up according to the choices we made in this life. You want to make it simple, everyone goes into the Light, but that is a fantasy.

I do not believe that when we die, we go into the light, we experience God, done. I do not believe that anyone will ever look into the face of God and experience God's infinite beauty or that all our needs and desires will be fulfilled or that we will become complete, whole, and perfect just like God in this moment or that there will be nothing left to do than to just be with God.

Nobody knows what will happen to us when we die, so why make things up?

Yes, I agree our omnipotent God knows every choice we will ever make. However, I do not believe our existence has no purpose. I have argued we live in a cyclical Universe. In one cycle of the Universe we make once set of choices. In another cycle of the Universe we make another set of choices.

Apparently you believe in many lives, which is reincarnation. I do not share that belief.

Now you may think this is all fantasy delusion. But I would like to point out what do think BEING omnipotent means? What else could being omnipotent mean other than seeing or experiencing the result of every possible possibility realized in some version of reality. God is the alpha and omega of experience.

Being omnipotent has nothing to do with experiencing anything. It means being all-powerful.

What I think being omnipotent means to humans is as follows.

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

Now explain me why you think your lesser god of judgment will judge us one way or the other based on one cycle of the Universe? My God is the God of the Multiverse of time and not just the god of this one universe.

I do not believe in cycles. I believe that the human soul comes into being at the moment of conception, we are born into a body, we live one life on earth, we die and then the soul ascends to the spiritual world and continues to advance spiritually for all of eternity.

Maybe this idea of a cyclical Universe is just too big for your mind to grasp.

I do not concern myself with how the Universe came into being. That does not change my belief that we only have one life on Earth and after that we ascend ti the spiritual world where we continue to exist for eternity.

For me this is one of the main problems of putting all your faith in scripture coming from goat herders 2000 years ago. This is year 2020. Not many of us are still herding goats! Our understanding of the Universe is much bigger than 2000 years ago.

My beliefs are not based upon the Bible, they are based upon the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

I do not understand your obsession with justice. If you want justice the only place to get it is from a secular court of law. As I've said people do pay a steep price for their acts of evil. As I've said I believe in the golden rule of karma. If you cause suffering in others you will live a life of suffering here and now in equal proportion.

I am not obsessed with justice, but I believe it is as important as love. I believe we might get justice in this life but not always so if we don’t get justice in this life we will get it in the next life. I believe we may or may not pay a steep price for acts of evil in this life but we will continue to pay the price in the afterlife simply because we take everything that we have become in this life to the next life.

The way the human mind works is when we act badly, we create a cycle of self-loathing. This self-loathing will cause us to create conditions in our lives that will cause us to suffer in equal proportion. We will then commit more acts of evil in response to our own self-inflicted suffering. There's not much God has to do to ensure justice. We do it to ourselves!

You are wrong about that. Some people will feel guilty if they act badly but many people who act badly will not have self loathing because they have no conscience, so those people with no conscience will not suffer. Those people who feel appropriate guilt for bad actions will not repeat those actions because it does not feel good to feel guilty. Those who continue to commit more acts of evil are those who have no conscience.

I will prove to you this is true. I keep answering your posts thinking this time she will be satisfied and go away. And boom, I continue to suffer!

I will be glad to go away. Just don’t answer my posts. I might go away anyway because I see no point covering the same ground over and over and over again.

God is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires. Why would God have any reason to "deal with people" whatever this means? You are implying God has needs. This means you think God is NOT perfect, whole, and complete.

We covered this before. God does not deal with people because God has needs, God deals with people because God is just and merciful and people have a need for justice and mercy.

This is what I mean when I say you worship a lesser god. You seem to think God has some desire for justice. I've asked you five times why you think God has any needs at all but you just ignore the question. Of course, I'm sure the Holy Messengers have told you God has needs.

I have answered the question five times. You just do not like or understand my answer. Baha’u’llah said point blank God has no needs. Humans have needs so God meets those needs. How much simpler can I put this?

God doesn’t force anyone into the light. There is just no other place to go but into the light.

There is no hell. When we die, we go into the light and experience God’s infinite beauty. This is our last and final experience.

Dream on.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm way too busy with my studies of panpsychism at the moment. Maybe you can just touch on one or two main points or themes. Please do not quote scripture. I want to hear it from your own voice.

One of the themes is that there are levels or spheres that we go to in the afterlife and that we gravitate towards our moral center of gravity. Another theme is that there is such a thing as hell but it is not a place, it is a thought region.

“I have looked into hell! I may have to return to that region. I shall be given my choice. Grant that I may be strong enough to offer myself freely. Hell is a thought region. Evil dwells there and works out its purposes. The forces used to hold mankind down in the darkness of ignorance are generated in hell! It is not a place; it is a condition. The human race has created the condition. It has taken millions of years to reach its present state. I dare not tell you what I saw there.... At first I refused to go.... There was no life, no light there. One felt stagnation everywhere. The angel said that was the most insidious kind of hell, stagnation, because no one recognised it as such. Contrary to belief, hell itself, or rather that part of it visited by my brother and the angel, is brilliantly lighted. The light is coarse, artificial. It keeps out the light of God. In this awful glare the angel's light nearly lost its radiance.” Private Dowding, pp. 32-33

Here’s a book you might find interesting:
https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering-ebook/dp/B00EXOFDXI/

You would be surprised by how far modern human psychology has progressed in the last 50 years! There's a really interesting archetype they talk about called the Weakling King.

Thanks, I am interested in psychology.

How do you know you are not deluding yourself when you think you are a separate consciousness from God. We could all be like neurons within the mind of God.

Because I believe what Baha’ul’lah wrote about the soul retaining its individuality, and that has been confirmed by all afterlife books I have read. I also believe what Baha’u’llah wrote about God being separate from His creation and as such we can never “merge” with God.

I'm pretty sure Hell only exists on Earth. I live in New Jersey.

I am pretty sure hell exists in the afterlife too, from all accounts I have read including scriptures I have read. Hell is a state of the soul that is far from God. God does not draw someone near if he chooses to be far because that violates free will.

What is hellish about New Jersey? I know a guy on another forum who just loves NJ, but he lives far from the city.

You really love your authoritarianism. I very much doubt our omnipotent God of unconditional love has any needs or desires for our "allegiance ". Any god requiring allegiance is a lesser god who has needs. A perfect God needs nothing from us.

As I have said 100 times over, God has no needs. Our allegiance to God is for OUR benefit, not for God’s benefit – God needs nothing from us.

No, it's very different. I am not telling you what to think. I am not telling I know the mind of God. What I am telling you is I am CHOOSING to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love who allows everyone through the gates of Heaven to experience eternal bliss regardless of our Earthly sins or how we practiced or not practiced our religion. Unconditional means no conditions. I may be wrong. But therefore my faith is stronger than yours. I am trusting my all-loving God to be all-loving.

Why do you choose to believe in such a God you have no evidence for? I think it is because you want God to be that way, and that is why I said “whatever floats your boat.”

Your faith is not stronger than mine just because you are trusting an all-loving God to be all-loving. I am trusting in God to be Loving and Just.

Whereas you are telling me your Messengers actually speak for God through revelation which is the same thing as saying they are speaking for God directly. You are telling me your Messengers are telling you how to believe, how to achieve salvation, and what will happen to you after you die. As if they know from direct experience!

Since Baha’u’llah received a direct revelation for God He knew what the afterlife would be like without having to actually experience it. Baha’u’llah did not reveal much of that to us because He knew we would not be able to understand it and because if He told us more we would not want to remain in this life for one more minute and the fabric of society would be destroyed.

I'm sure your Messengers have very well thought out and wise opinions on matters of spirituality. I never said they did not. What I did say is you are assuming your messengers are speaking for God directly or indirectly in some way. I do not accept your opinion on what someone else is saying about God. In my opinion, anyone who claims they or someone else is speaking for God, either directly or indirectly through revelation, is delusional.

You are free to believe that if you want to. You have plenty of company.

You might find this surprising but there is some pretty good evidence the Gospels were written by the Romans. Google, "Caesar’s Messiah Joseph Atwill youtube". Atwill makes a very convincing argument the gospels were fabricated by the Romans as war-time occupational propaganda.

I do not believe that, but it is a great way to try to discredit the Bible.

If you do not see the problem with scripture stating "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God" then I just give up. If you can't see that there is something seriously wrong with Romans 13:1 then I am speechless!

I am not a Christian so I do not live by the NT. There are a lot of problems with the gospel according to Paul. It is not the gospel of Jesus.

In my opinion, religion should have nothing to do with government. And further, authoritarianism is a horrible basis for religion. And even further, you would think an omnipotent God would be slightly more egalitarian with His divine form of government than what is defined by Romans 13:1!

I agree. Baha’is have nothing to do with government. We are non-political.

You say arrogant and I say self-esteem. I am confident in my own beliefs. My faith in an all-loving God is unshakable. I do not share your fears with regards to obedience to authority. Life is already suffering. No matter what happens after I die, I will continue to have faith in my all-loving God.

I say self-confidence but whenever anyone is that confident it does not leave any room for error. Sure, I am also confident of my beliefs, but that confidence does not come from within me. It comes from faith in Baha’u’llah. By contrast, your faith is in yourself.

There is nothing wrong with having faith in an all-loving God but an all-loving God can also be just.

I say you have fears. What happens to you if you do not believe the way the Messengers are telling you how to think?

The Messengers did not tell me how to think, I choose to believe what Baha’u’llah revealed. If not I would lose my faith. Likewise, if you chose to not listen to yourself you would lose your faith in the God you imagine exists.

I cannot disagree more strongly. The people around us matter the most! Our omnipotent God needs nothing from us. God will be the same God no matter what happens between human beings. But when you cause someone else to suffer as a result of your actions you will experience the results of your bad behavior sooner rather than later.

I agree with you up to this point.

I don't understand why you think it is not important to get forgiveness from people we have sinned against. I suffer enough in my life. The last thing I want to do is crap all over someone and then deal with MORE suffering on the kick-back from the go-around. What goes around comes around!

I did not say it is not important, I said it is not always possible and nobody owes us forgiveness that would be a gift. Try this: If you don’t want to suffer then don’t sin against other people.

I never said in definitive terms my God exists. What I said was "I choose to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love". Then I went on to describe what an "omnipotent God of unconditional love" would be like. And then I said based on your ideas of "unjust" would imply you are worshiping a lesser god. Look, it's very simple. My God is stronger because my God doesn't need any Messengers. My God is all-loving. That's pretty much it. With my God, there are no scriptures to quote as if you are speaking for God. All you have to do is go into the light.

But your God is not real, so what’s the point? Do you want to believe in a fantasy just because it feels good? You want to make God simple, but it is not simple. God is much more than you believe. God is love but God is much more than love.

Sorry, I have no interest in another god of judgment. I've studied several. I am very busy with my studies in panpsychism.

Those books are not about a God of judgment, quite the contrary:

“I want to say a few words about love--very few, because I know so little. Also because love is spoken about too much already, whereas it should be lived. If you would dwell in peace, learn to love deeply. Never cease from loving. Jesus said a good deal about love, if I remember rightly. Look up what He said and live it.

Love God by pouring yourself away. Love your fellows by giving them all you possess of light and truth.

Love LOVE for her own blessed sake. Such love will bring you nearer heaven.

I have spoken about illusion several times. I return to it once more. I begin to see that phenomenal existence, whether on earth or here, is so impermanent as to be unreal. This is a hard saying. I do not yet understand it.

Live above those conditions which, after much meditation, appear to you to be illusory. That is the best advice I can give.” Private Dowding, pp. 37-38

 

[Trailblazer]

or me, turning to Abdu’l-Baha as Bahá’u’lláh wishes for us to do includes following all of Abdu’l-Baha’s advice about how to spread the message of Bahá’u’lláh. Are we in agreement about that?

Yes.

 

[Jim]

Yes.

I think of the House of Justice in the same ways that Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi say to think about spiritual assemblies.

Abdu’l-Baha says:

“These Spiritual Assemblies are shining lamps and heavenly gardens, from which the fragrances of holiness are diffused over all regions, and the lights of knowledge are shed abroad over all created things. From them the spirit of life streameth in every direction. They, indeed, are the potent sources of the progress of man, at all times and under all conditions.”

Shoghi Effendi says:

“And now as I look into the future, I hope to see the friends at all times, in every land, and of every shade of thought and character, voluntarily and joyously rallying round their local and in particular their national centres of activity, upholding and promoting their interests with complete unanimity and contentment, with perfect understanding, genuine enthusiasm, and sustained vigour. This indeed is the one joy and yearning of my life, for it is the fountain-head from which all future blessings will flow, the broad foundation upon which the security of the Divine Edifice must ultimately rest.”

That’s how I think Bahá’u’lláh wants His followers to think and feel about the Universal House of Justice.

Part of my disagreement with Baha’is promoting and defending their beliefs in Internet discussions might be about what Bahá’u’lláh means by “unity,” and what makes it possible.

 

[Jim]

@Trailblazer I’m thinking now that my views about the kind of unity that Baha’u’llah is aiming for, how it can happen, and how He wants his followers to work together to spread His message, might be very much opposed to your views and the views of other Baha’is in Internet discussions.

 

[Jim]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg @Trailblazer I’m trying to learn more about where we agree and where we disagree. I’ll be saying how it looks to me from what I’ve seen you saying and doing in Internet discussions, so you czn correct me if you want to, if you think that I’m misunderstanding you.

I’m thinking now that you might be thinking of unity as being like some of the best times that you’ve had with some other people sometimes, and maybe you think that all of the people of the world will feel that way with each other when most or all people learn to believe in all the Baha’i teachings. Then by a process of consultation, they will all agree on some plans that everyone will follow, to solve all the world’s problems and bring peace, justice and prosperity to all people. Is that anything like what you’re thinking?

 

[Jim]

Trailblazer, Tony, I think that actually we might have very different views of what Bahá’u’lláh means by “manifestation of God,” and maybe even what He means by “God.” In fact we might have very different views about all Baha’i teachings and everything in Baha’i writings. You might think that makes unity impossible between us. What I think makes unity impossible between us, in what we’re doing for Baha’u’llah in Internet discussions, is your rejection of the goals and plans of the House of Justice as our common ground.

 

[Jim]

Tony, Trailblazer, another possible disagreement between us might be when, where, how and with whom to practice consultation. I think that the consultation that Bahá’u’lláh wants us to practice includes consulting with each other about what we’re doing in Internet discussions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Part of my disagreement with Baha’is promoting and defending their beliefs in Internet discussions might be about what Bahá’u’lláh means by “unity,” and what makes it possible.

What do you think Baha'u'llah meant by unity and what do you think makes it possible?

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer I’m thinking now that my views about the kind of unity that Baha’u’llah is aiming for, how it can happen, and how He wants his followers to work together to spread His message, might be very much opposed to your views and the views of other Baha’is in Internet discussions.

How so?

 

[Trailblazer]

I’m thinking now that you might be thinking of unity as being like some of the best times that you’ve had with some other people sometimes, and maybe you think that all of the people of the world will feel that way with each other when most or all people learn to believe in all the Baha’i teachings. Then by a process of consultation, they will all agree on some plans that everyone will follow, to solve all the world’s problems and bring peace, justice and prosperity to all people. Is that anything like what you’re thinking?

No, that is not what I am thinking.

I think it would be good if more people knew about Baha'u'llah so they could choose to believe in Him or not, but even if everyone was Bahais, there will always be differences as you know.

Regarding Unity, I believe in Unity in Diversity.
I seek to make all men and women my friends, regardless of what they believe or disbelieve.

“Consider the world of created beings, how varied and diverse they are in species, yet with one sole origin. All the differences that appear are those of outward form and colour. This diversity of type is apparent throughout the whole of nature.

Behold a beautiful garden full of flowers, shrubs, and trees. Each flower has a different charm, a peculiar beauty, its own delicious perfume and beautiful colour. The trees too, how varied are they in size, in growth, in foliage—and what different fruits they bear! Yet all these flowers, shrubs and trees spring from the self-same earth, the same sun shines upon them and the same clouds give them rain.....

Thus should it be among the children of men! The diversity in the human family should be the cause of love and harmony, as it is in music where many different notes blend together in the making of a perfect chord.....

Likewise, when you meet those whose opinions differ from your own, do not turn away your face from them. All are seeking truth, and there are many roads leading thereto. Truth has many aspects, but it remains always and forever one.

Do not allow difference of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate you from your fellow-men, or to be the cause of dispute, hatred and strife in your hearts.

Rather, search diligently for the truth and make all men your friends.”Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 51-53

Those are excerpts.... For the whole chapter: BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do not allow difference of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate you from your fellow-men, or to be the cause of dispute, hatred and strife in your hearts.

That is the difficult one, as one can only control their heart and not of the person they are talking to.

So even though we have a different opinion that we offer, in a diversity of understanding, it will never be allowed to become hatred and stife in one's own heart against another soul.

It becomes a way to learn, in each exchange. We either learn from another, or learn from what we have offered and gain more wisdom in the way it was offered.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

That is the difficult one, as one can only control their heart and not of the person they are talking to.

That is true, we cannot control other people's hearts, we can only control our own heart, if we are lucky.

We cannot control people, places and things -- I learned that 30 years ago in the 12 step programs.
That is why we need to focus on ourselves, with other people in mind.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That is true, we cannot control other people's hearts, we can only control our own heart, if we are lucky.

We cannot control people, places and things -- I learned that 30 years ago in the 12 step programs.
That is why we need to focus on ourselves, with other people in mind.

There is one thing I have noticed with more or less every follower of Baha`i faith, and that is how nice everyone seems to be it is a beautiful way to look at life to me it seems like Baha`i followers are full of compassion and empathy for others and that is something we all should look up to and try to use as a guide for our own lives, but it does not mean we all have to become Baha'i in my view

 

[CG Didymus]

After all, the demons believe and know God but the demons do Not serve God

Yes, because of inherited human imperfection from sinner Adam we will make choices, right or wrong choices.

I don't think Baha'is believe in demons and inheriting sin. Maybe Tony or Trailblazer could give the Baha'i belief on those. 'Cause right now, it's like taking a knife to a gun fight. They don't believe the Bible like you do, so it doesn't work to use the Bible with them.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is one thing I have noticed with more or less every follower of Baha`i faith, and that is how nice everyone seems to be it is a beautiful way to look at life to me it seems like Baha`i followers are full of compassion and empathy for others and that is something we all should look up to and try to use as a guide for our own lives, but it does not mean we all have to become Baha'i in my view

Thanks for your kind thoughts Amanaki.

No, I do not think everyone has to become a Baha'i. All the people of the world are not ready to unite under one religion yet. Based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote, I believe in the distant future there will be one common Faith, but I do not know what it will be called.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91