Elective surgery is banned unless... it is for abortion

[Shaul]

All the surgeries mentionned in the article aren't time sensitive. They are often necessary and can leave a patient in pain (though often can be managed properly), but they aren't urgent in any way shape or form else they wouldn't be "elective surgeries". You can wait for months before getting those procedures and for many people with lower grade insurrance plans you are forced to wait for months by design. As for the cancerous lesion on the skin many are actually benign and don't need to be removed urgently like solar keratosis. Abortions are always time sensitive and the sooner they are done the easier and the quicker they are. In other words, it's a good policy to maintain abortion services while other elective surgeries can be pushed back in times of crisis.

Wrong. Several of them a quite time sensitive. Delaying skin lesion removals and hip replacements leads to increased numbers of deaths.

The key issue, as I see it, is that the government should not be the institution making these decisions. The individuals and the medical professionals are much better suited to make these decisions, IMHO.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You ascribe to me motives you ineluctably can not know.

Ineluctably?

I am more concerned with the aspect of how nameless, faceless bureaucrats are making life and death decisions over people’s healthcare. Ultimately it is your “women’s reproductive rights” that is the red herring.

Fair point.

 

[Cooky]

My conscience favors statistics bedside that is how we find if simething is working or not. America in regards to upward mobility is not,and a few people does not make it a success. In America, poverty is multigenerational.

So you openly admit that your conscience is more inclined to favor statistics over love... Interesting... But sad IMO.

...I have trouble trusting people like that. I certainly wouldn't reveal anything confidential or heartfelt to anyone who holds that kind of view. I would fear such information would only return judgementalism and not compassion in return.

 

[Cooky]

Honest question, can you biologically become pregnant?

No. I was born male and without uterus.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

In Britain, the NHS is suspending "non-urgent elective surgery". Not, you will note, surgery that is life-saving or time-sensitive. And the decision was taken by the NHS and implemented by individual hospitals — not by the government. Why does everything in the USA get politicised?

 

[columbus]

Honest question, can you biologically become pregnant?

I rather resent this blanket ad hominem.

When I was 20 my girlfriend and I made a baby. I was also pregnant. I knew that. "We" were "with child". It wasn't just her.
Tom

 

[columbus]

We should note that it's natural for chimps to
war, to murder, to steal, & to eat their fellows.

This is exactly why I find the words natural and unnatural so useless in conversations about ethics.
Morality is mostly unnatural behavior patterns. So is cooking.

The big difference between humans and animals is our ability to engage in unnatural behavior. But, we are still animals and tend towards natural behavior like theft, rape, dominance, and murder.

To me, that's the real Problem of Evil. Why does God keep making humans with human nature? My answer is that there's no God who cares.

Tom

 

[Cooky]

This is exactly why I find the words natural and unnatural so useless in conversations about ethics.
Morality is mostly unnatural behavior patterns. So is cooking.

The big difference between humans and animals is our ability to engage in unnatural behavior. But, we are still animals and tend towards natural behavior like theft, rape, dominance, and murder.

To me, that's the real Problem of Evil. Why does God keep making humans with human nature? My answer is that there's no God who cares.

Tom

But think about it Tom, we've progressed to certain norms now as humans. And so those norms *are* natural.

...But it's not natural to want to eat other people or do other 'negative' things anymore. So what's natural depends on what the majority would actually want to do.

Shouldn't our progress be viewed as natural? In your opinion? I don't see how it wouldn't, since it occured.

 

[columbus]

But think about it Tom, we've progressed to certain norms now as humans. And so those norms *are* natural.

Then you have a different meaning for the word natural than I generally use.

We've progressed to having large quantities of radioactive waste to deal with. To having people substitute Facebook for friends. To destroying the biosphere. To megachurches.
Etc.

Those aren't things I consider natural. Perhaps you differ.
Tom

 

[columbus]

So you openly admit that your conscience is more inclined to favor statistics over love... Interesting... But sad IMO.

There are many aspects of reality that are better expressed through mathematics(statistics) than platitudes or anecdotes.
Tom

 

[columbus]

Shouldn't our progress be viewed as natural? In your opinion? I don't see how it wouldn't, since it occured.

That's a remarkably materialistic world view.
Sure, in some ways our progress is a natural outcome of clever killer apes learning stuff about physics better than morality.
Tom

 

[Willamena]

Perhaps you were not aware how delaying these other “elective” procedures can impact people. Delaying a skin lesion removal, by even days, can lead to irreversible skin cancer which could have been cured. Likewise those that don’t get a needed hip replacement can cause death within 12 months. In other words, delaying these other elective procedures will cause people to die.

Do you still feel these other procedures are “more elective” than abortions?

It’s not a contest.

 

[Cooky]

That's a remarkably materialistic world view.
Sure, in some ways our progress is a natural outcome of clever killer apes learning stuff about physics better than morality.
Tom

I have a serious issue with those considering "natural" as being explicitly non-human.

...Viewing apes, and all other mammals as natural, but not human activities as being natural is illogical. As humans, we have naturally evolved to be where we are right now with all of our dilemmas, which we deal with together as a species. This is natural. And what the majority rules, over time, will be the natural result of nature.

We truly are the diamonds of life in this respect. That we pave the way of nature on a level unique to our species. We are nature magnified. Literally -- We are the magnifying glass of life itself.

 

[Revoltingest]

This is exactly why I find the words natural and unnatural so useless in conversations about ethics.
Morality is mostly unnatural behavior patterns. So is cooking.

The big difference between humans and animals is our ability to engage in unnatural behavior. But, we are still animals and tend towards natural behavior like theft, rape, dominance, and murder.

To me, that's the real Problem of Evil. Why does God keep making humans with human nature? My answer is that there's no God who cares.

Tom

When the subject of "unnatural" came up,
I instantly thought of you.

 

[Cooky]

It's better to imagine life in reverse, where humans are the beginning, and the simplest forms of life are the end. Don't let the order of time dictate your perspective when studying what's natural about life.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

How can you say that? A young girl forced into a life of poverty and public assistance. Plans for college or high school graduation abandoned. Prospects of a good job or career gone?
And what about prospects for the child? Poverty breeds poverty. The chances of a child of the underclass bettering himself are not good. The chances of him ending up in prison, on the other hand, are considerably better.

For most who oppose abortion, it is an idee fixe that cannot be altered by such arguments. They will always argue that living -- even a horrible life -- is always better than not living.

Of course, they cannot see what silliness that is. I can remember absolutely nothing about the world, or me, before a couple of years after I was born. Thus, had I not been born, there would be no me to be conscious of not having been born, and therefore to regret that I wasn't.

Trust me, what I just wrote will go right over the anti-abortionsts' heads.

 

[Cooky]

For most who oppose abortion, it is an idee fixe that cannot be altered by such arguments. They will always argue that living -- even a horrible life -- is always better than not living.

Of course, they cannot see what silliness that is. I can remember absolutely nothing about the world, or me, before a couple of years after I was born. Thus, had I not been born, there would be no me to be conscious of not having been born, and therefore to regret that I wasn't.

Trust me, what I just wrote will go right over the anti-abortionsts' heads.

I'm open to dialogue and interdependent learning... But it seems like you've already cut me off, and set me aside.

Positive Interdependence in Collaborative Learning - ScienceDirect

 

[columbus]

I'm open to dialogue and interdependent learning... But it seems like you've already cut me off, and set me aside.

Let's start with what you mean by the word "natural".

By your expressed meaning, replacing the fish in the ocean with plastic trash is natural.
Tom

 

[McBell]

But think about it Tom, we've progressed to certain norms now as humans. And so those norms *are* natural.

...But it's not natural to want to eat other people or do other 'negative' things anymore. So what's natural depends on what the majority would actually want to do.

Shouldn't our progress be viewed as natural? In your opinion? I don't see how it wouldn't, since it occured.

Seems you are being inconsistent.
If human behavior is natural and abortion is included in human behaviour it too is natural, right?
But here in this thread you claim abortion is not natural.{post #33}

So it appears to me you are now arguing against your own claim.

 

[Cooky]

Let's start with what you mean by the word "natural".

By your expressed meaning, replacing the fish in the ocean with plastic trash is natural.
Tom

That's a good point to reflect on. Since I don't see negative traits as something humans tend to work toward purposely. I think our most common goal, would be to rid the world of plastic in the ocean, since the majority of humans would clearly not want that.

So no. It is not natural IMO. But then again, we've done it... So maybe it was natural to happen, but then it's also natural for us to "fix" it, and reform what's natural over time.