How do Christians view Judaism?

[Harel13]

I guess we wait together, you for the coming of the Messiah, and me for the Messiah to return. All known only to God.

And then what? (what I mean is, what's the point of two religions?)

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

Not sure if this is in the right section...
Anyway, through various discussions and, at times, heated debates online with Christians on different sites these last couple of years, I've come under the impression that at least some Christians view Judaism as "Christianity minus Jesus". Certainly, I'm pretty sure this is a mindset that groups like the Hebrew Christians and Messianic Judaism have used to preach to and convert Jews.

Is this really how Christians view Judaism?

Note: This isn't about what role Christians think Jews serve in the world, but about the religion itself.

I would venture to say that most "Jews" don't even know their own religious history.
For example : If I say that all Jews are Israelites, but all Israelites are not Jews...…which is true,
what does this mean ?

And another : The little country in the middle east today is not the "Israel" of the Hebrew scriptures.

 

[Harel13]

If I say that all Jews are Israelites, but all Israelites are not Jews...…which is true,
what does this mean ?

I don't know either what that means. I don't know what makes that statement true.

And another : The little country in the middle east today is not the "Israel" of the Hebrew scriptures.

That's true. It's only part of the larger Israel. But I assume you're going to give a completely different answer.

Bottom line, Judaism is irrelevant today? Christianity is the only relevant religion?

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

I don't know either what that means. I don't know what makes that statement true.

That's true. It's only part of the larger Israel. But I assume you're going to give a completely different answer.

Bottom line, Judaism is irrelevant today? Christianity is the only relevant religion?

The nation of "Israel" in scripture was 12 tribes . "Jews" refers to the tribe of Judah.
The nation of Israel was divided at one time, the northern kingdom of 10 tribes....and the southern kingdom of the priestly tribes...
the "Jews" ( Judah, and Levi primarily )
The northern kingdom (10 tribes) were "lost" historically when they were conquered and dispersed...
The southern kingdom is the little country in the middle east today
The northern kingdom today is several European nations with Britain and the USA being the primary inheritors of the birthright blessings
that Jacob ( ISRAEL ) gave to his sons (tribes).

All "Jews" are Israelites, but all "Israelites" are not Jews.

 

[RabbiO]

@coconut theology -

You wrote, inter alia, "The Jews of yesterday (Jesus day) are not the same as those which claim that designation today, which are nothing but Ashkenazic or Sephardic descent of pagan nations, which mainly (some exception, the torah Jews, which still cannot follow all of the torah, being absent of a Temple, High Priest, Ark of the Covenant, etc, and even if they had it, all of it would be of no avail, seeing as Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all of it) live their lives by Rabbinism, Talmudism and Kabbalism......"

After long and careful consideration, it would seem that the only appropriate response, better than a face palm emoji is:

 

[Iymus]

Note: This isn't about what role Christians think Jews serve in the world, but about the religion itself.

From trying the spirits and study:

Babylonian influenced; from Babylonian Captivity

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

From trying the spirits and study:

Babylonian influenced; from Babylonian Captivity

Was that suppose to be a coherent sentence?

 

[Iymus]

Was that suppose to be a coherent sentence?

Apologies that my words are not understood.

From listening to others and studying, my view on modern Judaism is that it is Babylonian Influenced, and perhaps from when the Jews were in Babylonian Captivity.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

This is so absolutely wrong!

Yet I gave explanation as to my conclusion. All you come back with is an empty 'feel good' opinion.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Deeje]

That's all well and good, but the question is about Judaism, not Christianity.

I gave you my answer.....I showed you how Christianity has imitated Judaism in many ways, even though Jesus never encouraged any of it in the "new covenant".

I said......
“Actually Christendom has turned Christianity into Judaism with Jesus.....

The Jewish religion from my perspective is that it forms the very foundation for everything I believe. I understand why the history of God's people is recorded in a 'warts and all' fashion in the scriptures, and how the physical patterns in the past represented something spiritual in the future. It is full of lessons...real life ones that exposed the good the bad and the downright ugly.

I don't see Jesus coming to start a new religion, but to institute a new covenant with new features that Jeremiah foretold, where the old ways would be no longer necessary. I see the Jewish religion stuck in the past, clinging to the old ways when they have been redundant for about 2000 years. I see the Jews still vainly waiting for a Messiah that will never come, enslaved to rituals that are no longer valid in their practice in today's world.

But Jews don't see Christians in the best light either.....its not a contest though. Its about whether Jesus was actually the Messiah and what it means for Jews if he was. What does it mean for Christians if he wasn't?”

How was that not how this Christian views Judaism?

These two “religions” see themselves as in competition somehow....both hold animosity and make accusations about one another, which is sad. If we all worship the same God, then surely by really “knowing” the God we worship, each will see the correct way to gain his favor, rather than getting into slanging matches.....?

The apostle Peter said....“Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.” (Acts 10:34-35)
Isn’t this what God’s promise to Abraham meant? That through the Jewish nation God would bless “all nations” by means of the seed that God would produce through Abraham’s descendants? (Genesis 22:18) So the question is..."did God produce the seed...or didn't he?"

It isn’t about one’s nationality anymore. So we see Jews stuck in the past, misled by their shepherds so that they missed the opportunity to accept a Messiah who fulfilled the messianic prophesies, but who did not fit their personal profile or expectation. Jesus exposed them for the hypocritical frauds that they had proven themselves to be, and they hated him for it.

What was the "new covenant" that Jeremiah foretold?
Jeremiah 31:30-32 (Tanakh)
"Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant. להִנֵּ֛ה יָמִ֥ים בָּאִ֖ים נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֑ה וְכָֽרַתִּ֗י אֶת־בֵּ֧ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֛ל וְאֶת־בֵּ֥ית יְהוּדָ֖ה בְּרִ֥ית חֲדָשָֽׁה:
31Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord. לאלֹ֣א כַבְּרִ֗ית אֲשֶׁ֚ר כָּרַ֙תִּי֙ אֶת־אֲבוֹתָ֔ם בְּיוֹם֙ הֶֽחֱזִיקִ֣י בְיָדָ֔ם לְהֽוֹצִיאָ֖ם מֵאֶ֖רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם אֲשֶׁר־הֵ֜מָּה הֵפֵ֣רוּ אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֗י וְאָֽנֹכִ֛י בָּעַ֥לְתִּי בָ֖ם נְאֻם־יְהֹוָֽה:

32For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people. לבכִּ֣י זֹ֣את הַבְּרִ֡ית אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶכְרֹת֩ אֶת־בֵּ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל אַֽחֲרֵ֨י הַיָּמִ֚ים הָהֵם֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה נָתַ֚תִּי אֶת־תּֽוֹרָתִי֙ בְּקִרְבָּ֔ם וְעַל־לִבָּ֖ם אֶכְתֳּבֶ֑נָּה וְהָיִ֚יתִי לָהֶם֙ לֵֽאלֹהִ֔ים וְהֵ֖מָּה יִֽהְיוּ־לִ֥י לְעָֽם:"

The "NEW" covenant was "NOT LIKE" the old one that Israel failed to keep. This covenant was not to operate by the old laws written on parchment, and the old ways (which today are really not much like the original ways prescribed by God in his words to Moses,) but these laws were to be inscribed on hearts, exercised by a person's own will and governed by their own conscience. It doesn't require a set of rigid nit-picking rules as if keeping these laws scrupulously was somehow all God wanted from his people. The religious leaders promoted this mindset, but the truth was, the law was perfect, but the people were not....not a soul could keep it perfectly so it became a curse that condemned them every day. It reinforced their need for permanent salvation....which would be provided by the Messiah.

Only a “remnant” of Israel was prophesied to be saved......
Isaiah 10:21-23...
"Only a remnant shall return, Only a remnant of Jacob, To Mighty God.
כִּ֣י אִם־יִהְיֶ֞ה עַמְּךָ֤ יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ כְּח֣וֹל הַיָּ֔ם שְׁאָ֖ר יָשׁ֣וּב בּ֑וֹ כִּלָּי֥וֹן חָר֖וּץ שׁוֹטֵ֥ף צְדָקָֽה׃
Even if your people, O Israel, Should be as the sands of the sea, Only a remnant of it shall return. Destruction is decreed; Retribution comes like a flood!
כִּ֥י כָלָ֖ה וְנֶחֱרָצָ֑ה אֲדֹנָ֤י יְהוִה֙ צְבָא֔וֹת עֹשֶׂ֖ה בְּקֶ֥רֶב כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃ (ס)
For my Lord GOD of Hosts is carrying out A decree of destruction upon all the land.
"לָכֵ֗ן כֹּֽה־אָמַ֞ר אֲדֹנָ֤י יְהוִה֙ צְבָא֔וֹת אַל־תִּירָ֥א עַמִּ֛י יֹשֵׁ֥ב צִיּ֖וֹן מֵֽאַשּׁ֑וּר בַּשֵּׁ֣בֶט יַכֶּ֔כָּה וּמַטֵּ֥הוּ יִשָּֽׂא־עָלֶ֖יךָ בְּדֶ֥רֶךְ מִצְרָֽיִם׃

Was that 'remnant' the Jews who followed Jesus out of an outdated and corrupt religious system that was past its "best before" date? Was the 'new covenant' inaugurated or not? Are we waiting for Christ's first coming...or his second?

So it all boils down to “who you believe” and "why" you believe them. Are we stuck with the beliefs of our upbringing, or can we evaluate the evidence for ourselves and come to our own conclusions? We are free to make our own choices, for our own reasons.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I accept most of this, however I do not believe those of the Jewish faith are enemies of Christ, rather, they are Gods people who refuse to accept the totality of their faith as given by God.You can say that their own choices keep them from advancing into the upper grades, they keep themselves held back in the lower grade.

This will change though. They will finally assume the role they were chosen for, preaching the love of their Messiah and God for all mankind, and his way of salvation when the world is in complete chaos and needs that message most,

Judaism rejects Jesus Christ. Just like Judaism that nailed Him to the Cross rejected Him. If you are not for Christ, you are against Christ.

I don't see any 'grades' in this matter. It is all of Christ or none of Christ.

Yes there will be a change when God removes Israel's blindness. Until then you can forget about the Jews as a people coming to Christ. And their Judaism stands in their way. There will always be a few individuals come to Christ who make up the Remnant of Israel. But Israel as a whole will not come till judgement and the lifting of God's judicial blindness.

And when that occurs, there will be no more 'Judaism'. It will be the true worship of God and Christ.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Kapalika]

In my experience, inaccurately, as far as projecting their own theology while erasing Jewish interpretations.

 

[pearl]

And then what? (what I mean is, what's the point of two religions?)

Should be one hell of a party. The answer to your question is well beyond my paygrade. Its a time of hope.

 

[pearl]

Yet I gave explanation as to my conclusion. All you come back with is an empty 'feel good' opinion.

The Jews did not nail Jesus to the cross, Pilate did.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

The Jews did not nail Jesus to the cross, Pilate did.

(Acts 2:22-23) (Acts 3:12-15)

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Jim]

Note: This isn't about what role Christians think Jews serve in the world, but about the religion itself.

What do you mean by “the religion itself”? The beliefs and practices? The communities? The institutions?

Are you asking what Christians think is the role of Judaism in the world today?

 

[Terry Sampson]

@Harel13

• Post #64 contains the following statement: "The northern kingdom today is several European nations with Britain and the USA being the primary inheritors of the birthright blessingsthat Jacob ( ISRAEL ) gave to his sons (tribes)."
  • That statement refers to the fun and cockamamie notion summed up in the term: "British- or Anglo-Israelitism".
  • British Israelism - Wikipedia
    • "The central tenets of British Israelism have been refuted by evidence from modern archaeological,[3] ethnological,[4] genetic,[citation needed] and linguistic research.[5][6]:"
    • "Earliest recorded expressions
      According to Brackney (2012) and Fine (2015), the French Hugenot magistrate M. le Loyer's The Ten Lost Tribes, published in 1590, provided the first expression that "Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Scandinavian, Germanic, and associated cultures"[7] were direct descendants of the ancient Israelites.[1] Anglo-Israelism has also been attributed to Francis Drake and James VI and I,[7] who believed he was the King of Israel.[1] Adriaan van Schrieck (1560–1621), who influenced Henry Spelman (1562–1641) and John Sadler (1615–1674), wrote in the early 17th century about his ideas on the origins of the Celtic and Saxon peoples. In 1649, Sadler published The Rights of the Kingdom, "which argues for an 'Israelite genealogy for the British people'".[7]
      
      Aspects of British Israelism and its influences have also been traced to Richard Brothers' A Revealed Knowledge of the Prophecies and Times in 1794, John Wilson's Our Israelitish Origin (1840s), and John Pym Yeatman's The Shemetic Origin of the Nations of Western Europe (1879)".
      • Terry's Note: I was unaware that King James VI and I thought he was the King of Israel. Guess that's why he commissioned the translation of Hebrew and Christian scriptures into English in the early 1600s,
      • I only know of two RF members who subscribe to that notion; there may be others. I don't think it's a common belief although I am aware of two "big name" characters who promoted it: Herbert Armstrong and the wild and wacky Reverend Gene Scott.
      • Enough said.

 

[Jim]

It's more an issue of different people having different roles in the world.

You started me thinking about different religions having different qualities and capacities that the world needs now, and I can see that as a likely possibility. It might take some time now for me to start seeing specifically what those might be. Can you think of some examples?

 

[Jim]

@Harel13 A few days ago the thought came to me that Jesus might have had a far reaching, beneficial influence on Judaism and what it does for the world. Now I’m thinking of Judaism and Christianity as taking the teachings of Jesus in two different directions, learning from them and applying them in different ways, and misunderstanding Him in different ways.

 

[coconut theology]

@coconut theology -

You wrote, inter alia, "The Jews of yesterday (Jesus day) are not the same as those which claim that designation today, which are nothing but Ashkenazic or Sephardic descent of pagan nations, which mainly (some exception, the torah Jews, which still cannot follow all of the torah, being absent of a Temple, High Priest, Ark of the Covenant, etc, and even if they had it, all of it would be of no avail, seeing as Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all of it) live their lives by Rabbinism, Talmudism and Kabbalism......"

After long and careful consideration, it would seem that the only appropriate response, better than a face palm emoji is:

View attachment 37223

So, Judaism today, how do you explain this (video, which shows a particular practice prevalent), according to the Torah, Nevi'im, or even Ketuvim?:

Where did this practice come from? Explain, using accepted sources by Judaism (today).