Rapture and Transformation

[sooda]

What if they get sucked into the intake of a jet engine?

Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD
www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830ad.htm

• 1. Rapture doctrine is one of the most recent "new doctrines" in the history of the Church.
  2. The fact that John Nelson Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine around 1830 AD is...
  3. Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.
  4. Darby has had a profound impact on religion today,...

 

[sooda]

Can that happen to a ghost? Can God/Jesus be held liable for manslaughter if that happens?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What's a secret rapture? I've only ever heard of pre-during- and post-Tribulation Raptures. The Left Behind book series made the pre-Tribulation enforced and popular, with all three having been debated and argued for awhile now.

 

[InChrist]

Credit for the rapture's origin generally goes to John Nelson Darby.

Maybe Darby highlighted it in his teaching, but I’d say the origin of the Rapture is the Bible.

 

[sooda]

Maybe Darby highlighted it in his teaching, but I’d say the origin of the Rapture is the Bible.

Its bad theology invented by Darby... and promoted by Cyrus Scofield to change Protestantism to support Christian Zionism.

 

[sooda]

What's a secret rapture? I've only ever heard of pre-during- and post-Tribulation Raptures. The Left Behind book series made the pre-Tribulation enforced and popular, with all three having been debated and argued for awhile now.

In Thessalonians the people wanted assurances that those who had died in the past would still have a shot at being with God.

1. The Rapture: A Popular but False Doctrine | United Church ...
   https://www.ucg.org/world-news-and-prophecy/the-rapture-a-popular-but-false-doctrine
   Aug 01, 2008 · The Rapture The origin of the rapture theory. Credit for its origin generally goes to John Nelson Darby,... Scofield picks it up. "Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by... Thin proof. For such a seemingly major doctrine, one might expect a weighty argument,... Flawed …
2. 
   
3. 
   
4. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the LORD's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
   
   
5. Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD
   www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830ad.htm
   • 1. Rapture doctrine is one of the most recent "new doctrines" in the history of the Church.
     2. The fact that John Nelson Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine around 1830 AD is...
     3. Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.
     4. Darby has had a profound impact on religion today,...

 

[InChrist]

Its bad theology invented by Darby... and promoted by Cyrus Scofield to change Protestantism to support Christian Zionism.

I don’t see that way, nor think it was a theology invented by any person, but a truth revealed by God to the early church.

 

[sooda]

I don’t see that way, nor think it was a theology invented by any person, but a truth revealed by God to the early church.

Horse****.. It was invented by Darby and promoted by Scofield with money from the leading US Zionist Samuel Untermeyer. Its purely a political ruse.

 

[Windwalker]

Thanks for your thoughts.
I don’t see it as escapism, rather a blessed hope, as the scriptures describe it. Some people have become obsessed with the rapture in an unbalanced way, which is too bad. I see it more as a purifying doctrine which causes one to be focused on loving and serving God and others instead of self-centered agendas.

That's an interesting view of it. I suppose in some sense to believe your ultimate state of being is more than this life, does give hope. I have that hope as well. I see Paul's view of this as an interesting metaphor to speak to our eternal natures. While I don't see it literally as many might, it still has truth in it, from a certain point of view.

What I object to, is when people spend their time fixated upon that as the ultimate hope for their miserable states of being. That's what I object to. But it is also a common theme among the saints, "I'll fly away, oh glory, I'll fly away. When I die, hallelujah by and by, I'll fly away", sung in the churches on Sunday mornings, programming us to look away from this life now. It fails to get us to look at the world in reverence, awe, and worship as the creation of that God we claim to love.

If we are looking to get out of this world, than we can't experience Peace here and now by denying it to ourselves. "I'll fly away oh glory, I'll fly away," really means escaping God, by looking for God in the future.

A technical term for that is spiritual bypassing, if you're interested in understanding more about that as a known thing.

I’ve not experienced any believer who thinks if one happens to be sinning at the moment of the rapture they would be left behind. Such an idea would then mean that all the responsibility is on the person, rather than Jesus Christ to be the Savior and Perfector of our souls.
Just my thoughts.

Haha. Yeah, I think I heard that probably within the first two weeks of joining that church I did out in Montana, way back when in my 20s. That church taught that televisions and movies were a doorway for the devil, "one-eyed devils", they called them. And one of the brothers told me that if the rapture happened if you were watching a TV, you'd get left behind and have to go through the tribulation. Oh, the things they believed.

In hindsight now, it seems to me he probably had a really strict father who he heard as the voice of God in his head, "If I catch you watching that TV, Gary, there'll be hell to pay". Quite literally so, when it comes to God. I personally was never fully able to try to relate to God that way, tried as I did to believe the Bible the way they read it.

 

[Windwalker]

I don’t see that way, nor think it was a theology invented by any person, but a truth revealed by God to the early church.

Which interestingly was never talked about by the church very much until him. But it's all the craze now, following a promotion spree. Yes, these things are read out of the bible from a certain preacher's point of view, become popular, become a teaching, become a book, etc. The origin of it really was him. All roads depart from him, not anywhere before him. I recall Hal Lindsey's book myself in my early teens. A very strange and frightening world to a young mind, full of fantastical mythic battles to come that will swallow the world whole.

So much for young minds to be afraid of in a world they should otherwise be enjoying. Fortunately, none of that spoke to me at that time. It was only later, when I bit on that hook because it was part of the church I joined. But I escaped that as a teen, mostly so.

 

[sooda]

Which interestingly was never talked about by the church very much until him. But it's all the craze now, following a promotion spree. Yes, these things are read out of the bible, become a theology, become a faith, become a book, etc. I recall Hal Lindsey's book myself in my early teens. A very strange and frightening world to a young mind, full of fantastical mythic battles to come that will swallow the world whole.

So much for young minds to be afraid of in a world they should otherwise be enjoying. Fortunately, none of that spoke to me at that time. It was only later, when I bit on that hook because it was part of the church I joined. But I escaped that as a teen, mostly so.

The theology of Cyrus Scofield really took hold during the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression.

 

[Windwalker]

The theology of Cyrus Scofield really took hold during the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression.

There was so much of that stuff going on back then in American history. So many revelations about hidden truths in the Bible, the soon return of the Lord, Utopian societies based upon these odds and ends preacher's new truths of this or that. Revivalism swept the nation, and in from the shore swept every bit of debris coming out of these preachers of God's truth. It was the backwash from the impact of modernity, like a giant rock in a small pond.

You're absolutely right that politics played right into exploit it for itself. You see the same monstrosity in the Christian evangelicals supporting Trump. All the chaos unfolding today, is a hideous result of these rapture ready folks trying to create Armageddon so they can greedily claim their prizes of heaven. While they create hell on earth, where no rapture comes, but just death and destruction.

Maybe the Catholics were right in not letting the laity have access to scripture. Look what happened.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In Thessalonians the people wanted assurances that those who had died in the past would still have a shot at being with God.

1. The Rapture: A Popular but False Doctrine | United Church ...
   https://www.ucg.org/world-news-and-prophecy/the-rapture-a-popular-but-false-doctrine
   Aug 01, 2008 · The Rapture The origin of the rapture theory. Credit for its origin generally goes to John Nelson Darby,... Scofield picks it up. "Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by... Thin proof. For such a seemingly major doctrine, one might expect a weighty argument,... Flawed …
2. 
   
3. 
   
4. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the LORD's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
   
   
5. Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD
   www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830ad.htm
   • 1. Rapture doctrine is one of the most recent "new doctrines" in the history of the Church.
     2. The fact that John Nelson Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine around 1830 AD is...
     3. Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.
     4. Darby has had a profound impact on religion today,...

Apparently I have just never heard of it called "secret rapture." It was one of the many "finer points" of church history I learned though. But it was something my mom taught to me even before the Left Behind series. And it's amazing how much of it I've still retained.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Its bad theology invented by Darby... and promoted by Cyrus Scofield to change Protestantism to support Christian Zionism.

What is your support for this allegation?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Horse****.. It was invented by Darby and promoted by Scofield with money from the leading US Zionist Samuel Untermeyer. Its purely a political ruse.

What is your support for this allegation?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Windwalker]

What is your support for this allegation?

It's not an allegation. It's history.

John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[1] and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]

John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia

------------

This view holds that the rapture will precede the seven-year Tribulation, which will culminate in Christ's second coming and be followed by a thousand-year Messianic Kingdom.[5][6] Adherents of this perspective are referred to as premillenial dispensationalists. This theory grew out of the translations of the Bible that John Nelson Darby analyzed in 1833. It was promulgated by the cult followers of Darbyism, a doctrine that has been deemed heretical by most mainstream Christians.[7][8] Pretribulationism is the most widely held view in America today, although this view is disputed within evangelicalism.[9]

Rapture - Wikipedia

----------------------

While early Christianity was intensely focused on eschatology (i.e., the study of the end of the world), the “end times” theology as we know it today is fairly recent. It began in England, among Puritan preachers in the 18th century such as Increase and Cotton Mather, who preached the notion of a “rapture” in which believers would be brought to Jesus before a period of “tribulation” and turmoil on earth, resulting in Jesus’s Second Coming.

The rapture concept then started to proliferate in America after the Civil War, through the efforts of figures like John Nelson Darby, who referred to it as Dispensationalism.

The idea of “Dispensationalism” is based on the idea that history is divided into different “dispensations,” or epochs. Different groups of Dispensationalists had different interpretations of exactly how many of these there were, but major epochs included the Law (the period between Moses and Christ), the period of Grace (Christ’s coming until the modern day), and, finally, the Kingdom, the epoch before the end of the world. That would begin with the rapture, continue through a period of turmoil and chaos — usually thought to be one millennium — ending with the Second Coming of Christ.

Central to Darby’s theology was the idea that the end of days would also include a fulfillment of the Old Testament promise to the Jewish people that Jerusalem would be restored to them. While subsequent dispensationalist preachers have differed on whether this happens before or after the rapture, in practice it means that Jerusalem is a vital part of many evangelicals’ narrative: The restoration of Jerusalem to the Jewish people is part of the sequence of events that heralds the end times.

https://www.vox.com/2017/12/12/1676...the-end-times-roy-moore-evangelical-jerusalem

-------------​

Now you know where to begin your search to better understand more about the history of this. You may also use that to examine what you believe. Understanding these things evolved in history through certain figures, puts things into a better, more realistic context rather than assuming everyone has always believed this way about things. They have not. This is a rather modern belief.

 

[sooda]

What is your support for this allegation?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Read the life of Cyrus Scofield and his relationship with Samuel Untermyer.. Then read about Samuel Untermyer's fundraising efforts and his declaration of war against all things German in 1933 from the safety of Madison Square Garden.

 

[InChrist]

That's an interesting view of it. I suppose in some sense to believe your ultimate state of being is more than this life, does give hope. I have that hope as well. I see Paul's view of this as an interesting metaphor to speak to our eternal natures. While I don't see it literally as many might, it still has truth in it, from a certain point of view.

What I object to, is when people spend their time fixated upon that as the ultimate hope for their miserable states of being. That's what I object to. But it is also a common theme among the saints, "I'll fly away, oh glory, I'll fly away. When I die, hallelujah by and by, I'll fly away", sung in the churches on Sunday mornings, programming us to look away from this life now. It fails to get us to look at the world in reverence, awe, and worship as the creation of that God we claim to love.

If we are looking to get out of this world, than we can't experience Peace here and now by denying it to ourselves. "I'll fly away oh glory, I'll fly away," really means escaping God, by looking for God in the future.

A technical term for that is spiritual bypassing, if you're interested in understanding more about that as a known thing.


Haha. Yeah, I think I heard that probably within the first two weeks of joining that church I did out in Montana, way back when in my 20s. That church taught that televisions and movies were a doorway for the devil, "one-eyed devils", they called them. And one of the brothers told me that if the rapture happened if you were watching a TV, you'd get left behind and have to go through the tribulation. Oh, the things they believed.

In hindsight now, it seems to me he probably had a really strict father who he heard as the voice of God in his head, "If I catch you watching that TV, Gary, there'll be hell to pay". Quite literally so, when it comes to God. I personally was never fully able to try to relate to God that way, tried as I did to believe the Bible the way they read it.

I certainly don’t think one should be so fixated on the rapture and leaving the earth that they miss all the beauty and blessings God gives each day. This is especially true for American Christians. Yet, there are people in this world and Christians in situations or other countries who are truly suffering. In such a situation the knowledge of Jesus coming at any moment to deliver them into eternity may be the only hope that sustains them. Besides, though there is much to be grateful for and appreciate on this earth, it is still a fallen world where life and creation is marred by sin. So I consider the promise of Christ to return to take believers to be with Him forever a blessed hope.

Your previous experience with church when you were younger does sound very bizarre. Where was that in Montana, if you don’t mind sharing? I came to know Jesus Christ as my Savior while living in Montana years ago. It wasn’t in a church though. I know there are some extremely weird churches, but I’ve not been involved with any that sound like the ones you have.

 

[InChrist]

Which interestingly was never talked about by the church very much until him. But it's all the craze now, following a promotion spree. Yes, these things are read out of the bible from a certain preacher's point of view, become popular, become a teaching, become a book, etc. The origin of it really was him. All roads depart from him, not anywhere before him. I recall Hal Lindsey's book myself in my early teens. A very strange and frightening world to a young mind, full of fantastical mythic battles to come that will swallow the world whole.

So much for young minds to be afraid of in a world they should otherwise be enjoying. Fortunately, none of that spoke to me at that time. It was only later, when I bit on that hook because it was part of the church I joined. But I escaped that as a teen, mostly so.

Maybe the church didn’t talk about the coming of Christ and the blessed hope, but Jesus and Paul did, right?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

It's not an allegation. It's history.

John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[1] and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]

John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia

------------

This view holds that the rapture will precede the seven-year Tribulation, which will culminate in Christ's second coming and be followed by a thousand-year Messianic Kingdom.[5][6] Adherents of this perspective are referred to as premillenial dispensationalists. This theory grew out of the translations of the Bible that John Nelson Darby analyzed in 1833. It was promulgated by the cult followers of Darbyism, a doctrine that has been deemed heretical by most mainstream Christians.[7][8] Pretribulationism is the most widely held view in America today, although this view is disputed within evangelicalism.[9]

Rapture - Wikipedia

----------------------

While early Christianity was intensely focused on eschatology (i.e., the study of the end of the world), the “end times” theology as we know it today is fairly recent. It began in England, among Puritan preachers in the 18th century such as Increase and Cotton Mather, who preached the notion of a “rapture” in which believers would be brought to Jesus before a period of “tribulation” and turmoil on earth, resulting in Jesus’s Second Coming.

The rapture concept then started to proliferate in America after the Civil War, through the efforts of figures like John Nelson Darby, who referred to it as Dispensationalism.

The idea of “Dispensationalism” is based on the idea that history is divided into different “dispensations,” or epochs. Different groups of Dispensationalists had different interpretations of exactly how many of these there were, but major epochs included the Law (the period between Moses and Christ), the period of Grace (Christ’s coming until the modern day), and, finally, the Kingdom, the epoch before the end of the world. That would begin with the rapture, continue through a period of turmoil and chaos — usually thought to be one millennium — ending with the Second Coming of Christ.

Central to Darby’s theology was the idea that the end of days would also include a fulfillment of the Old Testament promise to the Jewish people that Jerusalem would be restored to them. While subsequent dispensationalist preachers have differed on whether this happens before or after the rapture, in practice it means that Jerusalem is a vital part of many evangelicals’ narrative: The restoration of Jerusalem to the Jewish people is part of the sequence of events that heralds the end times.

https://www.vox.com/2017/12/12/1676...the-end-times-roy-moore-evangelical-jerusalem

-------------​

Now you know where to begin your search to better understand more about the history of this. You may also use that to examine what you believe. Understanding these things evolved in history through certain figures, puts things into a better, more realistic context rather than assuming everyone has always believed this way about things. They have not. This is a rather modern belief.

If you're going to answer for another, at least pay attention to what was said. The allegation is that dispensationalism and pre-millennium rapture was political and created and promoted to further Christian Zionism. You need to show that that was the motive of Darby and Scofield.

Good-Ole-Rebel