Arizona Republican Proposes Trio of Laws That Would Allow Schools to Discriminate Against Transgende

[Saint Frankenstein]

Worked well for me. It that case I do know what I'm talking about.

Not when it comes to trans people.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I know that there is more to be learned about transgenderism. But from what I can see those behind the transgender rights have more evidence that supports their side. I go with the evidence. How much is it going to harm a teacher to address a student by the gender that the student prefers? It is a small pain for the teacher and a large pain for the student to be misidentified. I am going to go with the students for this one.

 

[Nakosis]

I was born a white male, and am heterosexual. But, suppose I consider changing my identity to that of a Native American female lesbian. Suppose I want to attend graduate school and get a Ph.D with my new identity. I should now be eligible for minority scholarships and special treatment. Even though I look like a white male, I'm not a white male, and y'all are bigots for assuming my gender and race and I should be eligible for special treatment and, not to mention, reparations for the suffering that the race I'm transitioning to has experienced. After all, my birth certificate and the biological reality of my anatomy and ancestry don't matter. The only thing that matters is the racial and sexual identity that I choose to label myself with, right?

Best not to play the game at all, because if you don't play it according to society's "rules" you not going to win. Trying to get society approval, that depends on whichever way the wind blows. Sometimes it blows your way, sometimes it doesn't. Certainty not something to depend your happiness on.

You want to be a Native American female lesbian, fine by me. Doesn't threaten me at all. If your happiness is going to depend on societal acceptance, wouldn't hold your breath. Maybe 10 years from now it's going to be a thing. 20 years from now, they'll jail you for that kind of stuff.

 

[Nakosis]

Not when it comes to trans people.

Who's fault is that? Not mine. I don't make up society's rules. It's fine, I have no expectations for folks. They can be however they want but there is always going to be those that do have expectations. Never ending battle. I wouldn't expect any real peace that way.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Who's fault is that? Not mine. I don't make up society's rules. It's fine, I have no expectations for folks. They can be however they want but there is always going to be those that do have expectations. Never ending battle. I wouldn't expect any real peace that way.

I'm talking about you basically saying that trans people should just get over society mistreating us.

 

[Revoltingest]

I was born a white male, and am heterosexual. But, suppose I consider changing my identity to that of a Native American female lesbian. Suppose I want to attend graduate school and get a Ph.D with my new identity. I should now be eligible for minority scholarships and special treatment. Even though I look like a white male, I'm not a white male, and y'all are bigots for assuming my gender and race and I should be eligible for special treatment and, not to mention, reparations for the suffering that the race I'm transitioning to has experienced. After all, my birth certificate and the biological reality of my anatomy and ancestry don't matter. The only thing that matters is the racial and sexual identity that I choose to label myself with, right?

The old Elizabeth Warren strategy, eh.
It might come back to bite you.

 

[Nakosis]

I'm talking about you basically saying that trans people should just get over society mistreating us.

Not saying that at all. Just saying there's a way to never be mistreated again. A person can either take charge of that for themselves or hope/wait for others to take care of it.

 

[Nakosis]

The old Elizabeth Warren strategy, eh.
It might come back to bite you.

Sometimes society blows your direction, sometimes it blows the other way. A person can stand there huffing and puffing all they want. I suppose if you can get enough folks huffing and puffing with you, you might even get a temporary change in wind direction.

Less anxiety IMO, to not depend on society's wind to set your course.

 

[dianaiad]

How about just call the kids by name. Don't use pronouns.

That works too.

Unless of course "Harry" demands to be called "Harriette." Or vice versa.

I just think that the situation with transgendered children shouldn't be something TEACHERS should have to address and handle. If the guardians haven't done what they need to do in order to fix the records, then it's way too much to demand that the schools, especially the teachers, do it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sometimes society blows your direction, sometimes it blows the other way. A person can stand there huffing and puffing all they want. I suppose if you can get enough folks huffing and puffing with you, you might even get a temporary change in wind direction.

Less anxiety IMO, to not depend on society's wind to set your course.

IOW, society always blows.

 

[shmogie]

A Republican Arizona state representative has introduced three laws that propose mandating binary sex identification on state documents and legally allowing public school employees to discriminate against transgender students by referring to them with incorrect pronouns......
Rep. John Fillmore proposed House Bill 2082 for the upcoming legislative session, according to a Tuesday report in the Arizona Mirror. The bill would prevent public schools from penalizing employees who use incorrect pronouns for transgender students. It would also prohibit schools from requiring that employees use correct pronouns for students, unless the pronoun "corresponds to the sex listed on that student's birth certificate."

A recent incident that would likely have had a different outcome under the proposed law involved an Arizona teacher who was fired in September 2019. The teacher allegedly insisted on using incorrect pronouns for transgender students, and failed one student for a school project that referred to gender identity. The teacher was also said to have lowered the grade of a student that admitted to being an atheist while proselytizing Christianity and attempting to distribute Bibles to students in class.

Although the law would seemingly help teachers legally discriminate against transgender students, Fillmore insisted the proposal was aimed at helping schools focus on issues like simple math instead of "sexual stuff."

Arizona Republican Proposes Trio of Laws That Would Allow Schools to Discriminate Against Transgender Students

It is impossible for anyone to change their sex. There are two, male and female. All the slicing and dicing in the world cannot change this.

A transgender person is not a transsexual person.

Gender is a social concept that has a myriad of meanings, and can change from day to day.

Someone who is "transgender" is pretending to be the other sex from which they were born, of which they are.

If you choose to a participant in their fantasy, their pretending, that is fine, but it isn't based in reality.

If I choose to stay in reality, that is fine too.

So, saying that calling a boy, a boy, or a girl a girl is incorrect is right out of Alice in Wonderland, turning reality upside down.

It might be best, to prevent hurt feelings, to avoid a pronoun based in the sex of an individual as far as possible, which is what I do when I come into contact with these folks. However, I will not slip into fantasy and call up down or blue red.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I suspect getting others to be nobel is pretty unrealistic itself. Good luck trying to get others to change. I find changing oneself to be far more realistic.

You can be noble yourself. You have that control.

 

[Nakosis]

You can be noble yourself. You have that control.

Thank you, exactly my point.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Thank you, exactly my point.

Great! I find that being noble in accepting people as they are even when they present themselves in non-traditional gender roles increases my own happiness.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

A problem too complex for simple rules.
But simple rules are about all schools can handle.
This won't be settled any time soon.

I do honestly believe that you are correct. I also rather suspect that we're on the "far side" of one of those swings of the pendulum that help us figure out how to deal with such complex issues.

For my own part, I think that we might finally get to where we've always been: that there are some basic "facts" about us as humans, and that some of us don't quite fit those basic facts, and thus can be (quaintly) called "different."

The basic facts:

• there really are only two sexes (with a miniscule number of genetic aberrations)
• there are all kinds of ways we can feel about ourselves, regardless of the hardware we're equipped with
• sometimes, our feelings don't match the hardware

• pronouns used when we're talking to one another are always neutral: in English, the only pronoun I use talking to anybody is you -- other languages have more, but they're all gender neutral
• pronouns used when talking about other people are matters of convenience -- not having to repeat the proper names over and over
• if somebody is talking about me, I don't much care if they call me Allen, he, she, it or "that person with the epic moustache" -- I'll get over it

 

[Revoltingest]

I do honestly believe that you are correct. I also rather suspect that we're on the "far side" of one of those swings of the pendulum that help us figure out how to deal with such complex issues.

For my own part, I think that we might finally get to where we've always been: that there are some basic "facts" about us as humans, and that some of us don't quite fit those basic facts, and thus can be (quaintly) called "different."

The basic facts:

• there really are only two sexes (with a miniscule number of genetic aberrations)
• there are all kinds of ways we can feel about ourselves, regardless of the hardware we're equipped with
• sometimes, our feelings don't match the hardware

• pronouns used when we're talking to one another are always neutral: in English, the only pronoun I use talking to anybody is you -- other languages have more, but they're all gender neutral
• pronouns used when talking about other people are matters of convenience -- not having to repeat the proper names over and over
• if somebody is talking about me, I don't much care if they call me Allen, he, she, it or "that person with the epic moustache" -- I'll get over it

My goal....
Sort it all out with maximal satisfaction for all,
with minimum infringement of liberty.
As for what the result will be, that's above my pay grade.

 

[fantome profane]

if somebody is talking about me, I don't much care if they call me Allen, he, she, it or "that person with the epic moustache" -- I'll get over it

That is cool that you are so chill about how people address you personally. But at the same time I think it is only polite to call people by the terms they prefer.

If you want me to call you Allen, I will. And if someone wants me to call them Jennifer, or Jenny, or Mark, or P.Diddy etc that is what I will do. Same for pronouns. It does me no harm, and it is only common curtesy.

 

[Shaul]

It is only your opinion that these laws discriminate.

 

[Twilight Hue]

A Republican Arizona state representative has introduced three laws that propose mandating binary sex identification on state documents and legally allowing public school employees to discriminate against transgender students by referring to them with incorrect pronouns......
Rep. John Fillmore proposed House Bill 2082 for the upcoming legislative session, according to a Tuesday report in the Arizona Mirror. The bill would prevent public schools from penalizing employees who use incorrect pronouns for transgender students. It would also prohibit schools from requiring that employees use correct pronouns for students, unless the pronoun "corresponds to the sex listed on that student's birth certificate."

A recent incident that would likely have had a different outcome under the proposed law involved an Arizona teacher who was fired in September 2019. The teacher allegedly insisted on using incorrect pronouns for transgender students, and failed one student for a school project that referred to gender identity. The teacher was also said to have lowered the grade of a student that admitted to being an atheist while proselytizing Christianity and attempting to distribute Bibles to students in class.

Although the law would seemingly help teachers legally discriminate against transgender students, Fillmore insisted the proposal was aimed at helping schools focus on issues like simple math instead of "sexual stuff."

Arizona Republican Proposes Trio of Laws That Would Allow Schools to Discriminate Against Transgender Students

Screw the pronouns. It's plain stupid to make laws over idiotic pronouns.

Moral of the story?

Grow a pair or get a pair attached.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Maybe adults should have learned that about their personal biases long since.

I think people should just use ones name and be done with it.