Against abortion or assisted dying? No med school for you

[Shad]

So what human beings are rightfully allowed to kill another human being? Outside of hospital that would be murder, and it is still murder within the hospital.

Keep in mind murder is just illegal killing. Any government can declare one type of killing murder or not if it wants. The question becomes one of morality and if the action is just. Tyrants can and will hide behind law and legal systems which they often create themselves so they can legally attacked those they wish.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your decisions of conscience shouldn't be part of that.

Decisions about what sort of care a patient should receive are the main focus of medicine. It's not unreasonable to expect that medical decisions will be based on medical judgements, not on the personal beliefs of someone who chose to practice medicine despite knowing that they couldn't do the job properly.

Medicine is always going to be fraught with these kinds of considerations. I actually think it's better to have varied viewpoints in this field so meaningful discussions can be had.

Discussions and varied viewpoints are fine, but we're talking about patient care.

There are people who believe with deep religious conviction that anaesthetic for women in labour is contrary to God's will. These people - if they would refuse anaesthetic to a woman in labour - should not be anaesthetists or obstetricians.

By the same token, someone who opposes proper end-of-life care on religious grounds should not be an oncologist, if their belief would stop them from providing proper care.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Keep in mind murder is just illegal killing. Any government can declare one type of killing murder or not if it wants. The question becomes one of morality and if the action is just. Tyrants can and will hide behind law and legal systems which they often create themselves so they can legally attacked those they wish.

I think this thread is more about the normal health personal who do a normal job, and not Tyrants. You will find idiots in all walks of life, but as trained Nurses or Doctors, the reason it is so long education is that they are there to save a life, not take them, or do mistakes that cause someone to die.

 

[Rival]

Decisions about what sort of care a patient should receive are the main focus of medicine. It's not unreasonable to expect that medical decisions will be based on medical judgements, not on the personal beliefs of someone who chose to practice medicine despite knowing that they couldn't do the job properly.


Discussions and varied viewpoints are fine, but we're talking about patient care.

There are people who believe with deep religious conviction that anaesthetic for women in labour is contrary to God's will. These people - if they would refuse anaesthetic to a woman in labour - should not be anaesthetists or obstetricians.

By the same token, someone who opposes proper end-of-life care on religious grounds should not be an oncologist, if their belief would stop them from providing proper care.

And as I've said before: have another doctor give the XYZ.

 

[Shad]

I think this thread is more about the normal health personal who do a normal job, and not Tyrants.

It doesn't matter. My example was to establish calling something legal or not can be very arbitrary.Tyranny of the majority or tyranny of the one. Both can be and have been arbitrary.

You will find idiots in all walks of life, but as trained Nurses or Doctors, the reason it is so long education is that they are there to save a life, not take them, or do mistakes that cause someone to die.

Do not get me wrong I agree with this. Abortion these days is about finances not life-threatening problems in the majority at least in the West.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I guess not, because I missed the memo that murder is okay.

If you think that abortion or assisted dying are "murder," then I hope you aren't in a medical profession.

Both are part of the standard of care. Someone who is unwilling to uphold the standard of their profession needs to find a different profession.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And as I've said before: have another doctor give the XYZ.

You missed my point: there often is no other doctor.

 

[Harel13]

standard

The standard of murder.

 

[Shad]

Decisions about what sort of care a patient should receive are the main focus of medicine

So you agree that the majority of abortions in the West should not be done as there are no medical reasons in most cases just financial and timing excuses

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The standard of murder.

Like I said: I hope you aren't in a medical profession.

 

[Spirit of Light]

It doesn't matter. My example was to establish calling something legal or not can be very arbitrary.Tyranny of the majority or tyranny of the one. Both can be and have been arbitrary.



Do not get me wrong I agree with this. Abortion these days is about finances not life-threatening problems in the majority at least in the West.

Yes, abortion often comes from (not always) young people regret having sex, and they have not thought through what they where doing unprotected. So they freak out and run to the hospital to get an abortion.

 

[Harel13]

Like I said: I hope you aren't in a medical profession.

I hope you aren't either.

 

[Rival]

You missed my point: there often is no other doctor.

Nonsense. There are many doctors and most abortions aren't needed because of medical emergencies. Not to mention, most pro-life people will be prepared to terminate a baby who is putting the mother's life at risk. This is even the position of Orthodox Judaism.

 

[Shad]

Yes, abortion often comes from (not always) young people regret having sex, and they have not thought through what they where doing unprotected. So they freak out and run to the hospital to get an abortion.

Yup. Hence why I call those type of abortions mulligans.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I guess not, because I missed the memo that murder is okay.

Luckily we are not discussing murder here. We are not even discussing a practice banned by the Bible. In fact it is one that is okay in the Bible.

 

[Shad]

You missed my point: there often is no other doctor.

Do consider that there are other procedures which are in demand so there are no doctors for those in various places anyways. More so rural facilities often can not cover specialized procedures. No one is demanding every doctor learn all those procedures due to lack of doctors in an area. Also consider that medical students can opt out of learning the procedure thus are not deny to do the procedure. They declined learning it. Just as student can decline learn any number of procedures

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nonsense. There are many doctors and most abortions aren't needed because of medical emergencies. Not to mention, most pro-life people will be prepared to terminate a baby who is putting the mother's life at risk. This is even the position of Orthodox Judaism.

This isn't just about abortion.

In fact, it's mostly not about abortion, since - at least here - family doctors generally don't do them, and no referral is needed.

These issues of "conscience" come up more often with regard to:

- getting (or filling) prescriptions for birth control.
- end-of-life care for patients in Catholic hospitals.
- basic medical care for trans people.

 

[Rival]

- getting (or filling) prescriptions for birth control.
- end-of-life care for patients in Catholic hospitals.
- basic medical care for trans people.

And aren't all these things going smoothly now? People can transition, there are many doctors willing to do that, as well as provide birth control and end-of-life care. I'm not actually sure what your problem is here. These things have been happening for decades now. Some people in the medical field happen to disagree with them; they're not stopping others from doing them.

 

[Harel13]

Luckily we are not discussing murder here. We are not even discussing a practice banned by the Bible. In fact it is one that is okay in the Bible.

Think what you wish.

 

[BSM1]

I guess not, because I missed the memo that murder is okay.

That was probably the same memo that explained "murder" is a legal term, not a talking point.