Against abortion or assisted dying? No med school for you

[Subduction Zone]

No, no bias at all whatsoever. Clear objectivity this here is.

Noah's Ark.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And this answers what I wrote about illegitimate kids, how exactly?

I do admit that I did ignore your very immoral depiction of God.

 

[Harel13]

I do admit that I did ignore your very immoral depiction of God.

Then you mis-understood my statement. I was not implying God is immoral, I was sarcastically looking at things the way you claimed they were, as I understood: This woman cheated, brought to the priest, passed the cheating test thanks to God's providence, keeps her illegitimate kid? Yeah? 'Cause God in the portion where He commands adultery clearly stated that: You shalt not commit adultery, whoso shall, shall be punished by death - except if that woman bears a child? Well, if that's the case, then yeah, guess I'm wrong.
Oh, wait, it doesn't say that? Must mean the Isha Sota wasn't pregnant.

 

[Rival]

The meaning is clear, in fact the people I am arguing against appear to accept that the woman was pregnant. More recent versions of the Bible also have changed some of the interpretations of the Bible due to an anti-abortion bias. One verse that was largely retranslated after Roe vs. Wade was Exodus 21:22, though some still describe the incident as a miscarriage:

Exodus 21:22 If men who are fighting strike a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband demands and as the court allows.

That is a miscarriage. They would have caused her to miscarry.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Then you mis-understood my statement. I was not implying God is immoral, I was sarcastically looking at things the way you claimed they were, as I understood: This woman cheated, brought to the priest, passed the cheating test thanks to God's providence, keeps her illegitimate kid? Yeah? 'Cause God in the portion where He commands adultery clearly stated that: You shalt not commit adultery, whoso shall, shall be punished by death - except if that woman bears a child? Well, if that's the case, then yeah, guess I'm wrong.
Oh, wait, it doesn't say that? Must mean the Isha Sota wasn't pregnant.

Oh my, such a mess to read. Sarcasm or not you implied that your God was immoral. But then the readiness to hand out the death penalty in the Old Testament, or whatever term you prefer does show that version of God to be rather immoral. Secular morality tends to beat religious morality. If you want to argue against abortion I you would have better luck with that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is a miscarriage. They would have caused her to miscarry.

And that is what a chemical abortion is. A high percentage of today's abortions are chemical abortions where a miscarriage is induced. Are those abortions okay in your eyes?

 

[Rival]

And that is what a chemical abortion is. A high percentage of today's abortions are chemical abortions where a miscarriage is induced. Are those abortions okay in your eyes?

The verse doesn't stipulate it was intentional.

 

[SomeRandom]

So what human beings are rightfully allowed to kill another human being? Outside of hospital that would be murder, and it is still murder within the hospital.
When I worked with sick people in a home for the elderly, we were clearly instructed that by no means was we allowed to end someone's life because they asked us to pull the cord or give them medicine that would stop their hearts.
You have something called terminal condition(time before they die a natural death) and we were only allowed to give pain killers so they should at least feel less pain. we were also instructed to stay with them as much as possible. I am not trained as a fully educated nurse or doctor, but I have enough medical education to be allowed to give medicine prescribed by doctors.
When a family member of the sick person asked me, can you not end the suffering for (mom or dad) but I was not in any position to be allowed to follow the family's order or request.
And the doctors also always say no to end someone's life because as they told the family. A doctor's job is to keep the person alive, but with as little pain as possible.
Medical trained persons should never end someones life

As the daughter of a patient like that, that isn’t medicine. That isn’t ethical. It was nothing more than selfish cruelty out on display. It would have been far more ethical to pull the plug and let the patient die surrounded by loved ones, with dignity and pride still intact. Refusing to let terminally ill people die is not medicine, that’s inability to face death like an adult. Of course, no patient, no money. Sickening to witness. I know plenty of doctors and nurses and they desperately wished to end the suffering of their patients more often than not.
It’s taxing on everyone, especially the patient. Let them go peacefully, instead of keeping them alive for our own selfishness and inability to accept death.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The verse doesn't stipulate it was intentional.

Oh come on now. Does everything have to be spelled out in the Bible? The context is rather clear. What amazes me is that no one objects to a woman being forced to have an abortion that sounds like it would be against her will.

 

[Rival]

Oh come on now. Does everything have to be spelled out in the Bible?

Yes.

Same verse in a Jewish translation:

And should men quarrel and hit a pregnant woman, and she miscarries but there is no fatality, he shall surely be punished, when the woman's husband makes demands of him, and he shall give restitution according to the judges' orders

Here is Rashi's commentary. Rashi was a Rabbi of top order,

And should men quarrel: with one another, and [one] intended to strike his fellow, and [instead] struck a woman. [From Sanh. 79a]

It was an accident.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Medical personnel is there to save and treat people,

Sometimes you cant save someone, and ending their suffering when they no longer wish to endure is the best way to treat their suffering. And telking them no, seeing a problem with it, its a very selfish thing as you hold no claim, stake, or ownership over that individual or their life.

 

[Harel13]

God was immoral

According to you. But whatever, you read what you want to read.

Secular morality tends to beat religious morality.

Man, I could drag this sentence onto a million other issues, but whatevs.

 

[Spirit of Light]

As the daughter of a patient like that, that isn’t medicine. That isn’t ethical. It was nothing more than selfish cruelty out on display. It would have been far more ethical to pull the plug and let the patient die surrounded by loved ones, with dignity and pride still intact. Refusing to let terminally ill people die is not medicine, that’s inability to face death like an adult. Of course, no patient, no money. Sickening to witness. I know plenty of doctors and nurses and they desperately wished to end the suffering of their patients more often than not.
It’s taxing on everyone, especially the patient. Let them go peacefully, instead of keeping them alive for our own selfishness and inability to accept death.

I was following the law in Norway, where active help to suicide is illegal, and when the Doctor says it would be illegal to help the person to die, I have no problem to follow the law and the message from the doctor. On the other hand, I personally have taken a vow to never kill a person in my life so even if I was told me the boss, I would not do it. You can call me selfish, but what it is his compassion for the one who I would kill to satisfy the family, to me that is more immoral and horrible of the family.
Old age and sickness are a part of life, and everyone will experience it in one way or another.
I know very well how it is to be on the greaving side too because I lost both my parents to cancer. To see my parents suffering was not easy or in any way good, but I also knew it would be very wrong and morally wrong to either pull the plug my self or ask others to do it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Ya know...for someone who is me arch enemy on the political
spectrum, you sound very libertarian (in a good way).

We need someone in the upper right corner so we can be RFs Four Horsemen.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Sometimes you cant save someone, and ending their suffering when they no longer wish to endure is the best way to treat their suffering. And telking them no, seeing a problem with it, its a very selfish thing as you hold no claim, stake, or ownership over that individual or their life.

That is exactly why I would not kill that person. It is not up to me when that person going to die. To kill someone, no matter what, is totally immoral to me. and the karma I would gain from killing them is not something I could take.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is exactly why I would not kill that person.

It's not your life or your decision of you are that persons doctor. You could make it yours, but doing so is to claim ownership over something that does not belong to you to claim.

 

[Rival]

Sometimes you cant save someone, and ending their suffering when they no longer wish to endure is the best way to treat their suffering. And telking them no, seeing a problem with it, its a very selfish thing as you hold no claim, stake, or ownership over that individual or their life.

I tend to agree but I still think we should allow people who don't to practice medicine. I don't think it's fair to say they can't do 90% of it just because they don't want to do 10%.

 

[SomeRandom]

I was following the law in Norway, where active help to suicide is illegal, and when the Doctor says it would be illegal to help the person to die, I have no problem to follow the law and the message from the doctor. On the other hand, I personally have taken a vow to never kill a person in my life so even if I was told me the boss, I would not do it. You can call me selfish, but what it is his compassion for the one who I would kill to satisfy the family, to me that is more immoral and horrible of the family.
Old age and sickness are a part of life, and everyone will experience it in one way or another.
I know very well how it is to be on the greaving side too because I lost both my parents to cancer. To see my parents suffering was not easy or in any way good, but I also knew it would be very wrong and morally wrong to either pull the plug my self or ask others to do it.

How is it compassionate to just stand by and witness suffering, knowing the entire time someone (not necessarily you if you objected) could have given merciful relief? Compassion? Compassion is doing what’s best for the patient, regardless of your own morality. To put them and their needs above your own and your own conscience even. That is true humility and compassion, imo. Merciful killing is good karma, it means you have relented your ego and surrendered yourself to a higher purpose, if that is your issue.
I grew up in a hospital, I have seen doctors “play God” as you would call it just as a day job. They save people on the very brink of death, they have made a slip up and killed people. That’s just how the cookie crumbles. Sometimes a battle is just over and you can either accept defeat graciously or throw a tantrum and prolong suffering.
Death is sometimes a better alternative and whilst I wouldn’t begrudge a medical professional for refusing to “pull the plug” I’ll be damned if I also wouldn’t find someone else fully willing to. Allowing unneeded suffering is not compassion, in my eyes. These patients aren’t supposed to emulate Jesus’ sacrifice. Let them go in peace rather than wishing for relief in their final moments.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I tend to agree but I still think we should allow people who don't to practice medicine. I don't think it's fair to say they can't do 90% of it just because they don't want to do 10%.

I think they should consider other fields in health care, and consider their reasons for getting into medicine. In the end, its a field that requires you to sacrifice yourself, put yourself at risk, and it requires you to put others first. That cant be done if you are putting yourself first. And of course it varies, such as doctors who perform abortions compared to a primary care doctor prescribing birth control. Its probably less likely to be an issue with abortion providors, but a primary care doctor who wont prescrube birth control is really making a mess for everyone involved, including the patient who must now go to another appointment with another provider.

 

[Rival]

I think they should consider other fields in health care, and consider their reasons for getting into medicine. In the end, its a field that requires you to sacrifice yourself, put yourself at risk, and it requires you to put others first. That cant be done if you are putting yourself first. And of course it varies, such as doctors who perform abortions compared to a primary care doctor prescribing birth control. Its probably less likely to be an issue with abortion providors, but a primary care doctor who wont prescrube birth control is really making a mess for everyone involved, including the patient who must now go to another appointment with another provider.

Even Orthodox Jews can use the pill, so those others must be something really hardcore.

Like, too hardcore.