1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Against abortion or assisted dying? No med school for you

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by 9-10ths_Penguin, Dec 1, 2019 at 7:56 AM.

  1. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    55,378
    Ratings:
    +13,935
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    A Canadian bioethicist is proposing that medical and pharmacist schools reject applicants who indicate that they would refuse to provide medical treatment, including abortion and assisted dying, on conscientious grounds:

    Medical schools should deny applicants who object to provide abortion, assisted death: bioethicist

    My personal opinion: I see quite a bit of merit in Dr. Schuklenk's suggestion.

    In some respects, it's a bit heavy-handed. After all, someone who objects to, say, abortion, contraception, and assisted dying could potentially steer themselves to a medical discipline that isn't involved with these services.

    On the other hand, though, I think it's useful to send a strong message to med - and pharmacy - students that the most important principle in medicine is that the needs of the patient come first, so anyone who would deny a patient care based on the practitioner's "needs" has no place in the medical profession.

    In an environment where there's heavy competition to get into medical schools, only the best students are going to get in. I think it makes sense for the measurement of "best" to include a look at the applicant's ethics, not just their academic performance.

    What are your thoughts?
     
    #1 9-10ths_Penguin, Dec 1, 2019 at 7:56 AM
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019 at 8:05 AM
    • Like Like x 9
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    12,264
    Ratings:
    +4,435
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    This makes sense to me.

    Ideally, these people would not seek such positions in a society in which they are not willing to FULFILL the terms and requirements of the positions they are seeking. But unfortunately, these people are too self-centered in their "righteousness" to consider the rights and well-being of their fellow humans, so they must be forcibly denied access to those positions.

    Incidentally, I feel the same way about religious zealots seeking political position in representational governments, because again, they are not willing to fulfill the requirements of the positions they seek. Instead, they will use those positions to actively negate the very system of government they pretend to participate in.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,562
    Ratings:
    +1,488
    Religion:
    Christian
    Abortion is medical treatment ?

    So, this proposal essentially codifies thought control. Believe as we say, or you will be denied the opportunity to pursue your chosen profession.

    I assume then that for Christian medical schools, the opposite would be acceptable. No admission if you believe abortion is acceptable, or you would choose to aid in killing someone.

    Of course the entire idea is ludicrous.

    This is simply another idea designed to strip people of certain religions from a profession.

    Why ? Because as physicians they do not want to participate in killing others.

    The Hippocratic oath says " first, cause no harm". Killing someone is harm, to me.

    There are plenty of physicians who love getting paid for killing, they are always available to do the job.

    As part of their training medical school students have classes in ethics. In these classes all sides of an ethical issue are discussed and explored.

    When they graduate, these students have every right to hold whatever ethical view they choose.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
  4. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,562
    Ratings:
    +1,488
    Religion:
    Christian
    Your last paragraph is nonsense. What defines a religious zealot ?

    How do they negate the very system they participate in ?

    I note from other posts, and this one, you are really committed to using force against those who don't think like you.

    That, and your political ideas seem to confirm that you are a stalinist mixed with some of Lenin and Trotsky.

    Wonderful.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Amanaki

    Amanaki Living in the moment

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    5,896
    Ratings:
    +3,302
    Medical personnel is there to save and treat people, Not to take life or help someone make suicide with assistance. The training/school is there to teach the nurse/Doctors how to save a life, not to take it away. (I have basic health worker education my self and been in a situation where I was asked to help end someone's life, my answer was No I can not do that)
     
    #5 Amanaki, Dec 1, 2019 at 9:33 AM
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019 at 9:58 AM
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. Stanyon

    Stanyon WWGTD?

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    4,892
    Ratings:
    +2,294
    Religion:
    Living
    I find it interesting that someone wants to make it a requirement instead of an option. I support pro choice and assisted suicide but to want to ban no doubt otherwise fully capable doctors on the basis of this seems pretty far reaching. If a doctor refuses to perform certain things because of personal ethics and you disagree one is free to seek out another doctor that will.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
  7. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    12,264
    Ratings:
    +4,435
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    I am referring to people who live to serve the tenets of their religion, such that they are unable to serve the needs and requirements of various positions in their society.
    The essential tenet of representational government is that the people engaged in carrying it out are acting on behalf of the society they have agreed to serve. Not on behalf of their God and/or religion. One cannot serve two masters when those masters disagree. And it is inevitable that one's society will disagree with one's religion/God sooner or later on something or other. And when that happens, the "zealots" will choose to act on behalf of their religion and their God, instead of their society, and in doing so they become 'traitors' to both their positions in government and to their fellow citizens.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. Harel13

    Harel13 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2019
    Messages:
    450
    Ratings:
    +307
    Religion:
    Orthodox Judaism
    And this person supposedly knows anything about ethics?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    12,264
    Ratings:
    +4,435
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    Why should society make an effort to tolerate people who are unwilling to tolerate that society in return?

    Why should we tolerate intolerance, when it erodes the very ideal we presume to support?
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Rival

    Rival Noahide
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    13,491
    Ratings:
    +15,141
    Religion:
    בת נח
    Ridiculous. These people may have turned out to be experts in other fields and they wouldn't have even been given a chance.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. BSM1

    BSM1 Who's a good boy?

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2012
    Messages:
    17,165
    Ratings:
    +7,917
    Religion:
    Buddhistic Panenthetic Jesusonian
    Try not to fall off your chair, but I agree with this. No matter what your religious beliefs, you can't use them to refuse to serve others at will if you accept a position that may require you to step out of your comfort zone.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  12. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    12,264
    Ratings:
    +4,435
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    Kinda like all those poor, working class, and even middle class kids who will never get the opportunity to find out what they could have become because they were born into an economic system totally controlled and hoarded by a small, wealthy, elite. Isn't it just a shame that equal freedom, justice, and opportunity for all is just a buzz-phraze used to keep a big fat lie afloat.

    Sorry, but I'm not crying any crocodile tears over the loss of the great social contributions that these intolerant religious zealots might have made had they been able to fully express their loathing for their fellow man as they'd wanted.
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
  13. Rival

    Rival Noahide
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    13,491
    Ratings:
    +15,141
    Religion:
    בת נח
    They may not even be religious, so I don't know what you're talking about here. There are plenty of non-religious folks who don't like abortion and euthanasia. If you want to start excluding people on the basis of their conscience, then you are paving a very slippery road based on what you think is right. People with conservative views are always going to exist and you don't just have the right to kick us out of your society.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  14. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    12,264
    Ratings:
    +4,435
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    No, I want them excluded because they have no intention of fulfilling the responsibilities of the positions they are seeking within their own society. I couldn't care less WHY they are selfish zealots.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  15. Rival

    Rival Noahide
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    13,491
    Ratings:
    +15,141
    Religion:
    בת נח
    No matter what, people are always going to have reservations about some or other medical treatment. The answer has always been have someone else do it. It's not a hard compromise.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
  16. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    12,264
    Ratings:
    +4,435
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    Well, that's just not true. Doctors swear an oath, and are expected by their society to uphold it. And they don't take that oath presuming that it's not going to apply to them whenever their conscience bristles.

    When an individual's conscience overrides their responsibility to their society, they need to consider their resultant behavior very carefully, because society has both the right and the ability to make one pay a heavy price for deliberately neglecting or denying one's social responsibilities. (Think about a soldier refusing to fight, as an example.)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  17. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    152,799
    Ratings:
    +43,758
    Religion:
    Bokononism
    It's a wonderful idea....very 1984ish.
    Naturally, I'm against it.

    Hmmm....we could extend the practice.
    Reject applicants....
    - Socialists & communists from business school
    - Libertarians & anarchists from government studies
    - Flat Earthers from astrophysics
    - Creationists from biology
     
    #17 Revoltingest, Dec 1, 2019 at 10:20 AM
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019 at 10:31 AM
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  18. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    55,378
    Ratings:
    +13,935
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    Yes.

    It's not about belief; it's about actions... or at least the promise of actions. If someone swears that they won't practice their profession responsibily or ethically, what's the point of even training them?

    There are no Christian medical schools in Canada.

    If a Christian university decided it wanted a medical school, it would still need to be accredited. If they wanted to require their students to be unethical the way you suggest, I can't imagine they'd have an easy time getting approved by the accreditation board.

    It's an idea to exclude people from a profession when:

    - they deliberately choose to render themselves effectively incompetent.
    - their patients suffer as a result of this choice.

    If a religion requires any doctors and pharmacists among its adherents to behave unethically, I suppose they would be excluded as a matter of course, but that's not the main goal. The main goal is safeguarding patient care.

    No, they really don't. This is why every sort of medical practitioner, including doctors, nurses, and pharmacists is bound by a code of ethics.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  19. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    152,799
    Ratings:
    +43,758
    Religion:
    Bokononism
    Ya know...for someone who is me arch enemy on the political
    spectrum, you sound very libertarian (in a good way).
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Rival

    Rival Noahide
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    13,491
    Ratings:
    +15,141
    Religion:
    בת נח
    The US one says this,

    I do hereby affirm my loyalty to the profession I am about to enter. I will be mindful always of my great responsibility to preserve the health and the life of my patients, to retain their confidence and respect both as a physician and a friend who will guard their secrets with scrupulous honor and fidelity, to perform faithfully my professional duties, to employ only those recognized methods of treatment consistent with good judgment and with my skill and ability, keeping in mind always nature's laws and the body's inherent capacity for recovery.

    It also says this,


    I will be ever vigilant in aiding in the general welfare of the community, sustaining its laws and institutions, not engaging in those practices which will in any way bring shame or discredit upon myself or my profession. I will give no drugs for deadly purposes to any person, though it be asked of me.

    In the U.K., where I live, it's not obligatory.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
Loading...