Proselytizing: What is it and is it a good or bad thing?

[Vinayaka]

It's all about sharing views because we can all have something to learn from each other.

This is a perfect example of what I said. I won't 'share', unless asked, even pestered. Members of proselytizing faiths 'share' as much as they can, whenever they can. I believe the word 'share' is synonymous with 'proselytize'. Not there to argue, but that's the POV I have. Just as river flows in one direction, information flows in one direction when the two people are on opposing views like this. One side simply does not know how to listen, too intent on saying the next thing.

As for Bahai here, I've had many lengthy discussions, and my expectations have declined dramatically. But you will be able to get a way with a lot on these forums. Carry on.

If you truly believe in 'sharing' going both ways, you'll go to some DIRs and ask respectful questions of other faiths.

 

[Thief]

Proselytizing can mean different things to different people. Some people may feel a duty to proselytize as part of their faith. Others may use the word in a pejorative way to criticise others who 'teach' their faith to others while insisting on being above whatever they perceive the word to mean.

So what is proselytising? To me it means trying to convert people from one religion or worldview to another. Personally I wouldn't try to convert anyone to my religion, but if someone had questions about my faith or were interested to learn I would certainly help them. If someone wanted to join my religion, if I believed they were sincere and understood what my faith was about, I would certainly assist them in their journey to become part of the worldwide community of my faith. So none of this I would consider proselytizing. I would avoid any manipulation, coercion or deception which certainly runs contrary to the truthfulness and trsutworthiness that is at the foundation of any genuine religion.

Proselytizing on religious forum is against the rules btw. Some of you may be aware of rule 8:

8. Preaching/Proselytizing
Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching.

RF Rules

I've certainly experienced a great deal of proselytizing during my time on RF and have been accused of it myself.

So what is proselytizing to you and is it a good or bad thing.

If I toss your belief in your face with a convincing line of critique
you're screwed

what choice then do you have?

was I proselytizing?

nope

your belief simply had a weak spot and could not hold ground

ooooops

 

[Windwalker]

This is a perfect example of what I said. I won't 'share', unless asked, even pestered. Members of proselytizing faiths 'share' as much as they can, whenever they can. I believe the word 'share' is synonymous with 'proselytize'. Not there to argue, but that's the POV I have. Just as river flows in one direction, information flows in one direction when the two people are on opposing views like this. One side simply does not know how to listen, too intent on saying the next thing.

To be fair, "sharing" is one of those things which is a natural thing people like to do when they have found something meaningful for themselves they are excited about. I certainly would love to share what I've been discovering for myself through qigong practice and the tajii form, for instance. Or, finding a great camera I'm excited about. "It's the best!", beams the enthusiasm of a the inner child. I think that's a natural and healthy thing.

However.... the problem is when that is exploited by a religious system to get its members to "get excited about Jesus," or whom or whatever, and "share" it with others because they a promised the rewards of recognition for bringing people into the fold. Now sharing is no longer about natural excitement alone, but it becomes attached to a mission statement, a duty, a responsibility, etc.

It becomes infected with some ulterior motive assigned to it, and it makes it about personal reward, being seen as a "good warrior of the faith", a notch in their bible belt for saving a lost soul, and all that. It's like selling an expensive vacuum cleaner to them, and you get recognition for it. In other words it taints and pollutes genuine, natural love, with selfish motivation. It isn't about genuine sharing anymore, it has personal ego needs attached to it.

Like you, I find this distasteful. Not only for the person this "love" is being shared with, as it views them as an object to exploit, but for the naive spiritual aspirant who does have a genuine enthusiasm, but is told they need to use that to win souls to their religion. It diminishes their own spiritual truth they are finding for themselves. It taints it. It's a like a leech attached to your face as you try to smile to the person you're talking with. People can sense something is off, and so can they about themselves as they try to "share" as some sort of religious obligation.

As for Bahai here, I've had many lengthy discussions, and my expectations have declined dramatically. But you will be able to get a way with a lot on these forums. Carry on.

It's my hope for anyone caught in this religious obligation to "share the faith", that they will realize how that is not truly spiritual rewarding, but that just sincere and authentic love without strings attached, without a compulsion to attach religious teacher's quotations to it to promote a system of belief, is the actual point of any spiritual path. To be genuine. To be that innocent child who is excited about this wonderful new thing they have found that brings them happiness. It should be about their happiness, not the thing they found their own happiness through at that time.

 

[Vinayaka]

To be fair, "sharing" is one of those things which is a natural thing people like to do when they have found something meaningful for themselves they are excited about.

Totally concur, and with a captive audience it's great fun. We have a close friend whom we share our adventures with. When we (or she) goes on a pilgrimage, we (both sides) want to know what happened, what adventures were had, what they learned, and all that. Same thing at family get-togethers ... legitimate "What happened in your life since I saw you?" stuff. It shows a keen interest in the other person. (Of course there are exceptions even at those gatherings the person who fits ... "With ______ it's always about ________." Proselytising shows no actual interest in the other person at all.

Thank you for wording your post really well ... much better than I could have.

 

[od19g6]

To be fair, "sharing" is one of those things which is a natural thing people like to do when they have found something meaningful for themselves they are excited about. I certainly would love to share what I've been discovering for myself through qigong practice and the tajii form, for instance. Or, finding a great camera I'm excited about. "It's the best!", beams the enthusiasm of a the inner child. I think that's a natural and healthy thing.

However.... the problem is when that is exploited by a religious system to get its members to "get excited about Jesus," or whom or whatever, and "share" it with others because they a promised the rewards of recognition for bringing people into the fold. Now sharing is no longer about natural excitement alone, but it becomes attached to a mission statement, a duty, a responsibility, etc.

It becomes infected with some ulterior motive assigned to it, and it makes it about personal reward, being seen as a "good warrior of the faith", a notch in their bible belt for saving a lost soul, and all that. It's like selling an expensive vacuum cleaner to them, and you get recognition for it. In other words it taints and pollutes genuine, natural love, with selfish motivation. It isn't about genuine sharing anymore, it has personal ego needs attached to it.

Like you, I find this distasteful. Not only for the person this "love" is being shared with, as it views them as an object to exploit, but for the naive spiritual aspirant who does have a genuine enthusiasm, but is told they need to use that to win souls to their religion. It diminishes their own spiritual truth they are finding for themselves. It taints it. It's a like a leech attached to your face as you try to smile to the person you're talking with. People can sense something is off, and so can they about themselves as they try to "share" as some sort of religious obligation.


It's my hope for anyone caught in this religious obligation to "share the faith", that they will realize how that is not truly spiritual rewarding, but that just sincere and authentic love without strings attached, without a compulsion to attach religious teacher's quotations to it to promote a system of belief, is the actual point of any spiritual path. To be genuine. To be that innocent child who is excited about this wonderful new thing they have found that brings them happiness. It should be about their happiness, not the thing they found their own happiness through at that time.

I agree.

Everything should be done and said with good and well meaning intention,

and not with ego and selfishness.

 

[od19g6]

Totally concur, and with a captive audience it's great fun. We have a close friend whom we share our adventures with. When we (or she) goes on a pilgrimage, we (both sides) want to know what happened, what adventures were had, what they learned, and all that. Same thing at family get-togethers ... legitimate "What happened in your life since I saw you?" stuff. It shows a keen interest in the other person. (Of course there are exceptions even at those gatherings the person who fits ... "With ______ it's always about ________." Proselytising shows no actual interest in the other person at all.

Thank you for wording your post really well ... much better than I could have.

'Proselytising shows no actual interest in the other person at all'.

Yes, I agree and that's the point I'm trying to make.

If I want you to hear what I have to say but I don't want to hear what you have to say, then the conversation is in vain and we're not going to get anywhere

 

[Vinayaka]

'Proselytising shows no actual interest in the other person at all'.

Yes, I agree and that's the point I'm trying to make.

If I want you to hear what I have to say but I don't want to hear what you have to say, then the conversation is in vain and we're not going to get anywhere

Indeed, that has been my experience with members of proselytising faiths. Individuals do vary.

You're 36 M. That makes you one of two younger members of your faith on these forums. There has only been one female Baha'i come here, as far as I can remember. But geographically it's diverse. US, (South Carolina, Oregon) Australia, (Queensland, Perth) New Zealand, are all represented. As far as I know, although there may be one exception, all are converts, not born into the faith. I've yet to meet an Iranian Baha'i. Course I could have it all wrong. As for the variation in faith we have some dogmatic conservative fundamentalist types all the way to rather liberal types. Time will tell for how you fit in along that spectrum.

Enjoy your time here.

 

[od19g6]

Indeed, that has been my experience with members of proselytising faiths. Individuals do vary.

You're 36 M. That makes you one of two younger members of your faith on these forums. There has only been one female Baha'i come here, as far as I can remember. But geographically it's diverse. US, (South Carolina, Oregon) Australia, (Queensland, Perth) New Zealand, are all represented. As far as I know, although there may be one exception, all are converts, not born into the faith. I've yet to meet an Iranian Baha'i. Course I could have it all wrong. As for the variation in faith we have some dogmatic conservative fundamentalist types all the way to rather liberal types. Time will tell for how you fit in along that spectrum.

Enjoy your time here.

Thanks.

Check out my introduction post.

 

[stvdv]

I agree that if someone is going to take the time to share their faith with another, they need to be open and reciprocate being prepared to listen as well. Communication is always a two way street.

Yet I can't say I've ever met a proselytizer who was ready to abandon faith in their god and join me in atheism.

IMO: I can only see 1 way to "share" and communicate as in a "two way street". Both should not believe (or even have the thought like "my religion is the only one, or the best one, or the better one, etc.etc". I believe that all humans have it in them, to gain "whatever they want". No need for a specific (non) religion. Religion can be of help to gain insights, and Science can be as help to gain insides. But in the end both need to use their brains, intellect etc.etc to accomplish whatever they want to do.

For example if there are 2 almost identical people, of which 1 is a Theist and the other is an Atheist. And both do the same virtuous acts, speak the same virtuous words, and both are happy and make others happy, and both have peaceful thoughts

Then I do not see that the Atheist is better than the Theist or the other way around.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yeah, no doubt! Lol!

And he said, “Go....make disciples.” (Matthew 28:19-20)
(Y’all would’ve canceled his membership. Just kiddin’. Only after 4 warnings.)

But for Christians, that’s what we are supposed to do.

The difficulties lie in what we have agreed to here in being a member of RF. We have agreed not to preach and proselytise. We have said we won't be seeking converts and making disciples on RF, have we not? Are you suggesting we should disregard the rules?

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanks.

Check out my introduction post.

Oh I did. I check out all introductory posts. I think most of us 'regulars' do.

 

[stvdv]

This may be a tricky thing because it is not my intention to try to force someone into conversion

IMHO: It's not really tricky. It all comes down to our mindset. Because minds become words, and words become deeds.

I can easily see the "tricky parts here":
"It's not my intention" I could interpret this as "BUT I would not mind". Then on the "thought level you already might (need not be) evangelize"
it is not my intention to try to force someone into conversion can be read as "BUT without force it's okay"

If someone wants to convert to "my way" I will tell them "your path is also a highway, why change to my way?". That is the only mindset that works for me to be totally free from "evangelizing" habits (in thought, word and deed).

 

[stvdv]

only God can convert someone

This is another "trick-construction" I heard people hide behind, when they were in fact evangelizing on RF (where this is not permitted). I rather don't beat around the bush with this, and make it abundantly clear: I would reply with "I don't want or need you to convert, your religion is as good as mine or any other (non) religion"

We only need to examine our thoughts and our "deep down beliefs". IF someone believes (thinks) "my way is the only way for all", then mentally (thoughtwise) he is already evangelizing, and it will just take a little time, before he can't contain himself anymore and blurts it out also.

 

[Vinayaka]

This is another "trick-construction" I heard people hide behind, when they were in fact evangelizing on RF (where this is not permitted). I rather don't beat around the bush with this, and make it abundantly clear: I would reply with "I don't want or need you to convert, your religion is as good as mine or any other (non) religion"

We only need to examine our thoughts and our "deep down beliefs". IF someone believes (thinks) "my way is the only way for all", then mentally (thoughtwise) he is already evangelizing, and it will just take a little time, before he can't contain himself anymore and blurts it out also.

As you know, most Hindus actually believe that God created (emanated) many belief systems (including all, most especially atheists) so that everybody has a place to go, given the ridiculous diversity on this planet. We're just one of many. So it's far easier for us, as it's what we actually believe, and we don't have to hide behind words and/or fake niceness, and then behave contrary to that.

Thank you for getting to the point. With luck it might even be helpful.

Edited to add... not just 'my way is the only way' but also 'my way is the better way'.

 

[stvdv]

As you know, most Hindus actually believe that God created (emanated) many belief systems (including all, most especially atheists) so that everybody has a place to go, given the ridiculous diversity on this planet. We're just one of many. So it's far easier for us, as it's what we actually believe, and we don't have to hide behind words and/or fake niceness, and then behave contrary to that.

Thank you for getting to the point. With luck it might even be helpful.

Edited to add... not just 'my way is the only way' but also 'my way is the better way'.

Yes, "my way is the better way" is also used a lot by evangelists. The Christian priests I heard, all claim "there is no way, but through Jesus". So they do not even consider the other way to be a way. Or to be more precise, they do consider "the other way" to be a way, as they call it "the highway to Hell".

The line "My way is the better way" can be taken positive. That you will reach your goal, but have to work hard, like in Buddhism, whereas with Jesus, He has done all the work; you just have to surrender to Jesus and believe this. Or maybe better say "My way is the easier way".

Of course the line "my way is the better way" is quite arrogant and belittling. Most Christians do not even recognize this fact.

To make a claim "my way is the better way", or even "my way is the best way", is not even smart. Because you must have seen all the other ways, and investigated them all, to come to this bold conclusion. Or you must just "blind believe" in "my way is the best way". The first one is almost impossible, having ca. 8 billion people (unless you are omniscient). And "blind believe" is okay for me, if people want to follow that, but then it is still a "belief", so they should not put it out, as a "claim".

After 2000 years Christianity and Islam, I do think we need "heaps of luck" though

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The difficulties lie in what we have agreed to here in being a member of RF. We have agreed not to preach and proselytise. We have said we won't be seeking converts and making disciples on RF, have we not? Are you suggesting we should disregard the rules?

No, no. Just like you stated: if someone becomes a member, they have agreed to abide by the rules.

My point was that some Christians are used to proselytizing (JW’s, for sure) because it’s a command of Jesus that they’re used to. It might be hard to refrain from it.... but they should refrain from it on here, since it’s part of the rules.

Is this clear as mud?

 

[Dawnofhope]

No, no. Just like you stated: if someone becomes a member, they have agreed to abide by the rules.

My point was that some Christians are used to proselytizing (JW’s, for sure) because it’s a command of Jesus that they’re used to. It might be hard to refrain from it.... but they should refrain from it on here, since it’s part of the rules.

Is this clear as mud?

I think your position is clear. You believe you should seek converts and proselytise. You agree to the rules here so you refrain. I have no problem with that.

Baha’is will teach our faith to those who are interested and if there’s no interest that’s fine. If someone wants to join our faith as they share our beliefs we assist them on that journey. However we associate with peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship. It doesn’t matter if someone isn’t interested in our faith or not. We avoid pressure, coercion or manipulation. We like to discuss matters of a spiritual matter.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I did want to state that prosetylizing and seeking people to convert, from the religious side, has in life, almost completely put me off to such beliefs. It just seems rather automated when the questions I must ask myself when listening to the pitch are, "Are said beliefs science friendly and LGBTQ+ friendly? Are they providing just an alternative, or a full, coherent worldview? How would accepting such an alternative or worldview change my understanding of the world for the better? Will they preach the message and leave, or talk to me for months on end discussing in detail all questions I have?"

 

[Dawnofhope]

I did want to state that prosetylizing and seeking people to convert, from the religious side, has in life, almost completely put me off to such beliefs. It just seems rather automated when the questions I must ask myself when listening to the pitch are, "Are said beliefs science friendly and LGBTQ+ friendly? Are they providing just an alternative, or a full, coherent worldview? How would accepting such an alternative or worldview change my understanding of the world for the better? Will they preach the message and leave, or talk to me for months on end discussing in detail all questions I have?"

I think we’re all on a journey and whatever stage we’re at we just want to be treated like people and respected whatever our faith or lack there of. Whatever we’re going through we just want to be heard and understood. If religion helps then well and good. If not then that’s fine too.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think we’re all on a journey and whatever stage we’re at we just want to be treated like people and respected whatever our faith or lack there of. Whatever we’re going through we just want to be heard and understood. If religion helps then well and good. If not then that’s fine too.

I think it's unreasonable to expect people to understand you. Everyone has their own set of experiences from which they derived their understanding of the world. I don't understand why you are a Baha'i for example, and I'm fine with not understanding. You may claim that you understand me, but I would maintain you don't, as experience is such a diverse teacher.

However, I do think it's important we respect each other, at the core, as divinity at the core is a belief I have. As for the external ego, the personality, not so much. Hard to respect a rapist, or for me, a proselytiser.