To Hebrew experts: did Eve sleep with the Serpent?

[Wandering Monk]

Whew!!! You don't know how relieved I am that you think my post was informative. And I mean that sincerely.
As for the point of Estro's thread, ... I'm going to go way on a limb here and "read her mind". Let's see if she rejects my understanding.
( @Estro Felino )

• First, I assumed--whether correctly or incorrectly really doesn't matter--that Estro is familiar with the original, "official" Genesis account of the serpent's temptation of Eve and the consequences of Eve and Adam's eating the forbidden fruit, (Genesis 3:1-24).
  
• It so happens that I know the "official" story, having been told it and having read it more times than I can remember--in childhood and adulthood--because of my thoroughly-Protestant upbringing.
• So, Estro--for a lark or for self-education--discovers the apocryphal Proto-Gospel of James [also called "The Infancy Gospel of James" https://www.asu.edu/courses/rel376/total-readings/james.pdf ], wherein she reads Chapter 13.
• In that Chapter, Joseph, the husband of Mary who was the mother of Jesus of Nazareth,
  • discovers that Mary is pregnant,
    
  • knows that she was alleged to be a pure virgin when he married her,
    
  • knows that he and she have never had sex,
  • becomes very upset, understandably,
  • and grills Mary over her pregnancy,
  • but not before wondering aloud whether the serpent who defiled Eve while Adam was off glorifying God had done the same to Mary, Joseph's wife.

"CHAPTER 13(1) In the sixth month of her pregnancy, Joseph came from his house-building and went into the house to find her swelling. (2) And he struck his face and threw himself on the ground in sackcloth and wept bitterly, "How can I look to the Lord God? What will I pray about her, for I took her as a virgin from the temple of the Lord and did not guard her? (4) Who has set this trap for me? Who did this evil in my house? Who stole the virgin from me and defiled her. (5) Has not the story of Adam been repeated with me? For while Adam was glorifying God, the serpent came and found Eve alone and deceived her and defiled her - so it has also happened to me."

• Those of us who know "the Gospel of Matthew" and "the Gospel of Luke" versions of Jesus' conception know that no serpent was involved in Mary's pregnancy in either version. Matthew's gospel says:
  • "18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
  • "19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.
    
  • "20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
  • "21 She will bear a son; and you shall call His name Jesus,"
• So, finding out that there's a version of Jesus' birth in which a distraught Joseph wonders if what happened to Eve also happened to his heretofore-thought-to-be-virgin wife, Mary, those of us who know, or thought we knew,
  • (a) the Genesis version of the Eve/serpent/Adam story and
    
  • (b) the Matthew and/or Luke version of Jesus' conception
    
  • scratch our heads, wondering where the apocryphal Gospel of James got his version of the Eve/Serpent/Adam story and his version of the Virgin Mary/Serpent/Joseph story.
• I conjecture that Estro knew enough about:
  • the apocryphal Gospel of James story to know that it probably first showed up in Greek and
  • the Eve/Serpent/Adam story of Genesis first appeared in Hebrew;
    
  • and she wondered if there was something in the Hebrew word for "serpent" that would lend itself to being or representing something that might have been imagined to have defiled Eve in the Hebrew version of the story.
  • Ergo, her third question: "What does the word serpent actually mean in Hebrew?"
• Estro's first question: What does Joseph mean?
  • Joseph means:
    • Mary was a virgin when we married;
    • Mary isn't a virgin anymore;
    • I didn't make her pregnant;
      
    • So who did?
    • His first thought was: Has what happened to Adam happened to me? to wit: a serpent deceived and defiled Eve; has that same serpent or another deceived and defiled Mary, my wife?
• Estro's second question: Does he mean the serpent was a man and slept with Eve, impregnating her?
  • My answer: No, What Joseph meant was exactly what the author of the Proto-Gospel of James wrote: Did what happened to Adam happen here; i.e. Did the serpent that deceived and defiled Eve, or a serpent like that first serpent, now deceive and defile my wife, Mary?
    
  • What was the first serpent like? I look to what the Talmud tells me: In B. Yevamot 103B: "...the serpent seduced Eve into having sexual relations with him", as a consequence of which, “And the Lord God said unto the serpent: Because you have done this, you are cursed from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life” (Genesis 3:14).
  • In other words, because of what the serpent did to Eve, God cursed it. Prior to the curse, it walked on two or more legs, after the curse, it was condemned to crawl on its belly. Prior to the curse, it ate the same food eaten by Adam and Eve; after the curse, it was condemned to eat dust. Prior to the curse, it said "I will kill Adam and marry Eve; after the curse, God there is enmity between it and Eve, and between its seed and her seed.
  • The snake, whatever it was before God's curse, was NOT a man, like Adam.a
• On my own initiative, I pursue the matter in the following manner.
  • I say that the probability the authors of the Talmud and the persons identified in the Talmud incorporated Christian stories--whether actual or apocryphal--into their discussions has 0.00% likelihood. It is far more likely that Jewish Christians incorporated traditional Jewish stories into Christian writings.
  • Potential Problem with that proposal: The Proto-Gospel of James is currently estimated to have been written around 145 CE. I do not know the date of any of the Talmud portions, but imagine them to have been written sometime after the Proto-Gospel.
  • Consequently, I speculate (hopefully, reasonably so) that the tale of the serpent's seduction and defilement of Eve existed and circulated orally in Aramaic or Hebrew within some portion of Israel prior to the writing (in Greek) of the Proto-Gospel of James, and was later incorporated into some portion of the Jewish Christian community and attributed to a Fictitious author named James, because that was a name with carried some weight of reputation and authority with it.

Although the Babylonian Talmud was compiled around 500 CE, it quotes sages who lived from much earlier times. The Talmud is essentially commentary on the Mishnah which was complied around 225 CE. The Mishnah contains the words of sages going back to Ezra.

Now, the question is, who was the Rabbi Yochanan who is supposed to have said the the serpent impregnated Eve? If it was Yochana ben Zacchai, he lived near the time of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE. So if HE is the guy quoted, the story about the serpent impregnating Eve would be contemporary with early Jewish believers in Jesus.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Now, the question is, who was the Rabbi Yochanan who is supposed to have said the the serpent impregnated Eve? If it was Yochana ben Zacchai, he lived near the time of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE. So if HE is the guy quoted, the story about the serpent impregnating Eve would be contemporary with early Jewish believers in Jesus.

Right. Now which do you think is more likely, regardless which Yochanan spoke the words that made their way into the Mishnah and Talmud?
(a) That a Jewish rabbi would incorporate a Christian interpretation of Genesis 3 into his discussion?
(b) Or that a Christianized Jew would incorporate a Jewish interpretation of Genesis 3, involving a serpent that copulated with Eve, into his Infancy Gospel of James?

 

[Wandering Monk]

Right. Now which do you think is more likely, regardless which Yochanan spoke the words that made their way into the Mishnah and Talmud?
(a) That a Jewish rabbi would incorporate a Christian interpretation of Genesis 3 into his discussion?
(b) Or that a Christianized Jew would incorporate a Jewish interpretation of Genesis 3, involving a serpent that copulated with Eve?

b.

although having spent 25 years exploring ancient Jewish writings and having grown up Christian fundamentalist, it seems to me that early Jewish believers and mainstream Jewish teachers influenced each other. Sometimes there are subtle hints that some of the mainstream Jewish teachers were either secret believers in Jesus or had adopted some Jewish Christian notions.

 

[Terry Sampson]

b

That's comforting. Me too.

it seems to me that early Jewish believers and mainstream Jewish teachers influenced each other. Sometimes there are subtle hints that some of the mainstream Jewish teachers were either secret believers in Jesus or had adopted some Jewish Christian notions.

You're far better read in Jewish sources than I, so I defer to your interesting assessment. But for the record, you're the one who said that, not me.

 

[susanblange]

You speak for God now, Susan?

I am God's servant and his messenger. It is my mission and purpose to establish the Kingdom of Heaven on the earth. It will be characterized by righteousness, justice and peace, and it will last forever. I am Judge, Lawgiver, and King. Isaiah 33:22. I have come to judge humankind and I will cut off the wicked/guilty. I will also establish a new covenant with all of humanity. The Jews will anoint me as King of the Universe and I will live in the rebuilt holy Temple in Jerusalem.

 

[Wandering Monk]

I am God's servant and his messenger. It is my mission and purpose to establish the Kingdom of Heaven on the earth. It will be characterized by righteousness, justice and peace, and it will last forever. I am Judge, Lawgiver, and King. Isaiah 33:22. I have come to judge humankind and I will cut off the wicked/guilty. I will also establish a new covenant with all of humanity. The Jews will anoint me as King of the Universe and I will live in the rebuilt holy Temple in Jerusalem.

 

[rosends]

The Hebrew word for serpent is "nachash" and it also means "man".

I have been puzzling over this. While the word Nachash appears as a name for particular men, I don't know of a verse in which the word means man. The word means serpent. The three letters with slightly different vowels refer to augury. The word is related to the word for copper (though my translation has n'chash in the book of Daniel translated as bronze). Where does it mean man?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

• • Potential Problem with that proposal: The Proto-Gospel of James is currently estimated to have been written around 145 CE. I do not know the date of any of the Talmud portions, but imagine them to have been written sometime after the Proto-Gospel.
  • Consequently, I speculate (hopefully, reasonably so) that the tale of the serpent's seduction and defilement of Eve existed and circulated orally in Aramaic or Hebrew within some portion of Israel prior to the writing (in Greek) of the Proto-Gospel of James, and was later incorporated into some portion of the Jewish Christian community and attributed to a Fictitious author named James, because that was a name with carried some weight of reputation and authority with it.

The Talmud Bavli is typically dated to circa 500 CE. If we accept this, along with he proffered 145 CE date, it's hard to justify your use of the term 'consequently.' In other words, there seems to be no there in your therefore ...

 

[Terry Sampson]

The Talmud Bavli is typically dated to circa 500 CE. If we accept this, along with he proffered 145 CE date, it's hard to justify your use of the term 'consequently.' In other words, there seems to be no there in your therefore ...

Well and good. Then in that case, so it would seem to me,
(a) Either the apocryphal Eve & serpent incident was invented by a Christian and by some odd happenstance happened to be incorporated into the Talmud,
(b) Or an alleged Christian came up with the porn version around 145 and the compiler(s) of the Talmud also came up with their nearly identical version some 450 years later; and the appearance of both porn versions of Genesis 3 is sheer coincidence.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well and good. Then in that case, so it would seem to me,
(a) Either the apocryphal Eve & serpent incident was invented by a Christian and by some odd happenstance happened to be incorporated into the Talmud,
(b) Or an alleged Christian came up with the porn version around 145 and the compiler(s) of the Talmud also came up with their nearly identical version some 450 years later; and the appearance of both porn versions of Genesis 3 is sheer coincidence.

That is not at all a reasonable inference. Rather, if one accepts that the Greek was penned a few centuries before the Aramaic, it should seem to you that:

• the Talmud version was influenced by the Greek, or
• both Talmud and Greek versions owe there parentage to some earlier (perhaps gnostic) midrash circulating in the diaspora, or
• coincidence.

None of the above is served by references to "some odd happenstance" and "porn," which strike me as unhelpful and a little childish.

 

[susanblange]

I have been puzzling over this. While the word Nachash appears as a name for particular men, I don't know of a verse in which the word means man. The word means serpent. The three letters with slightly different vowels refer to augury. The word is related to the word for copper (though my translation has n'chash in the book of Daniel translated as bronze). Where does it mean man?

Shalom rosends, I remember you from another forum. The serpent/Satan makes his first appearance in Genesis 3. He is called "serpent" mainly because he's a sex offender. The name Adam comes from the Hebrew "adamah" which means "out of the ground". The serpent is a part of his anatomy and he's also called "leviathan" which means "huge serpent". Isaiah 27:1. Adam/Satan/Chris was in the Guinness Book of World Records in the early eighties for the biggest "serpent" in the world. The photograph was anonymous and only from the waist down, but it looked just like him. The serpent was "subtil" meaning it was clever and had an intellect. There was no talking snake or magical fruit. About 25-30 years ago I learned that nachash, or serpent also means man, I don't remember where, but it stuck with me because it fits my theology.

I have been puzzling over this. While the word Nachash appears as a name for particular men, I don't know of a verse in which the word means man. The word means serpent. The three letters with slightly different vowels refer to augury. The word is related to the word for copper (though my translation has n'chash in the book of Daniel translated as bronze). Where does it mean man?

 

[rosends]

Shalom rosends, I remember you from another forum. The serpent/Satan makes his first appearance in Genesis 3. He is called "serpent" mainly because he's a sex offender. The name Adam comes from the Hebrew "adamah" which means "out of the ground". The serpent is a part of his anatomy and he's also called "leviathan" which means "huge serpent". Isaiah 27:1. Adam/Satan/Chris was in the Guinness Book of World Records in the early eighties for the biggest "serpent" in the world. The photograph was anonymous and only from the waist down, but it looked just like him. The serpent was "subtil" meaning it was clever and had an intellect. There was no talking snake or magical fruit. About 25-30 years ago I learned that nachash, or serpent also means man, I don't remember where, but it stuck with me because it fits my theology.

Adam comes from adamah which just means "ground", not "out of the ground" and in Isaiah 27:1, the text uses the word nachash twice, each time modified by an adjective (b'ri'ach, fleeing or elusive and akalaton, twisting), and each time, explaining an attribute of the Livyatan. Nothing to do with anatomy and nothing to do with "man."

 

[sooda]

I have been puzzling over this. While the word Nachash appears as a name for particular men, I don't know of a verse in which the word means man. The word means serpent. The three letters with slightly different vowels refer to augury. The word is related to the word for copper (though my translation has n'chash in the book of Daniel translated as bronze). Where does it mean man?

Daniel dates to 167 BC the junk about the snake is back in the mists of paganism.

 

[Wandering Monk]

The Talmud Bavli is typically dated to circa 500 CE. If we accept this, along with he proffered 145 CE date, it's hard to justify your use of the term 'consequently.' In other words, there seems to be no there in your therefore ...

The Talmud quotes sages from much earlier periods. It also contains passages from the Mishnah which was compiled about 225 or so CE. The Misnhah quotes sages purportedly going back to Ezra.

 

[sooda]

Adam comes from adamah which just means "ground", not "out of the ground" and in Isaiah 27:1, the text uses the word nachash twice, each time modified by an adjective (b'ri'ach, fleeing or elusive and akalaton, twisting), and each time, explaining an attribute of the Livyatan. Nothing to do with anatomy and nothing to do with "man."

1. (PDF) The Cult of the Bronze Serpents in Ancient Canaan ...
   The Cult of the Bronze Serpents in Ancient Canaan and IsraelCult_of_the...
   One such religious phenomenon is the cult of metal serpents. This cult is firmly attested in archaeological data, but its interpretation is still unclear. Before we consider the meaning of the cult, we should present some basic examples of the finds. The oldest bronze serpent was excavated at Megiddo (Tell el-Mutesellim). It was 18 cm long.
   
   
2. Israel’s Serpent/Moon God Yahweh (YHWH), the Jewish Snake ...
   arabianprophets.com/?page_id=106
   Israel’s Serpent/Moon God Yahweh (YHWH), the Jewish Snake God. The menorah can be found in the Old Negev inscriptions. Beth Shan: There are numerous Bronze and Iron Age sites which indicate a widespread serpent cult. Beth Shan is the best example where one can find the artifacts associated with these serpent cults.
   

 

[Terry Sampson]

That is not at all a reasonable inference. Rather, if one accepts that the Greek was penned a few centuries before the Aramaic, it should seem to you that:

1. the Talmud version was influenced by the Greek, or
2. both Talmud and Greek versions owe there parentage to some earlier (perhaps gnostic) midrash circulating in the diaspora, or
3. coincidence.

For the record,

1. In your post #73, you wrote: "...I still don't understand the point of the thread."
2. I tried to facilitate your understanding by writing my post #79, which concluded with my off-thread speculation over the origin of the apocryphal story of the defilement of Eve by the serpent and who might have influenced whom, to wit: "On my own initiative, I pursue the matter in the following manner.
   • I say that the probability the authors of the Talmud and the persons identified in the Talmud incorporated Christian stories--whether actual or apocryphal--into their discussions has 0.00% likelihood. It is far more likely that Jewish Christians incorporated traditional Jewish stories into Christian writings.
   • Potential Problem with that proposal: The Proto-Gospel of James is currently estimated to have been written around 145 CE. I do not know the date of any of the Talmud portions, but imagine them to have been written sometime after the Proto-Gospel.
   • Consequently, I speculate (hopefully, reasonably so) that the tale of the serpent's seduction and defilement of Eve existed and circulated orally in Aramaic or Hebrew within some portion of Israel prior to the writing (in Greek) of the Proto-Gospel of James, and was later incorporated into some portion of the Jewish Christian community and attributed to a Fictitious author named James, because that was a name with carried some weight of reputation and authority with it."
3. Wandering Monk, in his post #81, wrote: "Now, the question is, who was the Rabbi Yochanan who is supposed to have said the the serpent impregnated Eve? If it was Yochana ben Zacchai, he lived near the time of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE. So if HE is the guy quoted, the story about the serpent impregnating Eve would be contemporary with early Jewish believers in Jesus."
4. To which I responded with my post #82: "Right. Now which do you think is more likely, regardless which Yochanan spoke the words that made their way into the Mishnah and Talmud?
   • (a) That a Jewish rabbi would incorporate a Christian interpretation of Genesis 3 into his discussion?
   • (b) Or that a Christianized Jew would incorporate a Jewish interpretation of Genesis 3, involving a serpent that copulated with Eve, into his Infancy Gospel of James?"
5. Wandering Monk, in his post #83, responded:
   • b. and
   • "although having spent 25 years exploring ancient Jewish writings ..., it seems to me that early Jewish believers and mainstream Jewish teachers influenced each other. Sometimes there are subtle hints that some of the mainstream Jewish teachers were either secret believers in Jesus or had adopted some Jewish Christian notions."
6. In my post #84, I agreed with Wandering Monk, to wit: given a choice between the Christian apocryphal version of Gen. 3 influencing the writers of the Talmud or an oral version of the Talmudic story influencing the Christian apocryphal version, we both would choose the latter. [It would have to be an "oral version" because we both had reason to believe that the written Christian version preceded the written Talmud.]
7. With your post #88, you re-entered the thread and--without a comment on my effort to facilitate your understanding of the point of this thread--you questioned/challenged my speculative conclusion in my post #79, in blue print and underlined above. You wrote:
   • "The Talmud Bavli is typically dated to circa 500 CE. If we accept this, along with he proffered 145 CE date, it's hard to justify your use of the term 'consequently.' In other words, there seems to be no there in your therefore .."
8. In my post #89, I wrote: "Well and good. Then in that case, so it would seem to me,
   (a) Either the apocryphal Eve & serpent incident was invented by a Christian and by some odd happenstance happened to be incorporated into the Talmud,
   (b) Or an alleged Christian came up with the porn version around 145 and the compiler(s) of the Talmud also came up with their nearly identical version some 450 years later; and the appearance of both porn versions of Genesis 3 is sheer coincidence.
9. To which your post #90 responded with: "That is not at all a reasonable inference. Rather, if one accepts that the Greek was penned a few centuries before the Aramaic, it should seem to you that:
   • (a) the Talmud version was influenced by the Greek, or
   • (b) both Talmud and Greek versions owe there parentage to some earlier (perhaps gnostic) midrash circulating in the diaspora, or
   • (c) coincidence.
   • 
     
   • None of the above is served by references to "some odd happenstance" and "porn," which strike me as unhelpful and a little childish.

========================================================================================================

Perhaps you can tell me what the point of this "off-thread" discussion of my "off-thread" speculation in my post #79 is all about? [See #2 above.] ?

 

[susanblange]

Adam comes from adamah which just means "ground", not "out of the ground" and in Isaiah 27:1, the text uses the word nachash twice, each time modified by an adjective (b'ri'ach, fleeing or elusive and akalaton, twisting), and each time, explaining an attribute of the Livyatan. Nothing to do with anatomy and nothing to do with "man."

Your definition of Adam is not what my Bible dictionary says. A&E is a parable and it is not meant to be taken literally. Regarding Isaiah 27:1: "the piercing serpent". The Messiah was pierced five times when she was "crucified" by her father. "The crooked serpent". She was robbed twice by her father totaling $5500.00. She was also a slave and a prisoner between the ages of eight and fifteen. She worked about twenty hours a week doing all the house work and all the yard work and she made $1.50-7 1/2 cents an hour. There are only about 5000 words in the Hebrew language and each word can have multiple meanings. I prefer to read the English. It will be the universal language in the Kingdom of God. Zephaniah 3:9. English is the most widely spoked second language in the world. There was supposed to be a clue as to which version of the Bible is the best besides the Hebrew. I was born in San Diego, Ca. This means St. James, or King James.

 

[rosends]

Your definition of Adam is not what my Bible dictionary says.

May I see a link to your dictionary? The word as written lacks any prefix that would change it from the simple noun to include a preposition. A modern dictionary has Check out the translation for 'אדמה' on Morfix Translation and Dictionary
I'm not much of a fan of this site, Adamah Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary but it also just has the noun.

Regarding Isaiah 27:1: "the piercing serpent".

No, the text has "elusive" and "twisting". 27:1 has no word "piercing."

There are only about 5000 words in the Hebrew language

Really? Hebrew speakers would disagree. The Even Shoshan dictionary has over 70,000 words. Here is some other information https://www.quora.com/How-many-uniq...re-in-the-Old-Testament-Tanakh-Are-there-8674

and each word can have multiple meanings. I prefer to read the English. It will be the universal language in the Kingdom of God. Zephaniah 3:9. English is the most widely spoked second language in the world. There was supposed to be a clue as to which version of the Bible is the best besides the Hebrew. I was born in San Diego, Ca. This means St. James, or King James.

Tzephania doesn't mention English. In fact, because it says that the clear language will be one in which one can invoke God's name, it must be speaking of Hebrew. Why rely on a translation? Even you say "best besides the Hebrew." As the Metzudat David says, "כי אז אהפוך. אשר אז אהפוך על העכו״ם שידברו שפה ברורה תמורת עמקי השפה אשר עמכם ר״ל שידברו בלשון הקדש במקום הלשון שמדברים עכשיו"

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Adam/Satan/Chris was in the Guinness Book of World Records in the early eighties for the biggest "serpent" in the world. The photograph was anonymous and only from the waist down, but it looked just like him.

What in the world are you talking about???

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Messiah was pierced five times when she was "crucified" by her father. "The crooked serpent". She was robbed twice by her father totaling $5500.00. She was also a slave and a prisoner between the ages of eight and fifteen. She worked about twenty hours a week doing all the house work and all the yard work and she made $1.50-7 1/2 cents an hour.

Are you referring to yourself? What a minute, you think you're the Messiah?