Observations promoting Intelligence behind life & support systems

[shmogie]

If species were "intelligently" designed, why have 99% of the species that have ever existed gone extinct?

Furthermore, if God is all-knowing, then he knew that Adam would rebel against him, meaning that Adam's rebellion was already determined. Thus, Adam cannot be responsible for his action of rebellion since it was already determined.

What does all knowing mean ? Omniscient ?

I do not believe God is omniscient, that is, He knows everything that has or is happening, and everything that will happen

The open view of God proposes that He cannot know with certainty what has not happened. He can plan for every possible scenario that could happen, yet He does not know what will happen.

He can reach into history through His omnipotence to bring His will about.

God is not responsible for the actions of the created beings and free will is totally established.

 

[Ponder This]

1) Purposeful interactive systems. Like between flora and fauna (carbon dioxide, and oxygen reciprocation.) Even down to the clownfish / anemone symbiosis. (Evolution explains that developed, how exactly?) It is design.

2) The Cambrian Explosion. Separate creative events. (Where are the obvious precursors? Surely they’re there...right?) The mammalian Explosion, 66 mya, is similar.

3) The sheer diversity of organic body plans. Those living and extinct, it numbers over a billion species! (Darwinian processes have no evident creative power, to explain such scale we observe.... oops, there’s empirical data again!)

4) Irreducibly complex systems. Like the bacterial flagellar motor (which apparently came after the T3SS), the blood-clotting cascade, and others, suggested by Behe.

(I was told, by @Dan From Smithville , that this has been refuted...but he provided no reference.)

These are just some obstacles to evolutionary mechanisms. But these evidences support an Intelligence behind them. Antony Flew finally recognized this.

The purposeful nature of these examples, indeed of all systems, imply design.

Many organisms attack humans (and other creatures) and make us sick, even kill us.
Was this part of the original design? No.
Adam’s rebellion created many problems. But when we read Isaiah 11:6-9, esp.vs 9, it tells us that peace “will” exist, according to Jehovah’s purpose. Ephesians 1:10 states God’s will is “to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth, through Christ.”

More evidence will be posted.

The problem with the design theory is that we don't have a clear understanding of how things get designed.
It's not a process that is clearly distinguishable from evolution.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The problem with the design theory is that we don't have a clear understanding of how things get designed.
It's not a process that is clearly distinguishable from evolution.

And of course the even bigger problem is that it is not a theory.

 

[Milton Platt]

1) Purposeful interactive systems. Like between flora and fauna (carbon dioxide, and oxygen reciprocation.) Even down to the clownfish / anemone symbiosis. (Evolution explains that developed, how exactly?) It is design.

2) The Cambrian Explosion. Separate creative events. (Where are the obvious precursors? Surely they’re there...right?) The mammalian Explosion, 66 mya, is similar.

3) The sheer diversity of organic body plans. Those living and extinct, it numbers over a billion species! (Darwinian processes have no evident creative power, to explain such scale we observe.... oops, there’s empirical data again!)

4) Irreducibly complex systems. Like the bacterial flagellar motor (which apparently came after the T3SS), the blood-clotting cascade, and others, suggested by Behe.

(I was told, by @Dan From Smithville , that this has been refuted...but he provided no reference.)

These are just some obstacles to evolutionary mechanisms. But these evidences support an Intelligence behind them. Antony Flew finally recognized this.

The purposeful nature of these examples, indeed of all systems, imply design.

Many organisms attack humans (and other creatures) and make us sick, even kill us.
Was this part of the original design? No.
Adam’s rebellion created many problems. But when we read Isaiah 11:6-9, esp.vs 9, it tells us that peace “will” exist, according to Jehovah’s purpose. Ephesians 1:10 states God’s will is “to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth, through Christ.”

More evidence will be posted.

This argument has been shot down so many times it is becoming laughable that it is still being posted. Read the abundant counter arguments already on the internet and in scientific papers and counter those instead of starting over with the arguement as if it has never been heard before.

 

[atanu]

As I see it, the unconscious mind is our interface to reality. Our conscious awareness takes up at most 5% of our brain function. The other 95% is off doing God knows what.

So when you dream, you ever notice how you have other folks in your dreams acting autonomously? They act and speak without you consciously controlling them. So, your unconscious mind can create autonomous entities for you to interact with. I suspect our experience of spiritual interactions are a creations of our unconscious mind. While our unconscious mind is part of our brain, it acts as almost a separate entity since we are not consciously aware whats happening with it.

So I'm pretty certain the unconscious mind is capable of creating an autonomous entity for us to consciously interact with. Folks raise as a Christian, the unconscious mind has a lot of data to work with in creating God/Jesus/a Holy Spirit. I see this as a strong possibility. Doesn't mean these can't actually exist externally, it is as possible IMO these are created internally in the unconscious mind. Muses, spirits of the dead, whatever we come to believe, the unconscious mind is capable of creating an entity to support that belief.

Good post. I will like to make few points.

As per Jung, unconscious is actually the ‘collective unconscious’. There are now empirical evidences of transpersonal experiences that suggest that Jung’s hypothesis was correct. OTOH, there is nothing like an actual separate unconscious from the conscious.

It is ego consciousness that amplifies by repeated self reference to ‘I am this body’ consciousness and pushes away the ‘not me’ consciousness to ‘subconscious ‘ status. Ego forgets the non dual nature of self. Yogis who overcome the illusion of “I am this body”, lose the sense of unconscious too. Then consciousness is non dual.

YMMV.
...

Pertaining to this thread, I believe that TOE never claims that life-consciousness came up through Evolution. But neo Darwinian’s, imo, force the idea of evolution of intelligence from inanimate matter. So, I do not agree that only the ID proponents are fundamentalists.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

This is 'shredding'?

<a href="Why are Jehovah's Witnesses reluctant to discuss their faith?">Why are Jehovah's Witnesses reluctant to discuss their faith?</a>

It's the only response you gave, with any substance. It refutes nothing!

Lol.

Yes. It is shredding. Got you all riled up pretending that it meant nothing. Is that your expertise showing?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

But I thought evolution did explain it!
That's what we are all being told.

Lol.

The theory of evolution is the best explanation science has for the facts and observations we see in living things. You aren't even bringing anything to the table, but arrogance and religion parading as science.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

That's it? That's the full extent of your reply?

Yes. That is his entire argument based on all his expertise that he is really, really, really confident is a greater expertise than anyone actually trained in and working in science.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Good post. I will like to make few points.

As per Jung, unconscious is actually the ‘collective unconscious’. There are now empirical evidences of transpersonal experiences that suggest that Jung’s hypothesis was correct. OTOH, there is nothing like an actual separate unconscious from the conscious.

It is ego consciousness that amplifies by repeated self reference the ego ‘I am this body’ consciousness and pushes away the ‘not me’ consciousness to ‘subconscious ‘ status. Ego forgets the non dual nature of self. Yogis who overcome the illusion of “I am this body”, lose the sense of unconscious too. Then consciousness is non dual.

YMMV.
...

Pertaining to this thread, I believe that TOE never claims that life-consciousness came up through Evolution. But neo Darwinian’s, imo, force the idea of evolution of intelligence from inanimate matter. So, I do not agree that only the ID proponents are fundamentalists.

What is ""life-consciousness"? Undefined terms are nonsense terms.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Thanks for posting that link, it was just abstract. I downloaded the PDF, and am reading it.


Now, don't present a straw-man. I said micro-evolution occurs, did I not?
If that even happened. Human immune system is not functioning like it was designed. (At one time, I was immune to poison ivy, sumac , etc. Not anymore.)
So I think I did answer your question.

It is well known that people can become allergic to Toxicodendrun sp. as they mature and age. The reverse is also known.

You have supplied no evidence for your assertion that the human immune system was designed, but if it were, you are saying it was poorly designed.

I would suggest taking lots of TP on any camping trip you go on.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Thanks for posting that link, it was just abstract. I downloaded the PDF, and am reading it.


Now, don't present a straw-man. I said micro-evolution occurs, did I not?
If that even happened. Human immune system is not functioning like it was designed. (At one time, I was immune to poison ivy, sumac , etc. Not anymore.)
So I think I did answer your question.

I don't think any of could make a straw man argument if we wanted to. You cornered the straw market.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No, it's sort of easy to figure out, but I realize that you're not inclined toward a spiritual / Biblical understanding.... you and I and everyone here will possibly die. That wasn't part of Jehovah's original design, either.

Be that as it may, design is evident everywhere...including in nature, in the Laws that control it, and in the interaction between them.

So no answer then. Got it.

You been holding out on us. This is some incredible scientific expertise you got there.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Then ignore the thread.

Please.

Or post something that refutes it.

I'm tired of reading only contrary opinions.

I see you get testy when people start asking for evidence. I guess this is just not going to be an easy ride for you then.

Several people have so far. Are you going for some sort of personal record for the number of people that refute your assertions?

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is well known that people can become allergic to Toxicodendrun sp. as they mature and age. The reverse is also known.

You have supplied no evidence for your assertion that the human immune system was designed, but if it were, you are saying it was poorly designed.

I would suggest taking lots of TP on any camping trip you go on.

I find it highly ironic that the only "evidence" for a designer that creationists can come up with is for an Incompetent Designer. Not quite the ID that they were after.

 

[ChristineM]

(Evolution explains that developed, how exactly?) It is design.

1) Evolution explains that developed exactly?) It is design.

There, fixed

The Cambrian Explosion.

2) Lasted close on 550 million years, thats over 8 times as long as it has been since dinosaurs lived. So 'explosion' can only be seen as exploding in geological terms.

The sheer diversity of organic body plans.

3) see one

Irreducibly complex systems.

Irreducible complexity, the only people defending it are the descovery institute and that should tell you plenty. It is based on a total and deliberate misunderstanding of genetics, cannot be falsified or even verified, he [behe] refuses to identify his methods to science so his claim can be peer reviewed. Almost as though he is scared of the results. The arguments he does give are circular and 'god dun it' without evidence of god, is not even an argument.

For your edification. Enjoy

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You seem quite reasonable. What's your take on ghosts, or other paranormal activity?

Better ask him about flash-frozen buttercup mammoths too. Like ghosts, people claim to have seen em, but there is no evidence for it.
There's many on this forum, who claim to speak with spirit guides, or dead ancestors, or experience strange events using Ouija boards or other occult devices / activities.

Are these ones "making it up"?

What does this have to do with a scientific argument? You have claimed to reject evolution based on the science and it has nothing to do with your churches doctrine. Now you are meandering off into an episode of Scooby Doo. What's up?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I find it highly ironic that the only "evidence" for a designer that creationists can come up with is for an Incompetent Designer. Not quite the ID that they were after.

That is what he is telling us. According to him, God designed everything, but did a right crappy job of it and everything just went south as soon as God turned it lose. I am aghast at the Incompetent Design movement here.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

The book of Jonah, alone, tells us that your pov is wrong.

Genesis 18 disclosed that your view of God is wrong.

(We've gone over this before.)

So much for a scientific argument, not that there was ever going to be one.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Then show me the post.

You saw it. You even linked it, but you didn't respond to it. Funny, if it didn't shred your assertions, you think you would have responded to that and easily shown that I was wrong. Didn't happen though, did it sport.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Typical atheist response. sarcasm, and belittling.

You demand evidence, then when one posts what they think is evidence, you go into the standup routine.

Why not address his points ? You seem to be an expert in evolution, and know where to find all the refutation.

This is the new atheist approach, all based in patronizing. smug superiority.

Given that I am not an atheist, my responses must not fall under the umbrella of your post. Actually, @Hockeycowboy is claiming to provide evidence. But all he has provided is a list of assertions and no evidence. However, I did address them when he posted the exact same thing on another thread. Others have addressed them as well.

Who are you talking to, by the way?

I don't know about the atheists here, but I got tired of the creationist patronizing, smug, arrogant superiority a long time ago. I just expect it now as part of their routine.