What’s your main reason for being a theist or an atheist?

[Trailblazer]

Exactly! All gods require magic. Magic isn't real. Therefore? No god is real.

God does not require magic since God does not have any needs.
Therefore God is real.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What an argument! Did the Flying Spaghetti Monster ask anything from you?

 

[Phaedrus]

Did the Flying Spaghetti Monster ask anything from you?

Only when I wear a colander on my head.

 

[FooYang]

What an argument! Did the Flying Spaghetti Monster ask anything from you?

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is just matter, energy and the Big Bang. The Flying Spaghetti Monster = Brahman, in your belief system.

 

[Windwalker]

But there’s zero evidence outside of personal experience for atheism too. The strongest evidence for Theism is arguably the life example and Teachings of the recognised Religious Founders.

I have to say I find this to be quite off putting. It biases one's own religious prophets. What about the rest of us human beings? I had a very direct, very personal, absolute firsthand experience of the divine when I was young, and it has persisted through the years. No "prophet" titles necessary. No elevation to Messenger status required.

The greatest evidence for the Divine, is human experience. Not just mine. Not just the legended select chosen few. But many. Many humans who like all these other mythologized selected few to elevate above others as superhumanly special, stand amongst the rest of the uncelebrated ones, like you or me driving our cars along main street, rather than rising on the wings of angels above mere mortal men.

The very common human experience of the divine, shared down to the lowest levels of human rankings, is the basis of belief in God. It has nothing to do with "Messengers". Those are just packagings to make the commonplace spiritual reality marketable by rarefying it. It's selling religion, not God.

The greatest evidence for God, is a life of love. Like my mother's. Everyone has some "messenger" in their lives, if they can see it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

My main reasons - the concept of God/gods/creator, as for most of the religions, just appears to be something more likely to have originated from human projection than being the best explanation of reality. Religions more or less confirm this in their behaviour, and the religious also. And after seven decades of witnessing life and viewing what others do, I have had no impetus to change my views on this. If there is some creative force (I'll leave that as a slim possibility) I'm not sure it has any relevance for us or anything else in existence. Postulating such (God/gods/creator), deriving religions, and all the rest seems to have caused as much trouble as just leaving the issue alone - and perhaps a lot more.

I've not really had any experiences in my life that can't be explained by something other than being divine in nature and apparently neither have many of my friends. And I do think we can live just as well, and possibly better, without religious beliefs - given the conflicts most have caused, and still do cause around the world. They might be natural to humans but so were many other things which we discarded long ago - or most have.

Thank you for sharing why you are an atheist. I would presume many atheists share your perspective.

 

[Phaedrus]

The greatest evidence for the Divine, is human experience. Not just mine. Not just the legended select chosen few. But many. Many humans who like all these other mythologized selected few to elevate above others as superhumanly special, stand amongst the rest of the uncelebrated ones, like you or me driving our cars along main street, rather than rising on the wings of angels above mere mortal men.

The very common human experience of the divine, shared down to the lowest levels of human rankings, is the basis of belief in God. It has nothing to do with "Messengers". Those are just packagings to make the commonplace spiritual reality marketable by rarefying it. It's selling religion, not God.

The human experience is fallible. It is not evidence of anything realistically divine, but merely evidence of thoughts produced in the mind. Men create because of what they imaginatively conceptualize, and men continually create that which provides them comfort. Other people seeking comfort then cling to the same concepts due to the need for socialization and the feeling of acceptance that comes with it.

 

[Windwalker]

The human experience is fallible.

Yes, absolutely. Including everything you believe to be true as well. That's fallible too. I honestly don't know why "infallibility" is required to find satisfaction of mind. Do you? Is that even possible? Do believe it's possible?

It is not evidence of anything realistically divine, but merely evidence of thoughts produced in the mind.

What I am describing is beyond thoughts. This is what the displinces of meditation practices are about. To move beyond thoughts, ideas, conceptions, beliefs, and so forth. When one tastes an orange, they know it's something actual, and not a mere conception.

Men create because of what they imaginatively conceptualize, and men continually create that which provides them comfort. Other people seeking comfort then cling to the same concepts due to the need for socialization and the feeling of acceptance that comes with it.

And all of that is conceptual in nature. There is a difference between imagining the ocean, and swimming in the ocean. Only the inexperienced confuse the two.

 

[atanu]

I am extremely confident that none of us limited humans knows.

I agree.

Which is why I don't find religion very credible. Religion is a bunch of humans confidently asserting some really implausible things about the Creator, morality, the afterlife, and such.

Are you not generalising?

It stands to reason that there is vastly more to reality than we limited creatures can perceive or understand. So I am no hard atheist. But the humans claiming to understand things like God, and having no evidence stronger than hearsay and delusion, don't impress me.

Are you not contradicting yourself? You assert there can be vastly more in reality and then you say what Atanu or some other theist says is nothing but hearsay?

So while I believe that the word god is reasonably applied to "the reason that there is something, rather than nothing", that's as far as it goes. Agnostic deism is as close to theism as I get.

I do not reject your reasoning. Yet it is very incomplete.

People may have different levels of understanding and experiences. It is not necessary that you and me have same understanding. In such cases is it not wise to discuss while remembering your statement “There is vastly more to reality...”.

 

[atanu]

We all believe what we do for some reason. I’m a theist and believe in the God of Abraham. That God I believe is concerned for humanity and for each one of us. Out of His love for us all He’s guided us through His Great Educators such as Christ, Muhammad, the Buddha and Krishna to name a few. What I believe makes perfect sense to me but I can see merit in arguments that would reject such a view. I believe in God because:
1/ It seems rational
2/ It resonates with my experience in life
3/ It works practically.

.

That's close to my own thoughts. My experiences have caused me to accept that there is something beyond the logical mind that people use the word "God" for.

As to theism vs atheism, I don't really care. If I care about anything is what someone does with his or her belief. To me, an atheist who tries to live a life of truth, justice and compassion is closer to the mark than a believer who does not try to put the beliefs into practice.

The blue highlighted part is succinct and beautiful.

If one introverts the intellect, instead of seeing a fragmented world of objects, it can see its own source as a vastly infinite mind that spans all beings. It is more empirical than seeing an apple on one's palm, since the "I am" awareness that pervades is most intimate to everyone.

Prior to 2001, I was a militant atheist. Once during a religious gathering, a priest asked people to bow down to an idol. I did not and I was so angry at the priest that I could almost have thrashed him in public. But then he looked at me and smiled. Soon after, my father passed away of Cancer. He breathed his last on my arms. I was sad but a question arose. Where did suddenly his "I" consciousness go? Till that time I had never questioned the assumption that "This body is the self". I immediately sensed that the same river of consciousness flows through all -- through me, through my wife, and through all people who would want me to be dead. Soon after, Shri Ramana Maharshi came in asking me to enquire "Who Am I?"

I also agree with all three points @adrian009, particularly that the theistic worldview is more rational.

 

[j1i]

We all believe what we do for some reason. I’m a theist and believe in the God of Abraham. That God I believe is concerned for humanity and for each one of us. Out of His love for us all He’s guided us through His Great Educators such as Christ, Muhammad, the Buddha and Krishna to name a few. What I believe makes perfect sense to me but I can see merit in arguments that would reject such a view. I believe in God because:
1/ It seems rational
2/ It resonates with my experience in life
3/ It works practically.

An atheist could use exactly the same argument of course. I tried atheism for about a year but it was the worst year of my life. Some atheists would probably say the same about their experiences of theism. So I can see how atheism makes sense. It just doesn’t work for me.

Why do you believe what you do? We’re in the religious debates section so feel free to debate. I might too...who knows!? I don’t really like atheist verses theist debates. This could be s first. Let’s see how we go.

Absence of cognition
Lack of awareness
Interruption of spiritual nutrition factors

 

[Dawnofhope]

I was thinking it could be agnostic. I wasn't familiar with any of the terms until RF, to tell you honestly. Actually, a lot of things I didn't know about until I came on this site.

Sometimes I think what it would be like to believe in god. However, we're so Christianized that it would be hard to think of other ways of seeing god outside of the Abrahamic-mindset. It's so rich in some of our world cultures whether in a good way or bad that even if I were to believe, I wouldn't know where to start. Revelations would need to be specific. Very specific. Most I know or talked with who were atheist or agnostic and now Christian had already been Christian or muslim so have you. It's easy to l earn a language again even when you lost it. It just depends on who you speak to, where you live, and if you use the language again.

I know there are many of people who have big human revelations without attributing it to god. What is in life without god atheists are missing?

Christians would jump up and down (literally and not) to say jesus Christ. What would a Bahai say assuming he doesn't jump up and down?

I was very clear about definitions of atheism and agnosticism before starting this thread. Obviously there are ambiguities and nuances.

Atheism - Wikipedia

Agnosticism - Wikipedia

I've had the experience of disbelief or non-belief in any God or gods. However my experience wasn’t necessarily the experience of other atheists. It does help though.

I suspect once you have had an experience of being a genuine theist, you wouldn’t go back to atheism.

We live in a multifaith and multicultural world so it’s much easier to have a theistic experience outside the Abrahamic paradigm, Hinduism and Buddhism being obvious contenders. A Theist experience within an Abrahamic Faith need not shut the door to Theism outside an Abrahamic paradigm.

My first conversion experience was through the Christian Faith. My second through the Baha’i Faith. I used to think the phrase “I’ve seen the light” was a silly cliche. Now it seems to sum up the experience of encountering God quite nicely.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is just matter, energy and the Big Bang. The Flying Spaghetti Monster = Brahman, in your belief system.

Yes, it is, since it is all. You can see it, touch it, smell it, taste it. This is evidence. What evidence does our friend Trailblazer have (apart from the 'Made in Heaven' story)? Maid of Heaven - Wikipedia

You assert there can be vastly more in reality and then you say what Atanu or some other theist says is nothing but hearsay?

Do you have anything more than that? And then you build your castles without any base.

 

[FooYang]

It is, since it is all. You can see it, touch it, smell it, taste it. This is evidence. What evidence does our friend Trailblazer have?

You just proved the meaningless of the word Brahman in the way you apply it. Thanks for playing

 

[Dawnofhope]

Can i really answer that on RF or would you settle for indoctrination, peer pressure and gullibility.

As long as you follow the rules of the forum why not? However, attributing theistic belief to a weakness of character takes Theism vs atheism exchanges take away from constructive discussion and instead polarises people.

Philosophical thought? I am mire one for evidence rather than "wouldn't it be nice if"

I have a much greater reverence for the richness and diversity of thought with the traditions of Western philosophy.

Yes, in my view those who argue the side of theism dont seem to have much understanding of the words creator, omniscient and omnipotent.

Theists often recognise the rationale mind can never fully comprehend God. That is why arguments around semantics are often frustrating for both parties.

 

[Phaedrus]

Attributing theistic belief to a weakness of character takes Theism vs atheism discussion away from constructive discussion and simply polarises people.

I have always thought it enlightening that people were more important than ideas. People are to be respected, ideas and what people believe do not deserve the same.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

We all believe what we do for some reason. I’m a theist and believe in the God of Abraham. That God I believe is concerned for humanity and for each one of us. Out of His love for us all He’s guided us through His Great Educators such as Christ, Muhammad, the Buddha and Krishna to name a few. What I believe makes perfect sense to me but I can see merit in arguments that would reject such a view. I believe in God because:
1/ It seems rational
2/ It resonates with my experience in life
3/ It works practically.

An atheist could use exactly the same argument of course. I tried atheism for about a year but it was the worst year of my life. Some atheists would probably say the same about their experiences of theism. So I can see how atheism makes sense. It just doesn’t work for me.

Why do you believe what you do? We’re in the religious debates section so feel free to debate. I might too...who knows!? I don’t really like atheist verses theist debates. This could be s first. Let’s see how we go.

I'm an atheist because I like my beliefs to be a reflection of reality.
Every religion ever presented to me so far, was so out of touch with reality that it's not even funny.

I care about my beliefs being justified. I want to believe as much correct things as possible and the least false things as possible. I also don't want to hold on to false hope.

I'ld rather have the truth, no matter if that truth happens to be uncomfortable or inconvenient. The truth, is its own reward.

For these reasons alone, I could never be a theist.... Considering that theism is literally based on faith. That is to say: "just believing on bad or no evidence".

I could never do that.

I'll believe whatever can be rationally justified and independently verified.
No incarnation of theism has ever been shown to be rationally justified or independently verifiable.

Au contraire, it always comes down to having to "just believe" somebody.

So, that's why. Really simple.


I submit that my reason for being an atheist, is the exact same reason for why theists don't believe in alien abductees, big foot, pixies or undetectable unicorns.

Theists, for some inexplicable reason, simply hold this double standard where they fail (or refuse?) to apply the same level of scrutiny and scepticism to their religious beliefs as they would to every other claim

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm a panentheist. Panentheism goes beyond theism or atheism (two sides of the same coin).

Would you elaborate please?

 

[FooYang]

I'm an atheist because I like my beliefs to be a reflection of reality.
Every religion ever presented to me so far, was so out of touch with reality that it's not even funny.

How ironic. You don't believe in "God" but you still evoke the word "Reality" At least stay consistent and eradicate the word "Reality" from your vocabulary.

I submit that my reason for being an atheist, is the exact same reason for why theists don't believe in alien abductees, big foot, pixies or undetectable unicorns.

This is both an appeal to ridicule fallacy and a non-sequitur.
It's basically saying that you don't believe in electricity because your shoes are black. You don't believe in rain because you're out of cheese. You don't believe in cars because you're out of milk. You don't believe in birds because your floor needs a vacuum.

Theists, for some inexplicable reason, simply hold this double standard where they fail (or refuse?) to apply the same level of scrutiny and scepticism to their religious beliefs as they would to every other claim

I don't like Atheists who aren't skeptical of their own beliefs, it comes down to this. It's easy to call yourself a skeptic but very very few people actually are.

 

[Aupmanyav]

My experiences have caused me to accept that there is something beyond the logical mind that people use the word "God" for.

The blue highlighted part is succinct and beautiful.

Yes, but it is not logical. The entry of God opens the Pandora's box. Which God? Promoted by which prophet, son, messenger, saint (LDS), manifestation, mahdi? Which instruction is correct and which is wrong? Which book is correct and which is wrong? How many Gods are there? Are they all male, without any gender or female? How did this God create the Earth, in How many days? Did he need a rest on the seventh day? Is there a rebirth? Which is better cremation or burial? How many times a day we need to worship this God? Should we face East, West, North or South, while worshiping this God? Are we allowed to do anything other than remembering this God? Does this God hate LGBTQ? What if someone does not worship this God and does not honor a particular prophet, son, messenger, saint (LDS), manifestation, mahdi? Should we behead that person or ostraciaze him? Does this God judge people when they die or will do that only on a particular day, till then people have to wait in their graves to be raised? Are four marriages OK or three or two or just one? What do we accept if our books and science differ? Is Earth flat or spherical? Does Earth revolve around the sun or it is the other way around? I am not yet through with the list, it is unending. It is really maddening.