My take on the E vs C issue

[Goodman John]

Time does exist for "spiritual beings" but you use time reference in your explanation. You contradict yourself.

'Time' being a figure of speech that we can comprehend. For God and Satan, it's just business as usual, but for us we usually like to have some frame of reference for 'when' something occurs. It was not my intention to apply our understanding of time to God and/or Satan.

In the case of Creation and Evolution, certainly for God (or Satan) it would be pointless to assign a human timeline to their actions, but for our purposes we have to see it as 'six days' or 'billions of years'.

Of course, if we can provide evidence (or otherwise convince ourselves) that time as we know it does indeed exist for God and Co. then we have a whole new discussion about who, what, and when.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

There are simply too many incidents that occur, every day, to arbitrarily dismiss it!
On this thread, I was specifically referring to posters here who state they have regular dialogue with their spirit guides, gods, or other invisible entity. And this is only 1 forum; multiply this by thousands, and the number is huge! By just those who are willing to reveal it!! There are many more, I'm sure, who aren't comfortable discussing it.
Then there are those who've claimed to have seen Bigfoot, the kraken, ghosts (especially ghosts**), shapeshifting reptilians, chupacabras, Elvis or Michael Jackson (today, at walmart), UFO's.....no doubt that many of these are fraudulent at times, but I wouldn't lump them all together! Only a näive fool would do that....

**The following accounts include many people known for their rational thinking:
THE HAUNTED WHITE HOUSE — American Hauntings .....and that's just one "ghost". Those familiar with or working at the White House claim there are several:
White House Ghost Stories

But since the dead are dead -- they "are aware of nothing, Ecclesiastes 9:5"; their 'thoughts have perished, Psalms 146:4' -- there's definitely something going on, to betray people's trust!

If I had an encounter with a ghost, but couldn't produce/reproduce anything so that anyone else could experience it, and I couldn't encounter or even find it again, and I couldn't understand or interact with the realm it came from, and there was no way to measure or detect it in any way afterward then I would be forced to admit that my account shouldn't matter to anyone else. There is absolutely no reason for it to matter to anyone, because I necessarily wouldn't be able to give them anything useful to go on. Just a story. And if I couldn't do anything to encounter/measure/detect/interact with it again, then it probably shouldn't even matter to me either.

In the end, even if you were being attacked by spirits at random times, there is absolutely no way you could expect anyone to believe you if they only ever attacked you when no one else was around, and only ever did anything when no one else could witness your experience, and there was no trace whatsoever of their presence. All the skeptical among us could do with honesty in that case is give our condolences that you were having such troubles - some polite nodding as we back away slowly, to ultimately make our retreat. What else could you possibly expect?

 

[Shad]

'Time' being a figure of speech that we can comprehend.

No it isn't. You are babbling to get out of your contradiction

For God and Satan, it's just business as usual, but for us we usually like to have some frame of reference for 'when' something occurs. It was not my intention to apply our understanding of time to God and/or Satan.

You have no explanation without a time reference.

In the case of Creation and Evolution, certainly for God (or Satan) it would be pointless to assign a human timeline to their actions, but for our purposes we have to see it as 'six days' or 'billions of years'.

You assigned a sequence of events. You have no explanation without a time reference thus being bound by time

Of course, if we can provide evidence (or otherwise convince ourselves) that time as we know it does indeed exist for God and Co. then we have a whole new discussion about who, what, and when.

Prove God first. I will wait. Prove God is not subject to time outside merely making a definition or delcaration.

Your points are still weak with countering nothing I said. You just hand wave your own contradiction away. Try again

 

[Bear Wild]

I think that Chupacabra have gotten a bad reputation, because they are used in Chupacabra fighting. Especially in Texas. Really, any mythological, cryptid species can be dangerous if they are abused and mistreated. People think rabbits are cute, furry and safe, but take the Rabbit of Caerbannog. Nothing cute or safe about it.

National Inquirer you say. Well now, if a respected science journal like that is presenting evidence of the dangers of Chupacabra ownership, I might have to reconsider. Neighbor had a two-headed cow they did a report on once. Real nice pictures too.

How could I be so naïve. Rabbits always look so cute and cuddly. I forgot just how vicious they can be. Even the Knights with king Arthur feared these creatures. Now I see the reason for you picture; it is to strike fear into those who write posts that do not agree with yours. Me thinks some who post (no names mentioned) are unawares of just how vicious rabbits and bunnies can be. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Goodman John]

No it isn't. You are babbling to get out of your contradiction

I suspect you are attempting to pick a fight over what normally would be a common figure of speech. As such, I decline to be drawn in and refuse to participate. If you wish to have an actual discussion about Evolution versus Creation, I will be more than happy to engage, but quibbling over God being subject to time- or not- is irrelevant to that issue.

 

[Shad]

I suspect you are attempting to pick a fight over what normally would be a common figure of speech. As such, I decline to be drawn in and refuse to participate. If you wish to have an actual discussion about Evolution versus Creation, I will be more than happy to engage, but quibbling over God being subject to time- or not- is irrelevant to that issue.

Nope. I am pointing out your explanation requires a time reference or it is just babble. Calling it a figure of speech does not change it. You post about a series of events ergo time.Satan did X then did Y after X. That is part of your explanation.

Try again.

 

[Goodman John]

Me thinks some who post (no names mentioned) are unawares of just how vicious rabbits and bunnies can be. Thanks for the reminder.

Let us not discount the danger posed by African Swallows, which could conceivably drop coconuts on unsuspecting passers-by below. Dropped from a sufficient height, I suspect a coconut could have the potential for damage equal to or possibly greater than that of the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

How could I be so naïve. Rabbits always look so cute and cuddly. I forgot just how vicious they can be. Even the Knights with king Arthur feared these creatures. Now I see the reason for you picture; it is to strike fear into those who write posts that do not agree with yours. Me thinks some who post (no names mentioned) are unawares of just how vicious rabbits and bunnies can be. Thanks for the reminder.

I am so vicious, I do not fear talking to a person that uses the wise and crafty fox as an avatar. Fearsome a predator as they may be.

 

[gnostic]

By 'create' I don't mean 'creation as in the Book of Genesis, but creation most likely the Big Bang. Remember we're talking about spiritual beings and for them time essentially doesn't exist, so it's entirely likely that we're looking at billions of years of evolution and not *poof* here's a bunch of animals and people.

If time didn’t exist, then there would be no creation and no changes...which would also mean no evolution.

 

[Goodman John]

Perhaps God- or any being of the spiritual realm- isn't subject to time as we know it, and time only comes into play when a being or an object is created in the physical realm.

 

[gnostic]

Perhaps God- or any being of the spiritual realm- isn't subject to time as we know it, and time only comes into play when a being or an object is created in the physical realm.

That speculative at best.

 

[Goodman John]

That speculative at best.

Isn't faith and religion, even at its best, speculation? We're right back to Square One: Evidence. I freely admit I have absolutely no evidence to prove any claims regarding my own faith or religion (or, at present, lack of), while others may throw out the most outlandish claims and- simply because they believe it to be true- will not even consider the possibility they're wrong.

 

[gnostic]

Isn't faith and religion, even at its best, speculation? We're right back to Square One: Evidence. I freely admit I have absolutely no evidence to prove any claims regarding my own faith or religion (or, at present, lack of), while others may throw out the most outlandish claims and- simply because they believe it to be true- will not even consider the possibility they're wrong.

That's not what I meant, Goodman.

There will always those who believe and those who don't believe in God.

I wasn't saying that was the speculation.

The speculation I was referring to, was about your claim, that God existing "outside of time".

Perhaps God- or any being of the spiritual realm- isn't subject to time as we know it, and time only comes into play when a being or an object is created in the physical realm.

There are no evidence for being "outside of time", not in any theoretical model of physics, not in the mumbo-jumbo of philosophies, and not in religions or in spirituality.

All references to being "out of time" or not being subject to time, are mere speculations.