What does demon possession mean to you?

[Samael_Khan]

In the modern day, I ask this sincerely.

It's a phrase that's so common in the books I cringe every time I hear it. It's clearly a sign of medical ignorance.

To me it seems as if what the bible calls demon possession is actually mental disorders.

For instance "Legion" seems like a schizophrenic = but then that doesn't explain how Legion got transferred to the pigs according to the story.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

"As for me, I am going to bring floodwaters upon the earth to destroy from under the heavens all flesh that has the breath of life. Everything on the earth will perish. 18 And I am establishing my covenant with you, and you must go into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you. 19 And bring into the ark two of every sort of living creature in order to preserve them alive with you, a male and a female; 20 of the flying creatures according to their kinds, the domestic animals according to their kinds, and all creeping animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive. 21 For your part, you are to collect and take with you every kind of food to eat, to serve as food for you and for the animals.”

That is, at best, not even a rough outline of all the animals there.

So no magic.....the waters came from above and below the earth.....all of it was by natural means.

I haven't got to that yet. I'm still on the magic required to make this boat safely house all the animals and survive such a turbulent ocean.

It says Noah took in food for all of them.

It doesn't say they ate though.

That was the point....over time any creature can adapt to a change in diet.

One creature can't. It takes generations of an entire species to make such changes. That is what Darwin wrote.

If gorillas and hippos and giraffes can live on vegetation and remain strong and healthy, who needs meat?

That is the biology/digestive system of those animals that they need those diets. And gorillas, BTW, do eat small amounts of meat. Just because a cow is vegetarian doesn't mean a cheetah can be.

....you obviously did not read my reply. I covered that point.

No, you didn't. You said what the Bible says and this and that, but not how Noah would have known about clean and unclean animals since the Law had not yet been given.

 

[Rise]

In the modern day, I ask this sincerely.

It's a phrase that's so common in the books I cringe every time I hear it. It's clearly a sign of medical ignorance.

Given that this is a "Scriptural Debate" forum, the question you should be asking is "What does the Scripture mean by demonic possession". Or, a variant therefore, "what do you think the Scripture says demonic possession means?".

On this the Scripture is quite clear that demonic possession is not a modern medical diagnosis of any sort.

Modern medicine recognizes no condition that will:
a) Cause people to gain superhuman strength.
b) Cause people to know information about someone that is otherwise could not know in the natural.
c) Can be removed from the person with exorcism.
d) Can be sent from a person into an animal and have that animal then exhibit similar traits.

Demonic possession is a spiritual condition.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Another thing that must be assumed, but has no basis in fact is that even predators were all vegetarians. The acrobatics to rationalize and justify get more and more contorted.

No acrobatics, just reasoning on Scriptures.

What do you think is implied at Isaiah 11:6-9?

Jesus stated to the Sadducees (who were learned men), “You know neither the Scriptures, nor the power of God.” (Matthew 22:29) Might that also apply to many here?

On a different topic related to the Flood....let me ask you: do the Alps, the Himalayas, the Canadian Rockies...do they look like they’ve experienced millions of years of erosion? Nope, they don’t; despite the fact that these high ranges experience extreme weathering, their features look relatively young, geologically speaking.

Not that the rocks are young, I’m not saying that. But the features they form, are.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No acrobatics, just reasoning on Scriptures.

What do you think is implied at Isaiah 11:6-9?

Jesus stated to the Sadducees (who were learned men), “You know neither the Scriptures, nor the power of God.” (Matthew 22:29) Might that also apply to many here?

On a different topic related to the Flood....let me ask you: do the Alps, the Himalayas, the Canadian Rockies...do they look like they’ve experienced millions of years of erosion? Nope, they don’t; despite the fact that these high ranges experience extreme weathering, their features look relatively young, geologically speaking.

Not that the rocks are young, I’m not saying that. But the features they form, are.

It is not a question of interpreting scripture, it is one of evidence and the facts. There is no evidence of a global flood, there is nothing that demands that the scriptures be interpreted literally and not doing so does not make one not a "true" Christian.

In your expert opinion as a geomorphologist, what do you expect to see in mountains that would tell you they have not experienced erosion for millions of years. They aren't 4,500 years old either.

It is a question of back-breaking acrobatics and every time a creationist does that, they leave lots of new questions that they have to continue breaking their backs to rationalize and still no solid answers except to wave their hands and claim magic.

 

[Thief]

That would have been awkward.

check it out

Eve was made of a rib
not born of woman
no navel

Adam was given is twin sister for a bride

 

[Dan From Smithville]

check it out

Eve was made of a rib
not born of woman
no navel

Adam was given is twin sister for a bride

That was the awkward part.

 

[David J]

Given that this is a "Scriptural Debate" forum, the question you should be asking is "What does the Scripture mean by demonic possession". Or, a variant therefore, "what do you think the Scripture says demonic possession means?".

On this the Scripture is quite clear that demonic possession is not a modern medical diagnosis of any sort.

Modern medicine recognizes no condition that will:
a) Cause people to gain superhuman strength.
b) Cause people to know information about someone that is otherwise could not know in the natural.
c) Can be removed from the person with exorcism.
d) Can be sent from a person into an animal and have that animal then exhibit similar traits.

Demonic possession is a spiritual condition.

I'm sorry that my lack of formality bothered you. I will be more careful next time.

 

[Rise]

I'm sorry that my lack of formality bothered you. I will be more careful next time.

It's not a matter of formality but a matter of communication clarity.
Are you asking what the individual personally thinks "demonic possession" as a phrase means, or are you asking what they think the Scripture means when they talk about the phenomenon?
Which question you're asking makes all the difference in what kind of answer you'll get. It's the difference between a subjective opinion that can't be disproven, or an objectively determined analysis of Scripture which can give us a solid framework of telling us what demonic possession is and isn't.
It's very easy for people to have personal opinions that don't agree with Scripture, but if you care about that opinion lining up with what Scripture says then it significantly narrows the range of possible answers they can give.

 

[David J]

It's not a matter of formality but a matter of communication clarity.
Are you asking what the individual personally thinks "demonic possession" as a phrase means, or are you asking what they think the Scripture means when they talk about the phenomenon?
Which question you're asking makes all the difference in what kind of answer you'll get. It's the difference between a subjective opinion that can't be disproven, or an objectively determined analysis of Scripture which can give us a solid framework of telling us what demonic possession is and isn't.
It's very easy for people to have personal opinions that don't agree with Scripture, but if you care about that opinion lining up with what Scripture says then it significantly narrows the range of possible answers they can give.

Let's get objective.

Define biblical demons, and demon possession.

 

[Deeje]

We have Jesus and what Jesus told me and you to do. Even if there is no God, Jesus is still Lord and Savior. I am an atheist but I still hold and have my hope in Jesus. There's nothing that come between that faith and hope for me. Jesus is my Lord

This intrigues me Bob.....what is Jesus to an atheist?

Why did he come and what was the purpose of his ministry?

Was he sent? If so, by whom?

Was his death meaningful? If so in what way?

Is Jesus your god?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Sorry I somehow missed this reply.

It is not a question of interpreting scripture, it is one of evidence and the facts. There is no evidence of a global flood, there is nothing that demands that the scriptures be interpreted literally and not doing so does not make one not a "true" Christian.

In your expert opinion as a geomorphologist, what do you expect to see in mountains that would tell you they have not experienced erosion for millions of years. They aren't 4,500 years old either.

It is a question of back-breaking acrobatics and every time a creationist does that, they leave lots of new questions that they have to continue breaking their backs to rationalize and still no solid answers except to wave their hands and claim magic.

The evidence is there! I’ve covered this, and we’ve had dialogue over it..... Evidences Supporting the Biblical Flood
(I could provide more details, and adjust some of what I wrote, re: the Mammoth herds and other animals discovered in the permafrost.)

How could Noah be mythological, when he is mentioned in Jesus’ genealogy in Luke 3? Are you going to claim that all the others, including Jesus’ step-father Joseph, were mythical, too? Why would Jesus mention “the days of Noah” and the Flood and apply it to real people who would be living in the last days / our time*, if it was simply lore ? That would have no real meaning or importance.
Interesting that Jesus indicated that they ‘would take no note.” Matthew 24:37-39 (Are you perhaps in that group?)
This is what I meant, by reasoning on Scripture.

Just look at those high ranges, man! They have crisp, sharply-defined features. If you’re going to resort to sarcasm, then I take it you have no substantial rebuttal?
It doesn’t take an expert to see facts. We see exactly what we’d expect to see of geologically-young features — very little erosion. Millions of years of wind would have rounded those peaks!

As I said previously, no acrobatics required. But according to the Genesis account, Who brought the already-existing waters to the Earth’s surface? It says the animals “came to” Noah. (He didn’t ‘go get them’, as some skeptics have disingenuously inferred.) Who was behind that? Who closed the door? Who gave Noah the instructions to build the Ark, with those ideal ratios?Jehovah God did all that. Why do you and other skeptics then assume that God did nothing else to preserve and protect not only the Ark and its occupants, but also the Earth’s plant life below those waters? Is that too hard for Jehovah, who created the Sun and stars? He’s not required to tell us every little detail....we still have enough evidence to put our faith in the account.

* Regarding the Last Days being our time, actually beginning in 1914 — here is a lot of evidence:
Reply To: 1914 – what happened? – Heaven Net

 

[Rise]

Let's get objective.

Define biblical demons, and demon possession.

I've already given you some objective reasons why demonic possession in the Bible cannot be describing a modern recognized medical condition, as you seemed to claim it was, but how it is instead a spiritual condition.

If you're looking for more than that it would be helpful if you would first be more specific about what you're looking for.

Your question, or perhaps I should say your "demand" (it's hard to tell from your demeanor), is so open ended that I could answer it either in one sentence or a small book, depending on what you're looking for out of the answer.

I could Biblically define it as short and simple as "A spirit, not of God, that takes control of a person". Whether or not that is sufficient as a definition for you depends, as I said, on what exactly you're specifically looking to understand or prove about this topic.

If you can be more specific about what you'd like to Biblically know about this topic, I'd be happy to outline it for you.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Sorry I somehow missed this reply.


The evidence is there! I’ve covered this, and we’ve had dialogue over it..... Evidences Supporting the Biblical Flood
(I could provide more details, and adjust some of what I wrote, re: the Mammoth herds and other animals discovered in the permafrost.)

How could Noah be mythological, when he is mentioned in Jesus’ genealogy in Luke 3? Are you going to claim that all the others, including Jesus’ step-father Joseph, were mythical, too? Why would Jesus mention “the days of Noah” and the Flood and apply it to real people who would be living in the last days / our time*, if it was simply lore ? That would have no real meaning or importance.
Interesting that Jesus indicated that they ‘would take no note.” Matthew 24:37-39 (Are you perhaps in that group?)
This is what I meant, by reasoning on Scripture.

Just look at those high ranges, man! They have crisp, sharply-defined features. If you’re going to resort to sarcasm, then I take it you have no substantial rebuttal?
It doesn’t take an expert to see facts. We see exactly what we’d expect to see of geologically-young features — very little erosion. Millions of years of wind would have rounded those peaks!

As I said previously, no acrobatics required. But according to the Genesis account, Who brought the already-existing waters to the Earth’s surface? It says the animals “came to” Noah. (He didn’t ‘go get them’, as some skeptics have disingenuously inferred.) Who was behind that? Who closed the door? Who gave Noah the instructions to build the Ark, with those ideal ratios?Jehovah God did all that. Why do you and other skeptics then assume that God did nothing else to preserve and protect not only the Ark and its occupants, but also the Earth’s plant life below those waters? Is that too hard for Jehovah, who created the Sun and stars? He’s not required to tell us every little detail....we still have enough evidence to put our faith in the account.

* Regarding the Last Days being our time, actually beginning in 1914 — here is a lot of evidence:
Reply To: 1914 – what happened? – Heaven Net

What is it with you guys and all the crazy colors. You might as well post random characters. It is almost insulting to have look at and wade through something that would give Toucan Sam gastrointestinal distress of the mind.

If the evidence supporting a flood were so obvious and plentiful, why is it that the only phrase that keeps getting repeated is "The evidence is there". All I see is people hanging their hats on a few details like size ratios that may mean nothing except about a description of a boat. Certainly, it is not evidence that a flood happened. You are answering the question of whether the ark as it is described was similar to modern ships. This says nothing about whether it could float or was seaworthy either. You then take those meager facts and claim global flood. It would be like comparing the British naval empire to the ark, because both had wooden ships and claim that it was evidence for a global flood.

The evidence that you have presented has been covered and refuted. Just because you refuse to accept that failure does not mean that repeating it will make it suddenly support a global flood.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Sorry I somehow missed this reply.


The evidence is there! I’ve covered this, and we’ve had dialogue over it..... Evidences Supporting the Biblical Flood
(I could provide more details, and adjust some of what I wrote, re: the Mammoth herds and other animals discovered in the permafrost.)

How could Noah be mythological, when he is mentioned in Jesus’ genealogy in Luke 3? Are you going to claim that all the others, including Jesus’ step-father Joseph, were mythical, too? Why would Jesus mention “the days of Noah” and the Flood and apply it to real people who would be living in the last days / our time*, if it was simply lore ? That would have no real meaning or importance.
Interesting that Jesus indicated that they ‘would take no note.” Matthew 24:37-39 (Are you perhaps in that group?)
This is what I meant, by reasoning on Scripture.

Just look at those high ranges, man! They have crisp, sharply-defined features. If you’re going to resort to sarcasm, then I take it you have no substantial rebuttal?
It doesn’t take an expert to see facts. We see exactly what we’d expect to see of geologically-young features — very little erosion. Millions of years of wind would have rounded those peaks!

As I said previously, no acrobatics required. But according to the Genesis account, Who brought the already-existing waters to the Earth’s surface? It says the animals “came to” Noah. (He didn’t ‘go get them’, as some skeptics have disingenuously inferred.) Who was behind that? Who closed the door? Who gave Noah the instructions to build the Ark, with those ideal ratios?Jehovah God did all that. Why do you and other skeptics then assume that God did nothing else to preserve and protect not only the Ark and its occupants, but also the Earth’s plant life below those waters? Is that too hard for Jehovah, who created the Sun and stars? He’s not required to tell us every little detail....we still have enough evidence to put our faith in the account.

* Regarding the Last Days being our time, actually beginning in 1914 — here is a lot of evidence:
Reply To: 1914 – what happened? – Heaven Net

I forgot about your flash frozen mammoth/buttercup failure. That was very entertaining and a great example of how people will grasp at any wild story just to support their beliefs.

Incredible acrobatics are required. You are just in denial.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No acrobatics, just reasoning on Scriptures.

What do you think is implied at Isaiah 11:6-9?

Jesus stated to the Sadducees (who were learned men), “You know neither the Scriptures, nor the power of God.” (Matthew 22:29) Might that also apply to many here?

On a different topic related to the Flood....let me ask you: do the Alps, the Himalayas, the Canadian Rockies...do they look like they’ve experienced millions of years of erosion? Nope, they don’t; despite the fact that these high ranges experience extreme weathering, their features look relatively young, geologically speaking.

Not that the rocks are young, I’m not saying that. But the features they form, are.

The passage is a metaphor about the glory of God and the peace that being one with God will bring a person. It is as solid an interpretation as any long-winded interpretation I have seen.

You do realize that there are dated objects that have been found in those mountains that are older than the claimed date of the global flood. So if the mountains were formed by the flood, there is no reasonable explanation for those objects being there.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

That is, at best, not even a rough outline of all the animals there.

I haven't got to that yet. I'm still on the magic required to make this boat safely house all the animals and survive such a turbulent ocean.

It doesn't say they ate though.

One creature can't. It takes generations of an entire species to make such changes. That is what Darwin wrote.

That is the biology/digestive system of those animals that they need those diets. And gorillas, BTW, do eat small amounts of meat. Just because a cow is vegetarian doesn't mean a cheetah can be.

No, you didn't. You said what the Bible says and this and that, but not how Noah would have known about clean and unclean animals since the Law had not yet been given.

Still no answer as to the existence of fossil skeletal remains that show the evidence of being eaten by carnivores. If the animals were all vegetarian prior to the flood and the fossils are the result of the flood, this presents a paradox for the flood speculators.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Sorry I somehow missed this reply.


The evidence is there! I’ve covered this, and we’ve had dialogue over it..... Evidences Supporting the Biblical Flood
(I could provide more details, and adjust some of what I wrote, re: the Mammoth herds and other animals discovered in the permafrost.)

How could Noah be mythological, when he is mentioned in Jesus’ genealogy in Luke 3? Are you going to claim that all the others, including Jesus’ step-father Joseph, were mythical, too? Why would Jesus mention “the days of Noah” and the Flood and apply it to real people who would be living in the last days / our time*, if it was simply lore ? That would have no real meaning or importance.
Interesting that Jesus indicated that they ‘would take no note.” Matthew 24:37-39 (Are you perhaps in that group?)
This is what I meant, by reasoning on Scripture.

Just look at those high ranges, man! They have crisp, sharply-defined features. If you’re going to resort to sarcasm, then I take it you have no substantial rebuttal?
It doesn’t take an expert to see facts. We see exactly what we’d expect to see of geologically-young features — very little erosion. Millions of years of wind would have rounded those peaks!

As I said previously, no acrobatics required. But according to the Genesis account, Who brought the already-existing waters to the Earth’s surface? It says the animals “came to” Noah. (He didn’t ‘go get them’, as some skeptics have disingenuously inferred.) Who was behind that? Who closed the door? Who gave Noah the instructions to build the Ark, with those ideal ratios?Jehovah God did all that. Why do you and other skeptics then assume that God did nothing else to preserve and protect not only the Ark and its occupants, but also the Earth’s plant life below those waters? Is that too hard for Jehovah, who created the Sun and stars? He’s not required to tell us every little detail....we still have enough evidence to put our faith in the account.

* Regarding the Last Days being our time, actually beginning in 1914 — here is a lot of evidence:
Reply To: 1914 – what happened? – Heaven Net

Finally was able to read through this green ink.

People are free to believe the story if they choose. You obviously believe it. However, there is no evidence that says it happened as described and no reason to assume that it did other than wanting to believe it. You are falsely associating acceptance of reality as denial of God. This is untrue. Shame on you for doing such a terrible thing.

If God did as you claim, then why bother with ark at all. Why not just protect the chosen groups of people, animals and plants while the waters roared all about them. You are, as all flood fanatics do, relying on magic as the answer and taking this argument outside the realm or rational discussion.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I really appreciate your civil reply...

If God did as you claim, then why bother with ark at all. Why not just protect the chosen groups of people, animals and plants while the waters roared all about them.

He was dealing w/ demons, angels turned bad, who were sleeping w/ women and having offspring (Genesis 6:1-4). Violence was everywhere!
If you recall an incident where Jesus was going to remove some demons from possessing an individual, and they requested to go into a herd of swine?

Apparently, they can inhabit any living fleshly body. (Though not form bodies, ie., materialize, anymore; have you heard of ectoplasm?) All animals not in the Ark would have been susceptible to such ‘use’. Hence, it required their destruction.

And Jehovah God giving Noah those instructions regarding the Ark’s ideal ratios, and knowing that later, the event would be recorded, provides more evidence that the incident was fact.

You are, as all flood fanatics do, relying on magic as the answer and taking this argument outside the realm or rational discussion.

So, I take it that all those miracles that Jesus performed recorded in the Gospels...you think are fantasy, huh?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You do realize that there are dated objects that have been found in those mountains that are older than the claimed date of the global flood. So if the mountains were formed by the flood, there is no reasonable explanation for those objects being there.

Uh...there were people before the Flood, who made objects. The Scriptures state that even metal-working existed before the Flood.

Heck, if these instruments were secured, or held in a confined area, they could’ve survived the Flood, and been found and used by humans afterward!

I’ve got tools in my house now that were made between 800 — 1200 years ago.
I’ve got coins over 2,000 yrs.old.
And some people still live in primitive dwellings, and use stone tools. A thousand years from now (if things were allowed to continue), archeologists might discover them & conclude, “These were stone-age people”! Lol.

I think Ötzi the iceman may have lived before the Flood, actually. He died violently, it seems....violence was quite prevalent then, according to Genesis.