What does demon possession mean to you?

[IndigoChild5559]

In the modern day, I ask this sincerely.

It's a phrase that's so common in the books I cringe every time I hear it. It's clearly a sign of medical ignorance.

I don't have answers, only various thoughts. Science doesn't have answers on this.

Psychology groups it with the dissociatiative disorders, but is unable to do anything to help it. The only known help is actually exorcism, but not always, and when it does help, it is often over the course of many years.

A description of possession would be where a person begins to lose control over what they say and do, and attributes this to a force outside their body. Furthermore, after psychological assessment, no other mental illness can be found for it (i.e. they are not malingering, not psychotic, it is not due to a personality disorder, etc.) and there is no underlying physical ailment (such as epilepsy). Indeed, the Catholic Church will not even consider exorcism unless physical and mental illness is first ruled out. It is also worth noting that the behaviors are usually deleterious to the individual and become more so over time.

Possession is interpreted differently by different cultures. In some, it is the simple possession by one's ancestors, or the possession by a Buddha or other deceased spirit whom one is channeling. In others, it is a malevolent spirit, or demon.

The best known exorcism was the one in the movie, The Exorcist, which was popular in the 70's. The movie was based on a true life story, though dramatized. What they don't tell you in the movie though, was that the actual case lasted a long, long time. Exorcisms really don't happen in just a one time several hours kind of thing. They go on for months, sometimes years. Sometimes they don't work at all.

I did have the occasion to talk with a Catholic exorcist. He would not go into detail about what he did. But he did VERY MUCH believe in the reality of demons. When I said I wasn't sure if I did or not, he simply said with conviction that if I had seen what he had seen, I would believe without doubt. One of the things he said that was interesting was that people "slid" into demon possession. I remember what he said, and researched it afterwards, and there are definitely known stages.

It would often begin with voluntary, willful entertainment of sin and sinful ideas. Sure most people do that, but with some they go further, inviting rationalizations for evil. They spread their sin to more areas and take steps to numb their conscience. It is not unusual for the person to dabble in the occult--some say this "opens a window." The evil may take shape and form in their consciousness as a person or animal that they "see" in their dreams or which simply comes into their minds. This is still not demon possession; it is still just ordinary sin.

But then manifestations begin. Hearing footsteps, hints of voices. Smelling strange odors. Objects around the house being moved without any apparent reason. This stage is called Infestation. All the manifestations effect objects, not the person.

The next stage is called Oppression. It is attacks against the person. We are talking about frequent illnesses, depression, anxiety... Sleep problems like anxieties and frequent nightmares. Employment problems and financial difficulties. Okay, okay so these things happen in every life. But do they happen in rapid success? One right after the other? Or God forbid all at once? When they avalanche, that is a sign of Oppression.

Next is Obsession. The person realizes that a demonic force is at work and dwells upon it, and at the lack of control they have over their life.

Incomplete Possession. The person is compromised but is still fighting. They are so broken down by the earlier stages that the demon is able to occasionally obtain control over their actions. Telltale signs of possession are inhuman strength, speaking in languages they've never learned, inordinate aversion to holy objects, and knowledge of events they could not possibly know.

Complete Possession. The person has given themselves over. They have decided they like being possessed and they work with the demon.

What is my own personal opinion? I'm just not sure. Certainly something terrible and evil is going on, but I don't honestly know if the problem is external or internal. I know that in my past I've had a tendency to write of as mental illness what has actually been evil, and I need to watch out lest I make that mistake here as well. What I do know for sure is that I haven't seen anything about psychiatric successes. I do know that exorcism, although limited, does seem to help. If I know of someone, I would therefore go this route.

 

[David J]

I don't have answers, only various thoughts. Science doesn't have answers on this.

Psychology groups it with the dissociatiative disorders, but is unable to do anything to help it. The only known help is actually exorcism, but not always, and when it does help, it is often over the course of many years.

A description of possession would be where a person begins to lose control over what they say and do, and attributes this to a force outside their body. Furthermore, after psychological assessment, no other mental illness can be found for it (i.e. they are not malingering, not psychotic, it is not due to a personality disorder, etc.) and there is no underlying physical ailment (such as epilepsy). Indeed, the Catholic Church will not even consider exorcism unless physical and mental illness is first ruled out. It is also worth noting that the behaviors are usually deleterious to the individual and become more so over time.

Possession is interpreted differently by different cultures. In some, it is the simple possession by one's ancestors, or the possession by a Buddha or other deceased spirit whom one is channeling. In others, it is a malevolent spirit, or demon.

The best known exorcism was the one in the movie, The Exorcist, which was popular in the 70's. The movie was based on a true life story, though dramatized. What they don't tell you in the movie though, was that the actual case lasted a long, long time. Exorcisms really don't happen in just a one time several hours kind of thing. They go on for months, sometimes years. Sometimes they don't work at all.

I did have the occasion to talk with a Catholic exorcist. He would not go into detail about what he did. But he did VERY MUCH believe in the reality of demons. When I said I wasn't sure if I did or not, he simply said with conviction that if I had seen what he had seen, I would believe without doubt. One of the things he said that was interesting was that people "slid" into demon possession. I remember what he said, and researched it afterwards, and there are definitely known stages.

It would often begin with voluntary, willful entertainment of sin and sinful ideas. Sure most people do that, but with some they go further, inviting rationalizations for evil. They spread their sin to more areas and take steps to numb their conscience. It is not unusual for the person to dabble in the occult--some say this "opens a window." The evil may take shape and form in their consciousness as a person or animal that they "see" in their dreams or which simply comes into their minds. This is still not demon possession; it is still just ordinary sin.

But then manifestations begin. Hearing footsteps, hints of voices. Smelling strange odors. Objects around the house being moved without any apparent reason. This stage is called Infestation. All the manifestations effect objects, not the person.

The next stage is called Oppression. It is attacks against the person. We are talking about frequent illnesses, depression, anxiety... Sleep problems like anxieties and frequent nightmares. Employment problems and financial difficulties. Okay, okay so these things happen in every life. But do they happen in rapid success? One right after the other? Or God forbid all at once? When they avalanche, that is a sign of Oppression.

Next is Obsession. The person realizes that a demonic force is at work and dwells upon it, and at the lack of control they have over their life.

Incomplete Possession. The person is compromised but is still fighting. They are so broken down by the earlier stages that the demon is able to occasionally obtain control over their actions. Telltale signs of possession are inhuman strength, speaking in languages they've never learned, inordinate aversion to holy objects, and knowledge of events they could not possibly know.

Complete Possession. The person has given themselves over. They have decided they like being possessed and they work with the demon.

What is my own personal opinion? I'm just not sure. Certainly something terrible and evil is going on, but I don't honestly know if the problem is external or internal. I know that in my past I've had a tendency to write of as mental illness what has actually been evil, and I need to watch out lest I make that mistake here as well. What I do know for sure is that I haven't seen anything about psychiatric successes. I do know that exorcism, although limited, does seem to help. If I know of someone, I would therefore go this route.

Thanks for the post.

First century people were lucky to understand anything scientifically. How they could distinguish anything betweend demon possession and mental illness is beyond me. When was mental illness officially recognized?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thanks for the post.

First century people were lucky to understand anything scientifically. How they could distinguish anything between demon possession and mental illness is beyond me. When was mental illness officially recognized?

We know that the Greeks had some idea of mental illness, as they had certain diagnoses, such as melancholia. Throughout the middle ages, the concept came in and out of style depending on who was running the show -- some people were simply more educated than others. It was in the 1800's that the first comprehensive diagnostic system was designed that organized disorders by their symptoms, which implied they had an underlying physiological basis. Freud, of course, was the first to understand that we had an unconscious mind, and developed talk therapy. The discovery that psychosis could be treated with major tranquilizers came in the 20th century, and was the beginning of pharmacological therapy.

 

[Rise]

I really don't understand what you're talking about.

You were asking if ancient people ever mistakenly thought a modern medical condition was the result of a demon when it wasn't.

I pointed out that your new question is not actually relevant to answering the original question of what "demonic possession" means when used in the context of the Bible.

Whether or not people have wrong ideas about disease and demonic possession, regardless of whether they are in ancient or modern times, doesn't change how the Bible has defined the concept of demonic possession for us.

The more relevant question to be asking here would be: "Based on the Bible, how would we know when a condition is caused by a demon vs what is caused purely by the laws of physics? Or do you always find one linked with the other in some way?"

First century people were lucky to understand anything scientifically. How they could distinguish anything betweend demon possession and mental illness is beyond me. When was mental illness officially recognized?

You ask how others in the past would know, but it's instructive for you to actually turn that question around and ask it of yourself to realize the flaw in your question:

How would you, as a modern person, know when mental illness is not purely caused by some kind of physical abnormality but actually has a demonic component behind it?
Mental illness is a nebulous topic that often doesn't have any discernable physical cause behind it's effects - So at what point do you think you'd be able to declare something is not merely a physical condition but a spiritual condition? You probably think you don't need to ask the question because you don't believe demons exist, but that demonstrates the flaw in your question; You're trying to hold ancient people to a standard that you wouldn't be able to hold yourself to. You're no more equipped, relying only on modern science, than they were to declare whether every case of mental illness is for sure physical vs spiritual in nature. Furthermore, if we accept the reality of demons as a force, then you would actually less prepared to accurately discern what is behind the cause of mental illness than ancient people were because you've refused to put a legitimate potential cause on the table for consideration.

Be careful that you don't confuse the medical industry merely putting a label on an observed type of behavior with the concept of the medical industry actually having any understanding of what caused the effect they are observing. Just because they labeled a behavior and put it in a book doesn't mean they actually know what caused it. This is a common practice in all forms of medicine to attach labels and names to things which are observed to exist but whose causes are still not known or understood. In some cases what modern mental medicine is doing is no better than what you accused ancient people of doing (You claiming they merely attached the label of "demon possessed" to an observed behavior they didn't actually understand). Well, modern medicine does just that at times - they just make the name they invent sound like something you'd find in a medical textbook. Inventing a name for something is not the same as identifying a cause. Of course, if demons are real, then ancient people weren't just inventing a phrase to attach to anything they didn't understood, but they had a good chance of accurately describing what was happening to the person.

The point being: Just because medical literature has a name and a label for a particular behavior doesn't automatically mean demonic possession is ruled out for that behavior. Which seems to be the false premise you are operating from. You seem to think modern medicine already has all the answers for what causes mental illness, and mistakenly believe you can rule out demonic influence as a cause. Before you could rule out demonic influence you would first need to have conclusive evidence of what physically is causing the effect observed. But, even then, you can't necessarily rule out demonic influence. As we see in the Bible, people have all kinds of physical ailments which are linked with demonic spirits, not just mental illness. So even though science might be able to poke around and figure out what is physically broken with their body, we still have to recognize the Biblical fact that a demon could have been behind either breaking the body in the first place or is what has prevented the body from being able to naturally heal itself.

 

[David J]

Given that this is a "Scriptural Debate" forum, the question you should be asking is "What does the Scripture mean by demonic possession". Or, a variant therefore, "what do you think the Scripture says demonic possession means?".

On this the Scripture is quite clear that demonic possession is not a modern medical diagnosis of any sort.

Modern medicine recognizes no condition that will:
a) Cause people to gain superhuman strength.
b) Cause people to know information about someone that is otherwise could not know in the natural.
c) Can be removed from the person with exorcism.
d) Can be sent from a person into an animal and have that animal then exhibit similar traits.

Demonic possession is a spiritual condition.

What is a spiritual condition? What exactly does that mean?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What is a spiritual condition? What exactly does that mean?

I'v never heard the phrase used before, but it's meaning is pretty obvious. It is the condition of the soul/spirit or the nearest approximation. Whether one is spiritually depressed, feeling guilty, numb to guilt, has a well nurtured sense of empathy and compassion or is narcissistic, etc. I supposed a Christian might also include whether one is saved or not. And whether one's soul is in a state of health or disrepair might make a difference how vulnerable one is to demon possession, regardless of what one believes demon possession to be.

 

[Desert Snake]

Demon possession is what it sounds like. The purpose is to be possessed by a demon, not really to 'work with' a demon.

The demon in real possession is doing the things, in other words. Very advanced it seems, not going to happen from dabbling, however one might get sort of a residual demonic overlay, or such

 

[sooda]

In the modern day, I ask this sincerely.

It's a phrase that's so common in the books I cringe every time I hear it. It's clearly a sign of medical ignorance.

Its means ignorant superstition.

 

[Rise]

What is a spiritual condition? What exactly does that mean?

For what purpose are you asking the question?

The Biblical definition of "spirit", although certainly interesting to talk about in it's own right, is not really relevant to proving your original claim or disproving any point I made about what the Scripture says demonic possession is - since it's already well established from the Scriptures given that demons are not consistent with any modern medically recognized condition. The exact nature of what Spirit is, while useful to know, isn't actually going to change the conclusions we draw that demonic possession could not have been merely a naturalistic medical condition with physiological causes.

Do you think the definition of "spirit" is relevant to your original claim? If so, how would it be? How do you think the definition of spirit would change anything that is being discussed?

If you can give a reason that establishes a need to have a very exact definition of spirit then I'll gladly provide an outline with Scriptural proofs of what "spirit" is and isn't.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Undiagnosed mental illness?

 

[Muffled]

Its means ignorant superstition.

I believe then that you eminently qualify.

 

[Muffled]

I'm not sure why you are discrediting the medical field. They aren't holding accountability to your grandson's father.

I believe I give credit where credit is due. A great deal of medicine does not heal people. I have high blood pressure. I take a pill and the BP is fine but I am not healed.

 

[Muffled]

OK, silenced and at distance, brainwashed? And why the 'one trick pony' thing

Somehow I doubt you have the power to possess someones.s mind whether you be friend or foe but how friendly is it to make a person your mind slave. Unless of course it is God then it is Christianity because God is friend and savior.

 

[sooda]

I believe then that you eminently qualify.

LOLOL.. How "Christian" of you.

 

[David J]

I believe I give credit where credit is due. A great deal of medicine does not heal people. I have high blood pressure. I take a pill and the BP is fine but I am not healed.

So, what has your God done to justify your belief?

 

[EtuMalku]

In the modern day, I ask this sincerely.

It's a phrase that's so common in the books I cringe every time I hear it. It's clearly a sign of medical ignorance.

First let's define what possession is and is not. According to Jung spirit possession is a primordial psychic phenomenon that denotes a peculiar state of mind characterized by the fact that certain psychic contents, the so-called complexes, take over the control of the total personality in place of the ego, at least temporarily, to such a degree that the free will of the ego is suspended.

In Enthnomusicologist Gilbert Rouget's excellent book "Possession Music & Trance" he points out that possession is a cultural phenomenon, psychologically speaking, the libido takes possession of an individual and that individual becomes the tool for the expression of creative dynamism itself. Possession trance consists of a change of identity, however this change is meaningless if not recognized by the possessed person's community. The possessed person only exists as such for the group and because of it. He goes on to explain that possession cannot function without being theater. At the level of ceremony/theater - it creates a certain emotional climate for the adepts, leading them towards that great mutation, occurring at the level of imagination, that consists in becoming identified with the spirit possessing him.

As for my personal insights into 'demonic' possession;
Aleister Crowley, had at the time, a unique view of the Goetic demons. Instead of actual entities, he saw them as aspects of a person’s mind. He believed one could control these aspects through ritual. By commanding a specific demon, one would be able to tap into a part of the subconscious and harness it’s attributes.

Back in the 'old' days (Neolithic to be exact) they drilled holes in your skull to let out the demons, this is called Trepanning. Funny thing they weren't that far off base as the brain's temporal lobe is the location of the key hole or entry point to the release of "referenced material" from other sections of the brain. This reference material comes in the form of "psychic" or "spiritual" phenomena, out-of-body and near-death experiences, alien abductions, past lives experiences, one's earlier repressed traumatic memories and the mystical or God experience . . . and seeing demons/angels.

Demonic "presences" are not surprising and in no way negatively reflects on the person having the experience. It is a normal and natural happening to a dis-inhibited temporal lobe, some institutionalized temporal lobe psychotics have daily communications with spiritual entities. Though, it is suggested that if you are experiencing these psycho-pathological disturbances in your normal everyday life, you might consider psychiatric evaluation.

But, if we are purposely dis-inhibiting the temporal lobe, for instance during ritual work, then we may expect to experience an occasional visitor or two in our ritual chamber. Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) they can never materialize into the objective universe.

 

[Muffled]

LOLOL.. How "Christian" of you.

I believe you are correct. As a Christian I believe Jesus is the Truth and so I speak the Truth.

 

[Muffled]

So, what has your God done to justify your belief?

He got rid of the demon that was plaguing me and the one that was bothering my wife. Neither was possession but the fact that demons are active enough to cause trouble indicates that they are also able to possess.

I am reminded of these two verses:
Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”
Luke 11:18 And if Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul.

I believe also that the mind can't be divided against itself. If there is an issue the spirit within usually wins.

 

[sooda]

Demon possession is what it sounds like. The purpose is to be possessed by a demon, not really to 'work with' a demon.

The demon in real possession is doing the things, in other words. Very advanced it seems, not going to happen from dabbling, however one might get sort of a residual demonic overlay, or such

How about Bronze Age ignorance and superstition.

 

[Muffled]

First let's define what possession is and is not. According to Jung spirit possession is a primordial psychic phenomenon that denotes a peculiar state of mind characterized by the fact that certain psychic contents, the so-called complexes, take over the control of the total personality in place of the ego, at least temporarily, to such a degree that the free will of the ego is suspended.

In Enthnomusicologist Gilbert Rouget's excellent book "Possession Music & Trance" he points out that possession is a cultural phenomenon, psychologically speaking, the libido takes possession of an individual and that individual becomes the tool for the expression of creative dynamism itself. Possession trance consists of a change of identity, however this change is meaningless if not recognized by the possessed person's community. The possessed person only exists as such for the group and because of it. He goes on to explain that possession cannot function without being theater. At the level of ceremony/theater - it creates a certain emotional climate for the adepts, leading them towards that great mutation, occurring at the level of imagination, that consists in becoming identified with the spirit possessing him.

As for my personal insights into 'demonic' possession;
Aleister Crowley, had at the time, a unique view of the Goetic demons. Instead of actual entities, he saw them as aspects of a person’s mind. He believed one could control these aspects through ritual. By commanding a specific demon, one would be able to tap into a part of the subconscious and harness it’s attributes.

Back in the 'old' days (Neolithic to be exact) they drilled holes in your skull to let out the demons, this is called Trepanning. Funny thing they weren't that far off base as the brain's temporal lobe is the location of the key hole or entry point to the release of "referenced material" from other sections of the brain. This reference material comes in the form of "psychic" or "spiritual" phenomena, out-of-body and near-death experiences, alien abductions, past lives experiences, one's earlier repressed traumatic memories and the mystical or God experience . . . and seeing demons/angels.

Demonic "presences" are not surprising and in no way negatively reflects on the person having the experience. It is a normal and natural happening to a dis-inhibited temporal lobe, some institutionalized temporal lobe psychotics have daily communications with spiritual entities. Though, it is suggested that if you are experiencing these psycho-pathological disturbances in your normal everyday life, you might consider psychiatric evaluation.

But, if we are purposely dis-inhibiting the temporal lobe, for instance during ritual work, then we may expect to experience an occasional visitor or two in our ritual chamber. Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) they can never materialize into the objective universe.

I believe he is absolutely wrong that that is always the case. No doubt the psych can cause a lot of trouble for instance in paranoia which is the most common mental problem the psyche remembers a bad event and causes the person to avoid circumstances because of it. It doesn't takeover the brain but does influence it. For instance I broke my arm roller skating to the tune of "Living on a Prayer" by Bon Jovi. Now when I hear that song on the radio I drive more carefully. My brain understands that the action is irrational but is not possessed by it just influenced. That is not how demonic influence and possession work. Granted the demons do look for a weak spot and a psychic problem might just be that.