Activist atheism

[tayla]

I see that as part of a larger problem of animosities across lines defined by what people believe or don’t believe. If you’re trying to help change that, maybe we could talk about our ideas and experiences some time.

Yes, your description of this phenomena is an improvement over mine in the OP. Thank you for it.

I am trying to contribute to improving things in this regard via my posts on ReligiousForums and my website. That's about all I can do I'm afraid; the remainder of my energies are spent playing with and walking my dogs.

 

[Jim]

I think you are saying that both science and religion are sources of truth, but that those people representing both are doing so in a manner that repels people from these truths. Is that correct?

Close. Not exactly. I see everything that people think of as “truth,” from science or from scriptures, as part of what blinds people to the light and repels them from it. The light that I’m thinking of might not be what you mean by “truth.”

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm glad you are not one of "them".

The ones I am referring to are those fitting the description in the OP. If you don't fit this description, I'm not referring to you.

I'm an atheist though. So I get a little twitchy when people tell me what atheists are like.
My wife and kids too.

It's no biggie, long as you realise you're talking about a subset...and a pretty small one in my personal opinion.
But if I said 'Christians have radical plans for our society' it might be fair enough if some tap me on the shoulder and said I was overstating.
If I said 'Theists have radical plans for our society' that would be even more true.

Atheists don't have a dogmatically consistent set of beliefs in the way some religious groups do. Just seems weird to be put in a bucket with other atheists.

 

[tayla]

That would be an issue... except that it is a fictional one, at least as described in the OP.

It's easy to find quotes showing it's not a fictional non-existent issue; that other people have noticed the same thing as I have. Here's one:

Atheism which is actively hostile to religion I would call militant. To be hostile in this sense requires more than just strong disagreement with religion -- it requires something verging on hatred and is characterized by a desire to wipe out all forms of religious belief.

--Roy W. Brown, "Europe Supports Secular Education", in the book "Religion", by Diane Andrews Henningfeld.
​

 

[tayla]

that does not and should not translate into any form of freedom from criticism once we start to consider actual ideologies, actions and goals in the shared world.

Yes, we should be able to analyze and discuss ideas without mockery (except for flat earth which should be mocked. Oh, and the inerrancy of the Bible).

 

[Revoltingest]

Here they are:

Do quotes such as these qualify as activism, meaning, wishing for change in society? (Argumentation is a tool of activism, an action.)

All these quotes assume it's better if there were no religion, with the assumption that certain intuitions promote religion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I would abolish schools which systematically inculcate sectarian beliefs.
--Richard Dawkins

How any government could promote the Vardy academies in the North-East of England is absolutely beyond me. Tony Blair defends them on grounds of diversity, but it should be unthinkable in the 21st century to have a school whose head of science believes the world is less than 10,000 years old.
--Richard Dawkins

How dare you force your dopey unsubstantiated superstitions on innocent children too young to resist? How DARE you?
--Richard Dawkins

Pat Robertson would be harmless comedy, were he less typical of those who today hold power and influence in the United States.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Look carefully at any region of the world where you find intractable enmity and violence between rival groups today. I cannot guarantee that you’ll find religions as the dominant labels for in-groups and out-groups. But it’s a good bet.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If children were taught to question and think through their beliefs, instead of being taught the superior virtue of faith without question, it is a good bet that there would be no suicide bombers.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If you feel trapped in the religion of your upbringing, it would be worth asking yourself how this came about. The answer is usually some form of childhood indoctrination. If you are religious at all it is overwhelmingly probable that your religion is that of your parents.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

I know I am in danger of being misunderstood by those people, all too numerous, who cannot distinguish a statement of belief in what is the case from an advocacy of what ought to be the case.
--Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene

Faith is an evil precisely because it requires no justification and brooks no argument.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Even if religion did no other harm in itself, its wanton and carefully nurtured divisiveness – its deliberate and cultivated pandering to humanity’s natural tendency to favour in-groups and shun out-groups – would be enough to make it a significant force for evil in the world.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If I convert it's because it's better that a believer dies than that an atheist does.
--Christopher Hitchens, Mortality

Religion is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life, before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead.
--Christopher Hitchens

I absolutely refuse to associate myself with anyone who cannot discern the essential night-and-day difference between theocratic fascism and liberal secular democracy....
--Christopher Hitchens, Christopher Hitchens and His Critics: Terror, Iraq, and the Left

Those of us who have freedom of speech will feel free to describe your teachings as the spreading of falsehoods, and will attempt to demonstrate this to your children at our earliest opportunity. Our future well-being—the well-being of all of us on the planet—depends on the education of our descendants.
--Daniel C. Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life

I'm struck by the fact that if one selects quotes from a few members
of a group, one can paint a picture of any extreme position.
Imagine finding prominent religious extremists, & using them
to paint all religious activists. It would be better to consider
mainstream advocacy from a group. That is where actual
power to effect change comes from. So surveys of beliefs
would be more meaningful.
Btw, some of the quotes you list aren't about activism, & are
even pretty reasonable.

 

[tayla]

But the rule is that I am responsible for everything within religion, but as an atheist that doesn't apply to you, because all atheists only use atheism to state a lack of beliefs in gods.

If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like atheists have the proper view; they stick to the topic and don't get side tracked.

 

[tayla]

Here:
https://www.iep.utm.edu/n-atheis/

A very interesting article. Some quotes:

Do quotes such as these qualify as activism, meaning, wishing for change in society? (Argumentation is a tool of activism, an action.)

All these quotes assume it's better if there were no religion, with the assumption that certain intuitions promote religion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I would abolish schools which systematically inculcate sectarian beliefs.
--Richard Dawkins

How any government could promote the Vardy academies in the North-East of England is absolutely beyond me. Tony Blair defends them on grounds of diversity, but it should be unthinkable in the 21st century to have a school whose head of science believes the world is less than 10,000 years old.
--Richard Dawkins

How dare you force your dopey unsubstantiated superstitions on innocent children too young to resist? How DARE you?
--Richard Dawkins

Pat Robertson would be harmless comedy, were he less typical of those who today hold power and influence in the United States.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Look carefully at any region of the world where you find intractable enmity and violence between rival groups today. I cannot guarantee that you’ll find religions as the dominant labels for in-groups and out-groups. But it’s a good bet.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If children were taught to question and think through their beliefs, instead of being taught the superior virtue of faith without question, it is a good bet that there would be no suicide bombers.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If you feel trapped in the religion of your upbringing, it would be worth asking yourself how this came about. The answer is usually some form of childhood indoctrination. If you are religious at all it is overwhelmingly probable that your religion is that of your parents.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

I know I am in danger of being misunderstood by those people, all too numerous, who cannot distinguish a statement of belief in what is the case from an advocacy of what ought to be the case.
--Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene

Faith is an evil precisely because it requires no justification and brooks no argument.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Even if religion did no other harm in itself, its wanton and carefully nurtured divisiveness – its deliberate and cultivated pandering to humanity’s natural tendency to favour in-groups and shun out-groups – would be enough to make it a significant force for evil in the world.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If I convert it's because it's better that a believer dies than that an atheist does.
--Christopher Hitchens, Mortality

Religion is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life, before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead.
--Christopher Hitchens

I absolutely refuse to associate myself with anyone who cannot discern the essential night-and-day difference between theocratic fascism and liberal secular democracy....
--Christopher Hitchens, Christopher Hitchens and His Critics: Terror, Iraq, and the Left

Those of us who have freedom of speech will feel free to describe your teachings as the spreading of falsehoods, and will attempt to demonstrate this to your children at our earliest opportunity. Our future well-being—the well-being of all of us on the planet—depends on the education of our descendants.
--Daniel C. Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life

Atheism which is actively hostile to religion I would call militant. To be hostile in this sense requires more than just strong disagreement with religion -- it requires something verging on hatred and is characterized by a desire to wipe out all forms of religious belief.
--Roy W. Brown, "Europe Supports Secular Education", in the book "Religion", by Diane Andrews Henningfeld.

On every political issue I’ve ever tried lobbying for, from environmentalism to peacekeeping to fighting poverty to women’s rights to stem cell research to abolishing vice laws to death-with-dignity legislation to improvements in tax and social welfare policy—literally everything—one group was always in my way: conservative Christians. Always. Their opposition to human betterment and social progress is extensive, multi-faceted, well-documented, and shameless. Faith. Belief. They create and feed that monster. And that’s why they must go.
--Richard Carrier, What's the Harm? Why Religious Belief Is Always Bad • Richard Carrier

 

[tayla]

the Well Known Liar For Jesus, William Lane Craig.

Yes, a horrible liar and deceiver.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's easy to find quotes showing it's not a fictional non-existent issue; that other people have noticed the same thing as I have. Here's one:

Atheism which is actively hostile to religion I would call militant. To be hostile in this sense requires more than just strong disagreement with religion -- it requires something verging on hatred and is characterized by a desire to wipe out all forms of religious belief.

--Roy W. Brown, "Europe Supports Secular Education", in the book "Religion", by Diane Andrews Henningfeld.
​

Honest question: why do you expect me to find that at all convincing?

As it stands, you are about as convincing as Flat Earthers right now. But putting this much effort at it, you may soon leave them behind.

 

[tayla]

First: materialism/physicalism can contribute to becoming atheist, but they are not assumed by atheism. It's entirely possible to be an idealist atheist.

Thank you, I have neglected to study idealist atheism. I need to start listening to this stuff instead of what I'm currently listening to.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes, we should be able to analyze and discuss ideas without mockery (except for flat earth which should be mocked. Oh, and the inerrancy of the Bible).

And what exactly guides those so very specific exceptions?

 

[tayla]

it's not atheism that will save us, but compassion.

Yes, thanks for pointing this out. Most of the time the atheists I listen to are so involved with talking about atheism and religion that they skip the important part.

 

[tayla]

I’ve seen people denouncing and ridiculing religious beliefs, and people who believe them, sometimes in ways that looked hateful to me.

Yes, I've seen this too. That's kind of why I started this thread, to discuss this exact topic. So far the posts have been very instructive.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes, thanks for pointing this out. Most of the time the atheists I listen to are so involved with talking about atheism and religion that they skip the important part.

The important part will vary enormously, depending on the goals of the discussion.

Sometimes raising skepticism, challenging theism or some similar goal will be involved.

Discussions about religion proper (which is IMO something quite independent from theism), compassion and whatever meaning and role you attribute to salvation is simply not a part of the scope of many situations.

 

[LuisDantas]

Does that include religious beliefs? I’ve seen people denouncing and ridiculing religious beliefs, and people who believe them, sometimes in ways that looked hateful to me.

So have I. And very consistently, the actors where emphatically monotheistic.

Very few people who are not find any reason to be troubled by diversity of beliefs and belief stances.

 

[tayla]

You know THEM!!!

The "them" who match the description in the OP, that's who. Why would I describe "them" so carefully but mean to refer to "those" not matching the description?

 

[tayla]

This is also true of people with strong religious positions. Many of those cite atheists as responsible for some very great atrocities in history, even when those atrocities are not the result of atheism, but rather some political ideology, lust for power, fear or some other human frailty.

Yes, this is a very bad thing to do.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Thanks for your honesty.

Often my interactions with atheists has been limited to them saying, "prove it", or some such short phrase. Usually they don't bother to understand my point. If I try to share more to help them understand, they merely say, "prove it", again. Kind of a dull interaction in the realm of ideas.

Why is being called an activist a bad thing? Don't all of us wish to share and persuade others of our great viewpoints and perspectives? And don't we all wish to improve our societies by ridding them of bad ideas? Such is the work of activists.

You seem to consider zealots as less extreme than activists. I think of it the other way around; zealots scare me. Fundamentalist evangelist Christians are zealots.

I would not say that a person that is trying to persuade someone is an activist, though an activist could try to persuade someone. In my mind an activist for a cause would tend to view that cause in absolute terms and not in a very open-minded style.

However, you have hit on one of the most important points of any interaction between people in a free society. Persuasive arguments are practically the only means to try and sway another person. Not only the points, but the quality of the argument can also have a positive or negative impact. Even where claims are made that cannot be objectively supported, the demeanor and sincerity of the person offering the argument can win the trust of the listener or lose it. This would be true if you have all the objective evidence that can be brought to bear.

The way I look at it, we can try to persuade people and if that fails, there is not much else to do, except evaluate your arguments, revise them, try to find holes or determine if it is valid to argue the point in the first place and continue on.

If I have placed zealotry lower than activism, it was not my intent. I consider the opposite to be the case in my way of thinking, though, given my personal view of activist, they are similar in many ways. I see zealots as even more intractable, fanatical and unreasonable. I do find that most of the fundamentalist, Evangelical Christians that I encounter on the internet are what I would call zealots and I would say that it is a prevalent behavior in that group.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Yes, this is a very bad thing to do.

It is poor reasoning, often incorrect and can be a type of poor claim from almost any side of the table.