Was Abraham a Jew ?

[sooda]

Well, for the same reason I believe Abraham was Muslim.. because its the original state so it is applicable to Adam as well. In Islam we believe in what is called Fitrah, which basically means that ever single being that has been given life is Muslim. But since we are all products of our social environment it is indeed society itself that can change a person.
Example: If a baby is born in say a Hindu home.. We believe the baby is born in Fitrah which makes him a Muslim and in this case it will be his parents who change him.

So it doesn't matter what story of Abraham or where he went.. He would have still been Muslim.. Just like all Prophets from Adam to Muhammad. Peace be upon them all.

Well done.

Abraham's mother was a Horite..

The BabylonianTalmud says that "Terah took a wife and her name was Amsalai, the daughter of Karnevo; and the wife of Terah conceived and bare him a son in those days." Jasher 7:50

This connects her to the Horite caste who maintained a shrine as Karnak on the Nile. It may also explain why she isn't named in Genesis. It was problematic to the rabbis that Abraham's mother was probably the daughter of a Horite priest. We shouldn't be surprised by this. It is a key trait of the Horite marriage and ascendency pattern that Horite men only married the daughters of Horite priests.

 

[Shad]

And yet JWs argue Muhammad couldn’t be a Prophet because He wasn’t a Jew, perhaps they should exclude Abraham as well?

No the argument is that he, Muhammad, is not descendant of Issac. There are also other arguments like prophecy was removed thus there were no more prophets.

 

[sooda]

No the argument is that he, Muhammad, is not descendant of Issac. There are also other arguments

See Bilaam in Numbers 22-24. He wasn't a Jewish prophet, was he?

 

[SA Huguenot]

Nope!
Abraham was not a Jew, but called a Hebrew because of his forfather Heber.
Abraham was also not a Muslim!
He left the pagan lands where Ba'allah, Allat and manat was worshipped.
Hubal was the religion of the fathers of the Arabs, who is simply called, Allah of the Moon!
This is the first ancient statue of Hu'Ba'Allah that was discovered in hazor in the 60's dating to 1400 BC
Note the pagan worship identified by the Pagan Moon crest on his chest. islam still uses it, and they dont know where it comes from.
Abraham worshipped YHWH, not Allah.
On YHWH's instruction these idols were destroyed by the sword, notice the decapitation of Allah's head by the hands of Joshua!
Anyhow, If I were to give you islamic evidence that Abraham was never a Muslim, he could not utter the shahadah.
because Muhammad was not born for 2 200 years!

 

[SA Huguenot]

See Bilaam in Numbers 22-24. He wasn't a Jewish prophet, was he?

No, Baalam was working for Baalak.
Look at the names
Baalam the worshipper of B'Allah!
and Baalak is the king of B'Allah.
Muslims pagans in 1450 BC!!

 

[shunyadragon]

Abraham was a Bedouin and a "friend of God" not a Jew.



Click on the picture to enlarge

The problem with Biblical references, maps, wishful thinking of genetic purity, and historical references of lineages the genetic differentiation between Jews and non-Jews among the Semitic peoples of the Middle East is not as clearly defined as people idealistically would idealistically believe. Genetically Bedouins,Palestinians, and other populations in the Middle East are not clearly different from other populations that call themselves Jews. Whether Abraham was Jewish or not is rather nebulous unanswerable question. The traditional claim is reasonable, because of the lack of a clear lineage differentiation as to who is a Jew or not.

There are lineages of Jews that can be traced back to mixed tribal lineages of the Chalcolithic Palestine region. Historically Hebrews were pastoral Canaanite/Ugarit hill tribe, and genetically related to those populations.

Read the following reference to find that any effort to specifically define Jews as even a distinctive ethnic minority fails. Some traditional Jewish families do have clear, but definitely not pure, genetic lineages that can be traced, but still like other Jewish populations, with relationships with other non-Jewish populations of the Middle East.

Genetic studies on Jews - Wikipedia

 

[Shad]

See Bilaam in Numbers 22-24. He wasn't a Jewish prophet, was he?

He was a gentile yes. As per other arguments gentile prophecy was removed after Bilaam thus Muhammad couldn't be a prophet

 

[sooda]

The problem with Biblical references, maps, wishful thinking of genetic purity, and historical references of lineages the genetic differentiation between Jews and non-Jews among the Semitic peoples of the Middle East is not as clearly defined as people idealistically what. Genetically Bedouins,Palestinians, and other populations in the Middle East are not clearly different form other populations that call themselves Jews. Whether Abraham was Jewish or not is rather nebulous unanswerable question. The traditional claim is reasonable, because of the lack of a clear lineage differentiation as to who is a Jew or not.

There are lineages of Jews that can be traced back to mixed tribal lineages of the Chalcolithic Palestine region. Historically Hebrews were pastoral Canaanite/Ugarit hill tribe, and genetically related to those populations.

Read the following reference to find that any effort to specifically define Jews as even a distinctive ethnic minority fails. Some traditional Jewish families do have clear, but definitely not pure, genetic lineages that can be traced, but still like other Jewish populations, with relationships with other non-Jewish populations of the Middle East.

Genetic studies on Jews - Wikipedia

Right.. They are all related ..

There is a Horite-Kenite connection with Abraham, but I think they were related to Syrians and people of the Levant and northern Arabia.

 

[shunyadragon]

He was a gentile yes. As per other arguments gentile prophecy was removed after Bilaam thus Muhammad couldn't be a prophet

This is an illusion of delusions as to who is a Jew of not based on a religious agenda, does not match up to the genetic evidence.

 

[sooda]

No, Baalam was working for Baalak.
Look at the names
Baalam the worshipper of B'Allah!
and Baalak is the king of B'Allah.
Muslims pagans in 1450 BC!!

You didn't understand the explanation...????

All the patriarchs who submitted to God are considered Muslim.

 

[sooda]

This is an illusion of delusions as to who is a Jew of not based on a religious agenda, does not match up to the genetic evidence.

Abraham's mother was a Horite.

Horites



Meaning: cave-men; cave-dwellers

a race of troglodytes (cave dwellers) who lived in the limestone caves which abounded in Edom (Petra and surrounding land)

Their ancestor was “Seir,” who probably gave his name to the district where he lived. They were a branch of the Hivites (Genesis 14:6; 36:20-30; 1 Chronicles 1:38-39).

They were dispossessed by the descendants of Esau. They gradually became extinct as a people (Deuteronomy 2:12-22).

David's Kenite-Horite Blood

According to the Talmud, David's maternal grandfather was Adael. Adael is the masculine equivalent of the name Adah. Adah was the wife of Lamech the Elder and the mother of Jubal and Jabal (Gen. 4). This is also the name of one of Esau the Elder’s wives. So Adah and Adael is a family name traced back to the lines of Cain and Seth. Both versions of the name are traceable to the Kenites, the descendants of Cain who intermarried with Seth's line.

So David had Kenite blood. This means that he is a descendant of Cain/Kain and since the lines of Kain and Seth exclusively intermarried, he was also a descendant of Seth. This explains why David sent the spoils of war to the cities of Judah and to the Kenites (1 Samuel 30:29).

David's ancestry is traced through Tamar, the daughter of a Horite priest. She was probably at her father's shrine when she tricked Judah into impregnating her.

When Judah discovered that she was pregnant, he ordered that she be burned to death. This was the Levitical punishment for daughters of priests who committed adultery or harlotry. Chastity was of the first order among the priestly lines, both for males and females.

Horite ruler-priests married only the daughters of priests. Some of those priests were metal-working descendants of Kain, called Kenites.

Jethro, Moses' fathers-in-law, may have been a Kenite. He is called the "priest of Midian." Jethro was not his name but rather his title. He was a Yatir that proclaimed the laws of YHWH as they pertained to the husbandry of sheep and goats. Yatir is from the Hebrew YTR which is the 3-letter root of Jethro. According to Biblical Anthropologist Susan Burns, the Yatir was a priest of nomadic sheep herders. Although not all the priestly clans were metalworkers, all the priestly clans kept herds.

Midian was one of the Abraham's sons by his cousin-wife Keturah. Likely, Aaron was skilled in metal work which explains why the Israelites appealed to him to build the golden calf.

Rahab of Jericho was the wife of Salmon the Horite, the Son of Hur (Hor). Salmon is called the "father of Bethlehem" in 1 Chronicles 2:54. Rahab became the grandmother of Boaz who married Ruth. Salmon (also Salma or Solomon) is a Horite name and is associated with Bethlehem (1 Chronicles 2:51). This connection of the Jews to the ancient Horites is why Jews call their parents horim.

 

[Shad]

This is an illusion of delusions as to who is a Jew of not based on a religious agenda, does not match up to the genetic evidence.

This response has nothing to do with my comment. It is just hand waving.

My comment is from Rabbi commentary ergo a religious view point. A view point from the Jews. Do note I never said they were right. I was posting arguments against prophethood of Muhammad from a view point. These views pre-date Muhammad in core premises.

Let me know when Muhammad's DNA is tested.

 

[shunyadragon]

This response has nothing to do with my comment. It is just hand waving.

My comment is from Rabbi commentary ergo a religious view point. A view point from the Jews. Do note I never said they were right. I was posting arguments against prophethood of Muhammad from a view point. These views pre-date Muhammad in core premises.

Let me know when Muhammad's DNA is tested.

First your post was brief and needed clarification. It was worded as to reflect your claim.

The problem with this is it is a highly religiously based bias to reject religions that come after their own, and their traditional claims do not stand up to genetic research scrutiny.

 

[Shad]

First your post was brief and needed clarification. It was worded as to reflect your claim.

I was communicating a claim not my own claim.

The problem with this is it is a highly religiously based bias to reject religions that come after their own, and their traditional claims do not stand up to genetic research scrutiny.

Again let me know when Muhammad's DNA has been tested. You can not reference genetics without evidence from genetics to support it. Otherwise you are just hand waving.

Ironic isn't it? The same argument is used against your religion by Muslims.

 

[LightofTruth]

Jews or Judeans were descendants of Abraham's great-grandson Judah.
So, the short answer is no, he couldn't have been !

Literally the term Jew means : Of Judah. A person belonging to the tribe of Judah.
The name is not used in the Bible account prior to the fall of the ten-tribe kingdom of Israel where the southern kingdom was called Judah, and the people were called sons of Judah or the tribe of the sons of Judah.

The term Jew first appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jeremiah’s day, at Jeremiah 34:9, and also in Esther concerning Mordecai the Jew, and in the postcaptivity prophecy of Zechariah 8:23.
Later all Israelites who held to the tribe of Judah because of their exclusive worship to Jehovah were also called Jews or Judeans, and the name is so used in the Christian Greek Scriptures.

This elicits another question: Who is a jew today ?
It seems it depend on who you ask.

After the exile (from Babylon) the name was applied to any Israelites returning to Israel (Ezr 4:12; 6:7; Ne 1:2; 5:17) and, finally, to all Hebrews throughout the world, to distinguish them from the Gentile nations. (Es 3:6; 9:20)

Gentiles who accepted the Jewish faith and became circumcised proselytes declared themselves Jews as well.
The Israeli Supreme Court (1970). held,that anyone was a Jew who claimed to be a Jew, even though he was an atheist and not born of a Jewish mother.
However, Orthodox Jewry maintains that Jewish religion and nationality are inseparable.
Tthe Knesset, (Israeli parliament), declared that the definition of Jewishness in the Halakah, be henceforth declared the only legal one. (The Halakah defines a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism). This was made law on March 10, 1970.

Interestingly, The apostle Paul, in arguing that the Jews were mistaken in their pride of fleshly descent and in relying on the works of the Law to find favor with God, said: “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” (Ro 2:28,29)
This argument parallels his reasoning in Romans chapter 4, that the true seed of Abraham are those with the faith of Abraham not fleshly lineage.

Does it matter ?
Maybe Christ's words puts some perspective on it :“ there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scyth′ian, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things in all”.(Col 3”10)

Shem is a father of Christ. Shem is also the father of all the children of Eber or Heber. Heber is a father of Abraham. Abraham is therefore a Hebrew being from Heber.
Shem, a son of Noah, is the father of the Hebrews.

 

[sooda]

Nope!
Abraham was not a Jew, but called a Hebrew because of his forfather Heber.
Abraham was also not a Muslim!
He left the pagan lands where Ba'allah, Allat and manat was worshipped.
Hubal was the religion of the fathers of the Arabs, who is simply called, Allah of the Moon!
This is the first ancient statue of Hu'Ba'Allah that was discovered in hazor in the 60's dating to 1400 BC
Note the pagan worship identified by the Pagan Moon crest on his chest. islam still uses it, and they dont know where it comes from.
Abraham worshipped YHWH, not Allah.
On YHWH's instruction these idols were destroyed by the sword, notice the decapitation of Allah's head by the hands of Joshua!
Anyhow, If I were to give you islamic evidence that Abraham was never a Muslim, he could not utter the shahadah.
because Muhammad was not born for 2 200 years!

View attachment 30781

Abraham's father was terah. He was a horite which makes him a canaanite.

 

[sooda]

Shem is a father of Christ. Shem is also the father of all the children of Eber or Heber. Heber is a father of Abraham. Abraham is therefore a Hebrew being from Heber.
Shem, a son of Noah, is the father of the Hebrews.

Terah not Heber.

 

[leov]

Jews or Judeans were descendants of Abraham's great-grandson Judah.
So, the short answer is no, he couldn't have been !

Literally the term Jew means : Of Judah. A person belonging to the tribe of Judah.
The name is not used in the Bible account prior to the fall of the ten-tribe kingdom of Israel where the southern kingdom was called Judah, and the people were called sons of Judah or the tribe of the sons of Judah.

The term Jew first appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jeremiah’s day, at Jeremiah 34:9, and also in Esther concerning Mordecai the Jew, and in the postcaptivity prophecy of Zechariah 8:23.
Later all Israelites who held to the tribe of Judah because of their exclusive worship to Jehovah were also called Jews or Judeans, and the name is so used in the Christian Greek Scriptures.

This elicits another question: Who is a jew today ?
It seems it depend on who you ask.

After the exile (from Babylon) the name was applied to any Israelites returning to Israel (Ezr 4:12; 6:7; Ne 1:2; 5:17) and, finally, to all Hebrews throughout the world, to distinguish them from the Gentile nations. (Es 3:6; 9:20)

Gentiles who accepted the Jewish faith and became circumcised proselytes declared themselves Jews as well.
The Israeli Supreme Court (1970). held,that anyone was a Jew who claimed to be a Jew, even though he was an atheist and not born of a Jewish mother.
However, Orthodox Jewry maintains that Jewish religion and nationality are inseparable.
Tthe Knesset, (Israeli parliament), declared that the definition of Jewishness in the Halakah, be henceforth declared the only legal one. (The Halakah defines a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism). This was made law on March 10, 1970.

Interestingly, The apostle Paul, in arguing that the Jews were mistaken in their pride of fleshly descent and in relying on the works of the Law to find favor with God, said: “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” (Ro 2:28,29)
This argument parallels his reasoning in Romans chapter 4, that the true seed of Abraham are those with the faith of Abraham not fleshly lineage.

Does it matter ?
Maybe Christ's words puts some perspective on it :“ there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scyth′ian, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things in all”.(Col 3”10)

He was one of Israel, Jew limited by tribe of Judah.
"The One Who Sees God" - Israel According to Philo of Alexandria

 

[LightofTruth]

Terah not Heber.

Reu or Ragau in Genesis was the son of Peleg and the father of Serug, thus being Abraham's great-great-grandfather. One of Heber's sons was Peleg. Abraham comes from Heber and Shem.

 

[sooda]

Reu or Ragau in Genesis was the son of Peleg and the father of Serug, thus being Abraham's great-great-grandfather. One of Heber's sons was Peleg

Abraham's father and mother were Horites (Canaanites)..