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Was Abraham a Jew ?

Neuropteron

Active Member
Jews or Judeans were descendants of Abraham's great-grandson Judah.
So, the short answer is no, he couldn't have been !

Literally the term Jew means : Of Judah. A person belonging to the tribe of Judah.
The name is not used in the Bible account prior to the fall of the ten-tribe kingdom of Israel where the southern kingdom was called Judah, and the people were called sons of Judah or the tribe of the sons of Judah.

The term Jew first appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jeremiah’s day, at Jeremiah 34:9, and also in Esther concerning Mordecai the Jew, and in the postcaptivity prophecy of Zechariah 8:23.
Later all Israelites who held to the tribe of Judah because of their exclusive worship to Jehovah were also called Jews or Judeans, and the name is so used in the Christian Greek Scriptures.

This elicits another question: Who is a jew today ?
It seems it depend on who you ask.

After the exile (from Babylon) the name was applied to any Israelites returning to Israel (Ezr 4:12; 6:7; Ne 1:2; 5:17) and, finally, to all Hebrews throughout the world, to distinguish them from the Gentile nations. (Es 3:6; 9:20)

Gentiles who accepted the Jewish faith and became circumcised proselytes declared themselves Jews as well.
The Israeli Supreme Court (1970). held,that anyone was a Jew who claimed to be a Jew, even though he was an atheist and not born of a Jewish mother.
However, Orthodox Jewry maintains that Jewish religion and nationality are inseparable.
Tthe Knesset, (Israeli parliament), declared that the definition of Jewishness in the Halakah, be henceforth declared the only legal one. (The Halakah defines a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism). This was made law on March 10, 1970.

Interestingly, The apostle Paul, in arguing that the Jews were mistaken in their pride of fleshly descent and in relying on the works of the Law to find favor with God, said: “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” (Ro 2:28,29)
This argument parallels his reasoning in Romans chapter 4, that the true seed of Abraham are those with the faith of Abraham not fleshly lineage.

Does it matter ?
Maybe Christ's words puts some perspective on it :“ there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scyth′ian, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things in all”.(Col 3”10)
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Jews or Judeans were descendants of Abraham's great-grandson Judah.
So, the short answer is no, he couldn't have been !

Literally the term Jew means : Of Judah. A person belonging to the tribe of Judah.
The name is not used in the Bible account prior to the fall of the ten-tribe kingdom of Israel where the southern kingdom was called Judah, and the people were called sons of Judah or the tribe of the sons of Judah.

The term Jew first appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jeremiah’s day, at Jeremiah 34:9, and also in Esther concerning Mordecai the Jew, and in the postcaptivity prophecy of Zechariah 8:23.
Later all Israelites who held to the tribe of Judah because of their exclusive worship to Jehovah were also called Jews or Judeans, and the name is so used in the Christian Greek Scriptures.

This elicits another question: Who is a jew today ?
It seems it depend on who you ask.

After the exile (from Babylon) the name was applied to any Israelites returning to Israel (Ezr 4:12; 6:7; Ne 1:2; 5:17) and, finally, to all Hebrews throughout the world, to distinguish them from the Gentile nations. (Es 3:6; 9:20)

Gentiles who accepted the Jewish faith and became circumcised proselytes declared themselves Jews as well.
The Israeli Supreme Court (1970). held,that anyone was a Jew who claimed to be a Jew, even though he was an atheist and not born of a Jewish mother.
However, Orthodox Jewry maintains that Jewish religion and nationality are inseparable.
Tthe Knesset, (Israeli parliament), declared that the definition of Jewishness in the Halakah, be henceforth declared the only legal one. (The Halakah defines a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism). This was made law on March 10, 1970.

Interestingly, The apostle Paul, in arguing that the Jews were mistaken in their pride of fleshly descent and in relying on the works of the Law to find favor with God, said: “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” (Ro 2:28,29)
This argument parallels his reasoning in Romans chapter 4, that the true seed of Abraham are those with the faith of Abraham not fleshly lineage.

Does it matter ?
Maybe Christ's words puts some perspective on it :“ there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scyth′ian, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things in all”.(Col 3”10)
And yet JWs argue Muhammad couldn’t be a Prophet because He wasn’t a Jew, perhaps they should exclude Abraham as well?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
And yet JWs argue Muhammad couldn’t be a Prophet because He wasn’t a Jew
Where?

If that was said...it is wrong.

Job wasn't an Israelite...neither was Isaac .
They were all worshippers of Jehovah/Yahweh, though.

Really, Jehovah could use anyone He wanted for such a purpose... reference Balaam. He was not a lasting prophet, only used once, and that was to thwart Balaam's real purpose.

Goodnight.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Where?

If that was said...it is wrong.

Job wasn't an Israelite...neither was Isaac .
They were all worshippers of Jehovah/Yahweh, though.

Really, Jehovah could use anyone He wanted for such a purpose... reference Balaam. He was not a lasting prophet, only used once, and that was to thwart Balaam's real purpose.

Goodnight.
Agreed that it is wrong, but Deeje says here: Love For All, Hatred For None "salvation is of the Jews", to argue Muhammad couldn't have been a Prophet, but Abraham wasn't a Jew.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Interestingly, The apostle Paul, in arguing that the Jews were mistaken in their pride of fleshly descent

In Romans chapter three Paul says that he values physical circumcision for those who keep the oracles of God. It seems he sees a necessity for physical circumcision but not for everyone. He's just making an argument that those in Christ are adopted legitimate children of Abraham. While he doesn't think gentiles need be circumcised to be in Christ, it appears in Romans 3 that he still thinks that there should be circumcised people who maintain the scripture. There is a certain logic to that which appeals to me, although ouch. I don't think anybody wants to be physically circumcised; but I can see there being a very grave responsibility involved. Why shouldn't there be a price to pay for that honor? Its possibly what he intends rather than a complete denigration of physical circumcision. Also the law can't be broken, and anyone who teaches that it should be broken is on very thin ice.

Judaism appears to enforce biological diversity, partly explaining its incompatibility with Hitler's aims among other things. Physically Jews are mutts. Paul and Jesus both get their ideas of spiritual children from Judaism. While having children is important its not their genes that are important. In Judaism ideally there is neither slave nor free, so I think Paul is using this not in contrast to Judaism but to argue that Christ is an authentic expression of Judaism. His comment that Jews must be so inwardly is an innate part of the law which commands circumcision of heart. He is not the first Jew to make this argument nor will he be the last.

Jews or Judeans were descendants of Abraham's great-grandson Judah.
So, the short answer is no, he couldn't have been !
In a mythological sense the Jews are inside Abraham as are we, so he is a Jew and a Christian, too. The term is 'Bosom of Abraham'. We're in the bosom of Abraham. Its not a genetic thing so much as ideological. Abraham practices peace with absolute commitment. He commits all of his family, his goods. He sponsors peace in every way, even refusing to take vengeance over rape. Jacob rebukes even the anger of his son over this who has a very legitimate complaint when his sister is raped, and that also reflects the severity of Abraham's commitment to preserving peace. Anybody who would be a son of Abraham must make an equally strong commitment, or they are not his. Abram goes to war, but Abraham the star father might not. It debated sometimes, isn't it?

This elicits another question: Who is a jew today ?
It seems it depend on who you ask.
The main and the best thing about that claim to be Jewish is that it does not exclude anyone else from being of Abraham. It is a humble claim, not one that says "You can't be of Abraham. Only we are."
 

Komori

Member
"Abraham was neither Jew nor Christian, but one inclining towards the truth, one who submitted (unto God), and he was not one of the polytheists" (Qur'an 3:67).
 

sooda

Veteran Member
In Romans chapter three Paul says that he values physical circumcision for those who keep the oracles of God. It seems he sees a necessity for physical circumcision but not for everyone. He's just making an argument that those in Christ are adopted legitimate children of Abraham. While he doesn't think gentiles need be circumcised to be in Christ, it appears in Romans 3 that he still thinks that there should be circumcised people who maintain the scripture. There is a certain logic to that which appeals to me, although ouch. I don't think anybody wants to be physically circumcised; but I can see there being a very grave responsibility involved. Why shouldn't there be a price to pay for that honor? Its possibly what he intends rather than a complete denigration of physical circumcision. Also the law can't be broken, and anyone who teaches that it should be broken is on very thin ice.

Judaism appears to enforce biological diversity, partly explaining its incompatibility with Hitler's aims among other things. Physically Jews are mutts. Paul and Jesus both get their ideas of spiritual children from Judaism. While having children is important its not their genes that are important. In Judaism ideally there is neither slave nor free, so I think Paul is using this not in contrast to Judaism but to argue that Christ is an authentic expression of Judaism. His comment that Jews must be so inwardly is an innate part of the law which commands circumcision of heart. He is not the first Jew to make this argument nor will he be the last.

In a mythological sense the Jews are inside Abraham as are we, so he is a Jew and a Christian, too. The term is 'Bosom of Abraham'. We're in the bosom of Abraham. Its not a genetic thing so much as ideological. Abraham practices peace with absolute commitment. He commits all of his family, his goods. He sponsors peace in every way, even refusing to take vengeance over rape. Jacob rebukes even the anger of his son over this who has a very legitimate complaint when his sister is raped, and that also reflects the severity of Abraham's commitment to preserving peace. Anybody who would be a son of Abraham must make an equally strong commitment, or they are not his. Abram goes to war, but Abraham the star father might not. It debated sometimes, isn't it?

The main and the best thing about that claim to be Jewish is that it does not exclude anyone else from being of Abraham. It is a humble claim, not one that says "You can't be of Abraham. Only we are."

https://www.enterthebible.org/Contr...urcebox.aspx?selected_rid=1577&original_id=20

Are you talking about the rape of Dinah? They circumcised them and killed them. Then they plundered the city and stole their livestock.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Jews or Judeans were descendants of Abraham's great-grandson Judah.
So, the short answer is no, he couldn't have been !
I think you have misunderstood this.

He was the first Jew and the father to the 12,13 or 14 tribes (depending where in the bible you are).

Genesis 17
1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.
2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”
10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.
14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”
15 God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.
26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day.

27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him.

Revelation 7
5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

dee745e03e9a232ddf11518f3718c966.jpg
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Are you talking about the rape of Dinah? They circumcised them and killed them. Then they plundered the city and stole their livestock.
Yes, and the point of the story is that they are wrong and at odds with Jacob over this and by extension at odds with Abraham. Jacob goes even further and rebukes the fierce fury of Simeon and Levi. (Genesis 49:1) Not only their actions but their anger he opposes. In fact they have been at odds with him over this, because their sister has been raped yet Jacob does not attack Shechem. As a man I completely understand their gripe, and Jacob's commitment to peace seems quite difficult. He chooses not to be furious. When I read this story I was furious.

By the way when Jesus calls James and John 'Sons of Thunder' maybe he is alluding to this story where Jacob calls those two brothers of the sword. The nickname is probably not complementary. He is not calling them sons of Abraham but something else.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Yes, and the point of the story is that they are wrong and at odds with Jacob over this and by extension at odds with Abraham. Jacob goes even further and rebukes the fierce fury of Simeon and Levi. (Genesis 49:1) Not only their actions but their anger he opposes. In fact they have been at odds with him over this, because their sister has been raped yet Jacob does not attack Shechem.

As a man I completely understand their gripe, and Jacob's commitment to peace seems quite difficult. He chooses not to be furious. When I read this story I was furious.

By the way when Jesus calls James and John 'Sons of Thunder' maybe he is alluding to this story where Jacob calls those two brothers of the sword. The nickname is probably not complementary. He is not calling them sons of Abraham but something else.

LOLOL

Jacob's Sword and Bow | IFCJ
Daily Devotionals Archive | IFCJjacobs-sword-and-bow
Although there is no doubt that Jacob bequeathed the city of Shechem to Joseph and his descendents forever, we do have to question how Jacob received this land. While Jacob said that he captured it with his own sword and bow, the Bible clearly tells us that Simeon and Levi captured the city after the inhabitants disgraced their sister Dinah (Genesis 34:25).
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Was Abraham a Jew ?

No, he was not a Jew. This term "Jew" was coined much later. If Abraham was asked this question, he would have denied it:

[3:68]
مَا کَانَ اِبۡرٰہِیۡمُ یَہُوۡدِیًّا وَّ لَا نَصۡرَانِیًّا وَّ لٰکِنۡ کَانَ حَنِیۡفًا مُّسۡلِمًا ؕ وَ مَا کَانَ مِنَ الۡمُشۡرِکِیۡنَ ﴿۶۸﴾
Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was ever inclined to God and obedient to Him, and he was not of those who associate gods with God.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 3: Aal-e-`Imran

Regards

 

calm

Active Member
Everybody was circumcised.. Arabs, Egyptians, Canaanites.
Yes, but the circumcision of the Hebrews is special it is a covenant with God.

Genesis 17:9
And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.
12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring,
13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.
14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Yes, but the circumcision of the Hebrews is special it is a covenant with God.

Genesis 17:9
And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.
12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring,
13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.
14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.

The sons of Abraham: Isaac and Ishmael.

The sons born to Keturah, Abraham’s Arab wife: Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Abraham was the first Hebrew.
He was the first to make the covenant with God by circumcising himself.(Genesis 17:24)

Abraham was probably a Marsh Arab if he existed at all... Clearly he was a Bedouin.
 

Vaziri

Islamic Philosopher
Jews or Judeans were descendants of Abraham's great-grandson Judah.
So, the short answer is no, he couldn't have been !

Literally the term Jew means : Of Judah. A person belonging to the tribe of Judah.
The name is not used in the Bible account prior to the fall of the ten-tribe kingdom of Israel where the southern kingdom was called Judah, and the people were called sons of Judah or the tribe of the sons of Judah.

The term Jew first appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jeremiah’s day, at Jeremiah 34:9, and also in Esther concerning Mordecai the Jew, and in the postcaptivity prophecy of Zechariah 8:23.
Later all Israelites who held to the tribe of Judah because of their exclusive worship to Jehovah were also called Jews or Judeans, and the name is so used in the Christian Greek Scriptures.

This elicits another question: Who is a jew today ?
It seems it depend on who you ask.

After the exile (from Babylon) the name was applied to any Israelites returning to Israel (Ezr 4:12; 6:7; Ne 1:2; 5:17) and, finally, to all Hebrews throughout the world, to distinguish them from the Gentile nations. (Es 3:6; 9:20)

Gentiles who accepted the Jewish faith and became circumcised proselytes declared themselves Jews as well.
The Israeli Supreme Court (1970). held,that anyone was a Jew who claimed to be a Jew, even though he was an atheist and not born of a Jewish mother.
However, Orthodox Jewry maintains that Jewish religion and nationality are inseparable.
Tthe Knesset, (Israeli parliament), declared that the definition of Jewishness in the Halakah, be henceforth declared the only legal one. (The Halakah defines a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism). This was made law on March 10, 1970.

Interestingly, The apostle Paul, in arguing that the Jews were mistaken in their pride of fleshly descent and in relying on the works of the Law to find favor with God, said: “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” (Ro 2:28,29)
This argument parallels his reasoning in Romans chapter 4, that the true seed of Abraham are those with the faith of Abraham not fleshly lineage.

Does it matter ?
Maybe Christ's words puts some perspective on it :“ there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scyth′ian, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things in all”.(Col 3”10)

Abraham (pbuh) was a Muslim. Islam is looked at as the natural state between man and God. He believed in one true God.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Abraham (pbuh) was a Muslim. Islam is looked at as the natural state between man and God. He believed in one true God.

Well, perhaps you should explain why in Islam even Adam is considered a Muslim.

There are lots of versions of the Abraham story.

After defeating the Assyrians, Abraham appears to have returned to Egypt. At least one source has him teaching astrology there at the City of the Sun, Heliopolis, for 20 years. Only upon the accension of Thutmosis III under the watchful eye of his aunt, Hatshepsut, did Abraham again leave Egypt.

Five: Abraham and the Kingdom of Ugarit
 

Vaziri

Islamic Philosopher
Well, perhaps you should explain why in Islam even Adam is considered a Muslim.

There are lots of versions of the Abraham story.

After defeating the Assyrians, Abraham appears to have returned to Egypt. At least one source has him teaching astrology there at the City of the Sun, Heliopolis, for 20 years. Only upon the accension of Thutmosis III under the watchful eye of his aunt, Hatshepsut, did Abraham again leave Egypt.

Five: Abraham and the Kingdom of Ugarit

Well, for the same reason I believe Abraham was Muslim.. because its the original state so it is applicable to Adam as well. In Islam we believe in what is called Fitrah, which basically means that ever single being that has been given life is Muslim. But since we are all products of our social environment it is indeed society itself that can change a person.
Example: If a baby is born in say a Hindu home.. We believe the baby is born in Fitrah which makes him a Muslim and in this case it will be his parents who change him.

So it doesn't matter what story of Abraham or where he went.. He would have still been Muslim.. Just like all Prophets from Adam to Muhammad. Peace be upon them all.
 
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