What is the Trinity?

[David T]

I thought I should open a thread to discuss the Trinity to clarify the details to benefit my own thinking. I love to discuss such topics on forums like this, to get all the information sorted, and all the arguments noted.

The argument against the Trinity goes as such.

Trinitarians believe in 3 gods. The Trinity was concocted by Constantine, or some even claim that Paul invented the Trinity. The Unitarians again, they claim that the Trinity derived from Egyptian or Indian paganism.

Be as it may, I believe in the Trinity where God the Father is revealed as YHWH, He has a Word, who we know as Jesus, and a Spirit we call the Holy Ghost.

I am quite convinced from the Bible that YHWH is a Trinity, and to me it does not mean a polytheistic god at all.
Please note, If I believed the Trinity are 3 gods, I will be the first to condemn this concept.

With about 4 questions to anyone who claims the Trinity is inexplainable, and confusing to understand, everyone will be able to understand the Trinity.

Here is the first question.

Is there anything in the Universe that can be compared with the Trinity?

Christian apologists say it is not possible, because if there is anything we can compare with God, we will obviously have a second god.

It is a reasonable claim, but what does God say, can we compare Him to anything?

Three angels on a pin..

 

[Sand Dancer]

Is there anything in the Universe that can be compared with the Trinity?

Christian apologists say it is not possible, because if there is anything we can compare with God, we will obviously have a second god.

It is a reasonable claim, but what does God say, can we compare Him to anything?

The trinity was taken from previous religions, where it consisted of a triple goddess in goddess worship, trimurti (three forms) in Hinduism with the aspects being creation, maintenance and destruction.

 

[Spartan]

First, who? The Church Fathers.

Second, a clear example of editing ot the gospel Matthew ending to support the Trinity. Matthew 28:18 was added and edited.to include ' . . . in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.'

From: Matthew 28:19 - A Verse Used to Support the Trinity | BiblicalUnitarian.com

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (NIV)

1. Eusebius (c. 260—c. 340) was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” Although he wrote prolifically, his most celebrated work is his Ecclesiastical History, a history of the Church from the Apostolic period until his own time. Today it is still the principal work on the history of the Church at that time. Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. He never quotes it as it appears today in modern Bibles, but always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.” For example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:

But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”

Again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:

What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.”

Eusebius was present at the council of Nicaea and was involved in the debates about Arian teaching and whether Christ was God or a creation of God. We feel confident that if the manuscripts he had in front of him read “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” he would never have quoted it as “in my name.” Thus, we believe that the earliest manuscripts read “in my name,” and that the phrase was enlarged to reflect the orthodox position as Trinitarian influence spread.

2. If Matthew 28:19 is accurate as it stands in modern versions, then there is no explanation for the apparent disobedience of the apostles, since there is not a single occurrence of them baptizing anyone according to that formula. All the records in the New Testament show that people were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus, just as the text Eusebius was quoting said to do. In other words, the “name of Jesus Christ,” i.e., all that he represents, is the element, or substance, into which people were figuratively “baptized.” “Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins’” (Acts 2:38). “They had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 8:16). “So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ” (Acts 10:48). “On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 19:5). We cannot imagine any reason for the Apostles and others in Acts to disobey a command of the risen Christ. To us, it seems clear that Christ said to baptize in his name, and that was what the early Church did."

more to follow . . .

The Trinity was already spoken of frequently prior to the Council of Nicea.

Early Trinitarian Quotes | CARM.org

In addition, Eusebius quoted Caius as follows: "For who is ignorant of the books of Irenaeus and Melito, and the rest, which declare Christ to be God and man? All the Psalms too, and hymns of brethren - which have been written from the beginning - celebrate Christ the Word of God, ascribing divinity to Him."

 

[shunyadragon]

The Trinity was already spoken of frequently prior to the Council of Nicea.

Early Trinitarian Quotes | CARM.org

In addition, Eusebius quoted Caius as follows: "For who is ignorant of the books of Irenaeus and Melito, and the rest, which declare Christ to be God and man? All the Psalms too, and hymns of brethren - which have been written from the beginning - celebrate Christ the Word of God, ascribing divinity to Him."

These citation in your reference are not early references. They are references mostly during the time, and after the gospels were being edited, redacted, and compiled. The Council of Niea and the other councils simply certified what the Church Fathers believed.

In response to your request the point of my response was clear that there are specific citations in the New Testament that were edited to support the Trinity. There were at least several different beliefs concerning the nature and relationship of Jesus Christ and God.

The Psalms nor anywhere in the OT can be referenced to specifically support the Trinity.

 

[Neutral Name]

I thought I should open a thread to discuss the Trinity to clarify the details to benefit my own thinking. I love to discuss such topics on forums like this, to get all the information sorted, and all the arguments noted.

The argument against the Trinity goes as such.

Trinitarians believe in 3 gods. The Trinity was concocted by Constantine, or some even claim that Paul invented the Trinity. The Unitarians again, they claim that the Trinity derived from Egyptian or Indian paganism.

Be as it may, I believe in the Trinity where God the Father is revealed as YHWH, He has a Word, who we know as Jesus, and a Spirit we call the Holy Ghost.

I am quite convinced from the Bible that YHWH is a Trinity, and to me it does not mean a polytheistic god at all.
Please note, If I believed the Trinity are 3 gods, I will be the first to condemn this concept.

With about 4 questions to anyone who claims the Trinity is inexplainable, and confusing to understand, everyone will be able to understand the Trinity.

Here is the first question.

Is there anything in the Universe that can be compared with the Trinity?

Christian apologists say it is not possible, because if there is anything we can compare with God, we will obviously have a second god.

It is a reasonable claim, but what does God say, can we compare Him to anything?

I like to say that the trinity is like water. Water can flow or freeze or steam, 3 states. It is still water no matter which form it is in. So, God is still God not matter which form God is in, father, son or holy spirit.

 

[shunyadragon]

I like to say that the trinity is like water. Water can flow or freeze or steam, 3 states. It is still water no matter which form it is in. So, God is still God not matter which form God is in, father, son or holy spirit.

. . . water remains water and not three distinct persons, ah or Gods as defined by the Trinity.

Biblically Jesus Christ remains a separate God seated at the right hand of God the Father.

 

[MJFlores]

Is there anything in the Universe that can be compared with the Trinity?

Christian apologists say it is not possible, because if there is anything we can compare with God, we will obviously have a second god.

It is a reasonable claim, but what does God say, can we compare Him to anything?

 

[SugarOcean]

I thought I should open a thread to discuss the Trinity to clarify the details to benefit my own thinking. I love to discuss such topics on forums like this, to get all the information sorted, and all the arguments noted.

The argument against the Trinity goes as such.

Trinitarians believe in 3 gods. The Trinity was concocted by Constantine, or some even claim that Paul invented the Trinity. The Unitarians again, they claim that the Trinity derived from Egyptian or Indian paganism.

Be as it may, I believe in the Trinity where God the Father is revealed as YHWH, He has a Word, who we know as Jesus, and a Spirit we call the Holy Ghost.

I am quite convinced from the Bible that YHWH is a Trinity, and to me it does not mean a polytheistic god at all.
Please note, If I believed the Trinity are 3 gods, I will be the first to condemn this concept.

With about 4 questions to anyone who claims the Trinity is inexplainable, and confusing to understand, everyone will be able to understand the Trinity.

Here is the first question.

Is there anything in the Universe that can be compared with the Trinity?

Christian apologists say it is not possible, because if there is anything we can compare with God, we will obviously have a second god.

It is a reasonable claim, but what does God say, can we compare Him to anything?

In short? Pagan Polytheism. Introduced into the Christian faith system by the Roman's and their Catholic church.
There is no trinity. "Hear oh Israel our God, our God is one."

28 Biblical Passages Which Explicitly Teach There is Only One God

 

[SA Huguenot]

One is:
God is the Tony Stark. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two different Iron man armours controlled by Tony who is at headquarters.

But you can not have one iron man suit working, whilst Tony stark is in his office.
Whilst the Father is in heaven, His Spirit can enter creation and his Word be creation.

 

[SA Huguenot]

I also found this online article which describes how Greek/Roman thought may have influenced the development of the trinity idea:

Greek Philosophy's Influence on the Trinity Doctrine

Wow!
So now we can go to Unitarians who dont believe in the Trinity, not the divinity of Jesus and use their so calle "Evidence " to disprove the Trinity?
Come on guys, Why not just go to the JW's, it might be easier and we know them all.
These guys say, "the Trinity is not to be found in the Bible..." yet they dont undrestand that everyone knows the "Word Trinity" is not in the Bible, but I will post verses from the Bible that clearly proves that the principal of th eTrinity is a description of God, and this IS IN THE bIBLE.

 

[SA Huguenot]

oH yehhhh!!!
Horus, Osiris and Isis.
The great Trinity from where AchariahS claims the Trinity developed from.
A mother, a Father and a Child.
These 3 are one god. (Oops no it isnt!!!)
They are immortal. (oh golly they all died!)
Horus was born a virgin birth. (Uhmmm, his mother was married to Osiris, and had plenty sex. She got hold of Osiris' corpse and used his Phalus to impregnate herself to get pregnant with Horus)

Please explain to me the Trinity in this regard!

There was no idea of a Trinity in Egypt, but the 8 gods ruling class!

Oh, then we have Brama, Vishnu and Shiva.
Theis is obviously where the Trinity originated from!!!
(O damn, it dates from the late 800' AD!, by that time the Trinity was already 700 years old.
So who coppied who?

And a nice picture of a 3 headed god dating from?
1840?
What does this say?

Please give me answers to why you think this is the origins of the Trinity.
I dont understand how you got to this!

 

[SA Huguenot]

In short? Pagan Polytheism. Introduced into the Christian faith system by the Roman's and their Catholic church.
There is no trinity. "Hear oh Israel our God, our God is one."

28 Biblical Passages Which Explicitly Teach There is Only One God

Oh wow!
Now we can use the Mormons to tell us that God is not a Trinity!
And we will show 28 verses that proves God is one.
Realy?
Is this the best argument?
Look at your own Quote from the Bible.
"Hear oh Israel our God, our God is one."
it actually translates to :
HEAR ISRAEL! YHWH YOUR GODS IS YHWH ONE!"
TRINITY!!!!

 

[SA Huguenot]

The trinity was taken from previous religions, where it consisted of a triple goddess in goddess worship, trimurti (three forms) in Hinduism with the aspects being creation, maintenance and destruction.

And the Trimurti dates from 800 AD!
So, who coppied who?

 

[SA Huguenot]

These citation in your reference are not early references. They are references mostly during the time, and after the gospels were being edited, redacted, and compiled. The Council of Niea and the other councils simply certified what the Church Fathers believed.

In response to your request the point of my response was clear that there are specific citations in the New Testament that were edited to support the Trinity. There were at least several different beliefs concerning the nature and relationship of Jesus Christ and God.

The Psalms nor anywhere in the OT can be referenced to specifically support the Trinity.

Mmmmm:
There are numerous examples.
I will post more later, but I love this one the most.
Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Isa 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Isa 48:14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Trinity!!!

 

[SA Huguenot]

I like to say that the trinity is like water. Water can flow or freeze or steam, 3 states. It is still water no matter which form it is in. So, God is still God not matter which form God is in, father, son or holy spirit.

But you can not have steam water and ice all as one.
steam does not have the characteristics of water, nor does Ice.

 

[Unguru]

If you're gonna have a Trinity, why stop at three?

 

[Unguru]

Why can't the Trinity be Moses, Mary and Judas? or add Joseph, John and Peter in as well.

 

[JJ50]

Mmmmm:
There are numerous examples.
I will post more later, but I love this one the most.
Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Isa 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Isa 48:14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Trinity!!!

They are just words in a book, nothing more..

 

[SugarOcean]

Oh wow!
Now we can use the Mormons to tell us that God is not a Trinity!
And we will show 28 verses that proves God is one.
Realy?
Is this the best argument?
Look at your own Quote from the Bible.
"Hear oh Israel our God, our God is one."
it actually translates to :
HEAR ISRAEL! YHWH YOUR GODS IS YHWH ONE!"
TRINITY!!!!

Not really.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 6 - Complete Jewish Bible
Deuteronomy 6:4 “Sh’ma, Yisra’el! Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad [Hear, Isra’el! Adonai our God, Adonai is one]

ADONAI Echad - The Lord is One | TLV Bible Society

The contribution of the Huguenots in South Africa​

 

[SA Huguenot]

lets see what the Bible tells us about the plurality of YHWH:
Not what some Trinitarian critisizer says.
In the Beginning, Elohim and His Spirit. (Gen 1: 1-3)
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Let Us make man. (Gen 1: 26)
Gen. 1:26, "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'"

Man became like US (Gen 3: 22)
Gen. 3:22, "Then the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever -'"
God came down to Sodom and Gomorra. (Gen 11: 5)
Gen 11:5 And Jehovah came down to see the city and the tower, which the sons of Adam had built.

Let US go down (Gen 11: 7)
Gen. 11:7, "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech."
in relation to:
The Lord [YHWH] said: I overthrew you as God overthrew Sodom (Amos 4:10-11)
Amo 4:10 I have sent a plague among you in the way of Egypt; I have killed your young men with the sword and your horses with captivity. And I have made the stench of your camps to come up even into your nostrils; yet you have not returned to Me, declares Jehovah.
Amo 4:11 I have overturned among you, as God overturned Sodom and Gomorrah, and you were like a firebrand plucked out of the burning; yet you have not returned to Me, declares Jehovah.

More later