Could you be wrong?

[Trailblazer]

So this is you stating that belief is warranted? That you're sure of this?

Yes, this is me stating that God is something that warrants belief, and the evidence is compelling to me.

This is you stating that I am of the wrong mindset or just being obstinate? And you are sure of this?

No, that was you who stated that... You said:

“For me to be wrong, it would have to mean that the evidence for God IS compelling, and it is just that I am of the wrong mindset, or obstinate, etc. Because that's the reason I don't believe the claims.”

Since I believe that the evidence for God IS compelling, I said “yep.”

No, I am not sure you are of the wrong mindset or obstinate. There might be another reason you do not SEE the evidence that I consider compelling.

And this is one of the reasons I couldn't worship unless there was a huge show, by God, of actually caring about the human race and the Earth enough to get over His (supposed) foolish obsession with "free will." God can want whatever He wants - even I, who do not believe in Him, understand this, because we humans are the same way. But what God wants DOES NOT HAVE TO BE SEEN AS "GOOD" TO ME. I can disagree with the things God is reported to have done. I can morally judge God and decide that He isn't worth my time, even if He does exist. And this is where I stand. Even if it is proven that God exists, it will only be proven to me that a gigantic butthole of a supreme being exists somewhere who is entirely foolhardy and incredibly dopey. Again, this is according to me, and what I am able to experience and understand.

What is wrong with having free will? Is it because it forces you to make choices? If we had no free will now could we do anything? We would just be God’s puppets on a string. Is that what you want? God does not want puppets. Humans are made in the image of God and God has free will so we have free will.

You are preaching to the choir. I do not like everything God does, but unlike you, I am stuck believing He exists so I try to figure out what God did what He did and does what He does and does not do what He does not do.

The main thing I do not like about what God did was create this material world and force us to live in it for 80 years or so. This world is a storehouse of suffering, at least for some of us.... Okay, then I am supposed to be grateful that I am finally released from that suffering after about 80 or more years, because then I get to go to a spiritual world (afterlife) that I know hardly anything about and I am stuck living there forever whether I like it or not – Yee-haw!

I have no complaints about how God communicates to humans – Messengers – I just wish they would say more about the afterlife, because after all, that is supposed to be the main act of the play and that is why believers are supposed to make all these sacrifices.

But, then again, how could God expect me to use anything besides the tools I have access to? If it takes incredibly cosmic vision in order to understand God's actual plan, and how certain parts of it are "good," then how can God ever expect me to understand given that I do not have such cosmic perspective on my vision? And if I have no hope of understanding, then I am the kind of person to not care about the thing that I am being told can't be understood. You say I "can't understand?" Fine... I won't even try then, because according to that "logic" (hahaha) there is absolutely no point.

The tools you have access to are your brain and you have access to what has been revealed by God through Baha’u’llah... That is the best way you will ever be able to understand what God did/does and why God did/does what God did/does.

I did not say you cannot understand. You CAN understand a lot, but not everything. Humans will never understand everything, but there is two reasonswhy everything is not revealed by the Messengers: (1) we do not need to know it, and/or (2) we could not understand it even if we knew.

But the problem is, all the "reasons" people say I should admit they are right "before the fact" all seem terribly inadequate to me. The only way I could "come to realize I was wrong" would be to actually receive some incontrovertible evidence. Besides that, there's absolutely no reason to believe. Everything that isn't incontrovertible that I have seen thus far looks like piles of dog crap to me.

I never said that you should admit that other people are right, I said you should admit that you “might” be wrong about God.

Evidence that is incontrovertible to me and other Baha’is is not incontrovertible to you because you do not interpret the evidence the same way, as evidence for God. Do you see the problem?

The only way you could ever change would be to admit you could be wrong about the evidence being like dog crap, but that would require you being open-minded enough to look at the evidence differently, or to look at it at all, if you have not looked. How can you know it is dog crap if you never looked at it? Have you just decided that if God communicates using a Messenger that is dog crap? There is nowhere to go with that because God ONLY communicates via Messengers.

What anyone thinks or is told will happen if God appears is irrelevant. No one can know this information. To have written anything with a definitive air about this subject is FOLLY. It is foolishness, paraded as wisdom. And what that last sentence should say is this:

How, then, can the godly be differentiated from nothing?

And the truthful answer is that it cannot.

No, nobody can know exactly what would happen if God appeared on earth. That passage has a meaning that apparently you did not understand, so let me explain it. If the full Essence of God showed upon earth, nobody would question that God exists. However, God’s power is so great that all created things would be completely destroyed if God “showed up.” Another thing that would happen if God showed up is that there would be no way to differentiate the godly people from the ungodly people because everyone would know God exists since it would be obvious if God showed up. With the “everyone” are ungodly people who do not deserve to know that God exists. If they were godly, they would be willing to do the necessary work in order to determine that God exists; they would not need God to show up and prove He exists.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

My dear what is this contradictory rhetoric?

What's contradictory about it?
Don't just claim it - explain it.

I got confused between this is water and no it is not.

Huh?

1+1 = 2 do you think some one will come to proof something different?

That's not an explanatory model (hypthesis/theory) of some phenomena of reality.

(We will show them our signs in the horizons and in themselves until they discern the truth) translated Quran.

Why would I care what the Quran has to say?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I believe in the afterlife - but I can’t explain the science of belief to you (not You personally)

You can't explain the science of "the afterlife", you mean.
And that's true off course. Just like one can't explain the science of alien abduction and rainbow eating fairies.

Do you believe your family loves you?

I know my family loves me.

Why do you believe your family loves you?

It is apparant from their commonly observable behaviour: the way they treat me, how they talk to me, how they worry when I get sick, how they help me when I need help, .... All that is the evidence that suggests they love me.




This is not analogous at all to unfalsifiable claims of "the afterlife".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I believe because:
I would rather believe and it not be true, than not believe and then turns out to be true...

Then why aren't you a muslim? Or a hindu? Or a scientologist?
Do you realise what would happen to you if those religions turn out true and you weren't a member of the club?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why would you care if what I believe is reasonable?

Because beliefs inform actions and I'ld rather have my fellow citizens hold reasonable beliefs so that their actions might be equally reasonable.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Ok man believe whatever you want. I don't want to argue with you. I just wanted to know why you believe what you believe. I'm confused as to why you believe though but whatever.

It's just yet another incarnation of Pascal's Wager.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I am of the opinion that no god or afterlife exists, and that much of what is attributed to Jesus is exaggerated or untrue. However, I could be wrong in which case, I must ensure I take my suitcase of asbestos clothing with me to hell.

Are others, whether believers or unbelievers, ready to admit that it is possible their stance on matters of faith could be wrong?

It all depends upon the actual possibilities for things to even be remotely considered to start with .

 

[Lee Hays]

How is believing in a God a choice? Just like other things I can't see, I can't start making myself believe that fairies exist on a whim... it's not something I can turn on and off freely like turning on or off a pipe. Freely choosing to believing that God exists doesn't make sense. How would somebody even do such a thing? It's either I'm convinced that a God exists or I'm not, I can't freely convince myself (however that might work) that God exists or doesn't exist.

You choose not to believe...
That’s not something that’s automatically inside of you... and something has to turn it on.

You can't explain the science of "the afterlife", you mean.
And that's true off course. Just like one can't explain the science of alien abduction and rainbow eating fairies.



I know my family loves me.


It is apparant from their commonly observable behaviour: the way they treat me, how they talk to me, how they worry when I get sick, how they help me when I need help, .... All that is the evidence that suggests they love me.




This is not analogous at all to unfalsifiable claims of "the afterlife".

Yes - but why do they love you?
You proving they love you -
But why do you feel Love for them ?

Is it action they do?
That creates love for them?

 

[Jos]

You choose not to believe...
That’s not something that’s automatically inside of you... and something has to turn it on.

Belief isn't a choice. Do you choose not to believe that fairies exist or it is not believing that fairies exist something that naturally happens? How the heck can I choose to believe in something I've never heard or seen from?

 

[Lee Hays]

Then why aren't you a muslim? Or a hindu? Or a scientologist?
Do you realise what would happen to you if those religions turn out true and you weren't a member of the club?

Simply because of Jesus Christ.

You can't explain the science of "the afterlife", you mean.
And that's true off course. Just like one can't explain the science of alien abduction and rainbow eating fairies.



I know my family loves me.


It is apparant from their commonly observable behaviour: the way they treat me, how they talk to me, how they worry when I get sick, how they help me when I need help, .... All that is the evidence that suggests they love me.

But why do they love you? You give example of lov (the way they treat you) but why is it you feel that “love” - just because of actions they do???


This is not analogous at all to unfalsifiable claims of "the afterlife".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You choose not to believe...
That’s not something that’s automatically inside of you... and something has to turn it on.

I don't "choose" to "not believe" in your god then I "choose" to not believe in santa.

I don't get to "choose" what I do or don't believe in.
I believe whatever convinces me. And what convinces me is a combination of evidence, argumentation, trust,...

When exposed to an idea and data, I either find it compelling or not.

You are the same.

Think about if you could "choose", right here, right now, to believe (and really honestly believe) in the Norse gods and whalhalla. And honestly "believe"-believe. As in, accepting it as true as the idea that you'll hurt yourself if you jump down from the 3rd floor unto the concrete paveway.

I say you can not. I say also that you know that you can not.

Yes - but why do they love you?
You proving they love you -
But why do you feel Love for them ?

They're friends and family. Regular parts of my life. People I grew up with, who took/take care of me, who I took/take care off. There's an emotional bond there.

Where are you trying to go with this?

Is it action they do?
That creates love for them?

[/quote]

Sounds reasonable.

If they'ld just completely ignored me all the time, I'ld probably not like them very much.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Simply because of Jesus Christ.

Not because of the parents / community / culture you happen to find yourself in?

Because I'ld consider it very likely that you would have been in a muslim would you have been born a native in Iran or Saudi Arabia. Or a hindu had you been born into a hindu family in India.

But why do they love you? You give example of lov (the way they treat you) but why is it you feel that “love” - just because of actions they do???

How else, but through their actions, would I know their conceptual heart?

If they would just say that they love me, but then hurt and betray me at every opportunity, I wouldn't believe their claim of them loving me.

Through their actions, you know people.

It's, in the end, what is in your head that will manifest into real-life action, is it not?

Consider the opposite of "engaging in actions": to sit in a corner in a catatonic state, without even facial expressions (= also actions!). Kind of hard to conclude from there who that person loves and doesn't love, right?


So, yes: i know my family loves me based on how they treat me, respond to me, etc.

 

[Audie]

I am of the opinion that no god or afterlife exists, and that much of what is attributed to Jesus is exaggerated or untrue. However, I could be wrong in which case, I must ensure I take my suitcase of asbestos clothing with me to hell.

Are others, whether believers or unbelievers, ready to admit that it is possible their stance on matters of faith could be wrong?

Not for fundies

 

[Lee Hays]

Belief isn't a choice. Do you choose not to believe that fairies exist or it is not believing that fairies exist something that naturally happens? How the heck can I choose to believe in something I've never heard or seen from?

If belief is not a choice -
Why are you here (if not for providing Christians for other options - possibilities. Then your just causing trouble)

If belief is not a choice -
Why are there so many religions -
If not a choice - there would only be one - or none...

That math doesn’t add-up


Besides -who are you to tell me I have no choice?
I reserve the right as a human - to choose what I want - that includes believing.

By your own statement - you can’t convince me not to believe....
(again why then are you even here)


I think it’s hilarious- atheist seem like they want to intrude into your head - and say you have no choice, or you must.... they put words in your mouth and then argue that point...

....and they will say belief is not a choice - well no wonder.
Christians easily conform to Christ - atheist want to be in that position, where Christians conform to them. they may think that because;
they think belief is no choice, they think that if provided science - you must (not choose to) no longer believe.

And yes - I easily choose to not believe in unicorns - or time travel -

I chose to believe - no matter what
You chose to not believe - no matter what

 

[Audie]

I believe human knowledge to be finite and prone to error but the knowledge of the Manifestations of God to be true knowledge, infallible and never wrong.

So while I admit I have shortcomings and failures, my complete trust in the Manifestations of God, and in Their laws and teachings for each age, is unquestionable.

"God" is the only proper noun there. It looks phony and
pretentious to invent new ones like that.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Not for fundies

Yeah idd. In fact, that's kind of what makes them fundies ...

The pure dogmatic approach of it all.

To the point that if reality doesn't agree with the dogmatic beliefs, they'll assume that reality is wrong.

 

[Lee Hays]

Not for fundies

I know your talking about me sweets !

I’m truly happy - you’ve been thinking of me for days... you may want to see the show again...?

 

[Lee Hays]

Belief isn't a choice. Do you choose not to believe that fairies exist or it is not believing that fairies exist something that naturally happens? How the heck can I choose to believe in something I've never heard or seen from?

If belief is not a choice -
Why are you here (if not for providing Christians for other options - possibilities. Then your just causing trouble)

If belief is not a choice -
Why are there so many religions -
If not a choice A there would only be one - or none...

If belief is not a choice -


That math doesn’t add-up

I know your talking about me sweets !

I’m truly happy - you’ve been thinking of me for days... you may want to see the show again...?

nobody cares more about Christians - than atheists!

 

[Audie]

I found out biblical truth.
It is the Bible that sets us free. Free from what is biblically false.

Now see, I think you got it exactly backwards.
All of it.

AND, that you are risking a sense of personal infallibility,
that you, with your chosen techniques, and your idea of
"biblical truth", of what "truth"* even is, are elevating
yourself far out of the "humble" range wherein ye
Christian is said to dwell.

This thread is about questioning, doubt, not
self satisfied certainty.

"just when you think you've
finally got it made
bad news comes knocking
at your garden gate
knocking for you."

* I can show you with concrete examples

 

[Lee Hays]

Belief isn't a choice. Do you choose not to believe that fairies exist or it is not believing that fairies exist something that naturally happens? How the heck can I choose to believe in something I've never heard or seen from?

If belief is not a choice -
Why are you here (if not for providing Christians for other options - possibilities. Then your just causing trouble)

If belief is not a choice -
Why are there so many religions -
If not a choice A there would only be one - or none...

If belief is not a choice -


That math doesn’t add-up

If belief is not a choice -
Why are you here (if not for providing Christians for other options - possibilities. Then your just causing trouble)

If belief is not a choice -
Why are there so many religions -
If not a choice - there would only be one - or none...

That math doesn’t add-up


Besides -who are you to tell me I have no choice?
I reserve the right as a human - to choose what I want - that includes believing.

By your own statement - you can’t convince me not to believe....
(again why then are you even here)


I think it’s hilarious- atheist seem like they want to intrude into your head - and say you have no choice, or you must.... they put words in your mouth and then argue that point...

....and they will say belief is not a choice - well no wonder.
Christians easily conform to Christ - atheist want to be in that position, where Christians conform to them. they may think that because;
they think belief is no choice, they think that if provided science - you must (not choose to) no longer believe.

And yes - I easily choose to not believe in unicorns - or time travel -

I chose to believe - no matter what
You chose to not believe - no matter what

... trust me belief is a choice.
Do YOU you choose to believe that -or do you have to?