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A Flood of Nonsense

sooda

Veteran Member
You're not responding to what I wrote which had nothing to do with any validity to the claim that a global flood actually occurred.

Its a children's story.. There was never any global flood.

If you can find the following, it might help you.

The Bible actually has more than one creation myth, and the one you're thinking of seems to have arisen not from ancient Israelite lore but rather from the central Asian steppes. Elon Gilad writes about the genesis of Genesis.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Rather than accept a particular flood story uncritically or dismiss it without further thought, to me a better question is why the idea of a flood is so widespread.

I'm thinking of cargo cults as a relatively recent occurrence where we know how a myth got started and why it got started and how events we fully understand were turned into mythology. Cargo cult - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cargo cult is a name given to several religions. There are many cargo cults in Melanesia and New Guinea. These religions are started when tribal societies come into contact with Western civilisation. When the first contact happened, the tribespeople saw Western manufactured goods, like radios. These things are called cargo. The tribespeople did not know how the manufactured goods worked nor how they were made.

They imitate the behaviour they saw the Westerners do, in the hope that some spirits will send them more cargo. In other cases, such as on the island of Tanna in Vanuatu, cult members worship Americans who brought the cargo.[1]
...
The people who are part of the cargo cults think that the cargo was created by their deities and ancestors. They think that the cargo was made for the members of the cargo cult, but the foreigners have it. For this reason, the efforts and rituals of cargo cults are done so that the foreigners should get less of these goods and the cult members more of them.
Certainly cargo cult exists in reverse from modern scholarship in antiquity as well. Its not a one way street of "we smaaaaart they stupid we go college get phd we really know got phd bone in nose"

Its Stupid to think that you can intellectualize the text and project onto the text how the text is experienced it it original setting especially these kinds of text. Hell creationism is just one of many obvious stupid modern fantasys in projections is all.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Debunking Creationism: A Flood of Nonsense! The Myth of a ...

Debunking Creationism: November 2012a-flood-of-nonsense-myth-of...

Nov 23, 2012 · Yet another flood story that differs significantly from the biblical one is found in Norse myth. Odin and his two brothers, Villi and Ve, kill the frost giant, Ymir, and make the world out of his body. His blood creates a flood that drowns most of the other frost giants. All this happens before the creation of the human race.

Excerpt:

Are flood myths universal? No. At least, not one in which a worldwide flood wipes out all of the human race but for a couple or a single family. Consider the case of China. Does this large country with an unbroken history going back to ancient times have a flood myth, replete with a boat on which a few survivors escape, from thence to reestablish the human race?

It does, however that particular flood myth comes from an ethnic minority called the Miao. They speak a language similar to Thai and appear to have immigrated to China from Southeast Asia. The only other flood myth from China involves annual flooding from rivers and the need for people to work together to prevent such destruction. It involves no ark and no destruction of all life on the planet.

Consider also an Egyptian flood myth. Surely this one should be similar to those of the Bible and Mesopotamia if the flood were, in fact, historical. In this myth the gods, suspecting mortal treachery against them, dispatch the goddess Hat-hor to take vengeance on the human race.

However, her blood lust gets out of hand and threatens to utterly annihilate humanity. Since this is not the aim of the gods, they pour out upon Egypt a flood of beer brewed from mandrake root, which has soporific properties. Hat-hor, setting out on her daily rampage, looks down at the flooded land of Egypt, sees her own beautiful visage reflected in the beer and bends down to kiss it. She begins to drink the mandrake root beer and drinks so much of it that she forgets the plan of destruction and instead staggers off to bed. Thus, in the Egyptian flood story, the flood saves the human race.

Yet another flood story that differs significantly from the biblical one is found in Norse myth. Odin and his two brothers, Villi and Ve, kill the frost giant, Ymir, and make the world out of his body. His blood creates a flood that drowns most of the other frost giants. All this happens before the creation of the human race.

There is no native Celtic flood myth. I have to stress the word “native” since the Celtic myths, like those of the Teutonic peoples were written down by Christian monks, who harmonized them with myths from the Bible. Here is yet another problem with the vaunted universality of flood myths: Many of them appear courtesy of cultural contamination by Christian and, in some cases, Muslim, missionaries.

Diffusion of flood myths is also a factor. While there are differences between earlier Mesopotamian myths and the story of Noah’s ark, and while there is not a literary descent from the earlier material to the later, there is a cultural continuity. Thus, the Akkadian flood epic, Atrahasis, gave rise to later flood tales, not only the story of Noah in the Bible, but, as well, that of Deucalion and Pyrrha in Greek mythology. We do not find, nor would we expect to find, any great literary correspondence between an Akkadian epic, written on preserved tablets dating from ca. 1650 BCE and the biblical flood myth, the earliest version of which probably dates from ca. 850 BCE.

In his defense of the biblical flood story as history, White also falls back on an old canard, to whit, that the scribal transcription of the biblical text is so precise that it is far more accurate and less open to corrupting changes than any other ancient document.

Certainly this might have been true of their transcription once the documents in question were seen as holy writ. However, varying versions of biblical tales were still being written perhaps as late as the Babylonian Captivity (587–538 BCE). That the biblical text is of late compilation is further attested to by its many anachronisms. Consider, as an example, what Genesis says of the place of origin of Abrahm, that is, Abraham (Gen. 11:31 emphasis added):

Tereh took Abrahm his son and Lot, the son of Haran, his grandson and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abrahm’s wife, and he went forth from Ur of the Chaldeans to go into the land of Canaan; but when they came to Haran they settled there.

While this test purports to be from the hand of Moses, written sometime between 1400 and 1200 BCE, the Chaldeans did not occupy Ur until ca. 800 BCE. Hence, this document’s reference to Ur as “Ur of the Chaldeans” dates it as having been written after that time.

Chris White would do a great service to the cause of critical thinking, and to himself as well, were he to excise the flood material from his otherwise exemplary documentary.

Debunking Creationism: A Flood of Nonsense! The Myth of a Universal flood via eSkeptic
Well at least we have some stories of god and nature some how related.

Do we understand it? Well no creationism is a good example. We could project onto the text that they were literally written by modern creationists!! Thats what modern creationists say. Well we know that is stupid so i might question that first. Since these texts may not be remotely related to modern Creationism (just a wild guess here) treating the stories as such might be profoundly flawed. Again a wild guess that takes like 2 seconds of contemplation.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
. . . because local catastrophic floods occur throughout human history up to today and they always will. They are well documented as local catastrophic river floods, tsunamis, and floods related glaciation.



Cargo cults are interesting evolved myths related to primitive cultures coming in contact with civilization.
Is it impossible for the reverse to be true?

In order for cargo cult concept to be totally true it has to be bi directional. If modernity is being cargo cult in context to ancient texts would it know it? Clearly creationsts are not aware if it. Are critics of modern creationism aware of modern creationism being literally a cargo cult? What exactly is cargo cult?

The evidence points to what i am alluding to as being correct just based on the historical development in anthropology.
 
Last edited:

leov

Well-Known Member
i
Debunking Creationism: A Flood of Nonsense! The Myth of a ...

Debunking Creationism: November 2012a-flood-of-nonsense-myth-of...

Nov 23, 2012 · Yet another flood story that differs significantly from the biblical one is found in Norse myth. Odin and his two brothers, Villi and Ve, kill the frost giant, Ymir, and make the world out of his body. His blood creates a flood that drowns most of the other frost giants. All this happens before the creation of the human race.

Excerpt:

Are flood myths universal? No. At least, not one in which a worldwide flood wipes out all of the human race but for a couple or a single family. Consider the case of China. Does this large country with an unbroken history going back to ancient times have a flood myth, replete with a boat on which a few survivors escape, from thence to reestablish the human race?

It does, however that particular flood myth comes from an ethnic minority called the Miao. They speak a language similar to Thai and appear to have immigrated to China from Southeast Asia. The only other flood myth from China involves annual flooding from rivers and the need for people to work together to prevent such destruction. It involves no ark and no destruction of all life on the planet.

Consider also an Egyptian flood myth. Surely this one should be similar to those of the Bible and Mesopotamia if the flood were, in fact, historical. In this myth the gods, suspecting mortal treachery against them, dispatch the goddess Hat-hor to take vengeance on the human race.

However, her blood lust gets out of hand and threatens to utterly annihilate humanity. Since this is not the aim of the gods, they pour out upon Egypt a flood of beer brewed from mandrake root, which has soporific properties. Hat-hor, setting out on her daily rampage, looks down at the flooded land of Egypt, sees her own beautiful visage reflected in the beer and bends down to kiss it. She begins to drink the mandrake root beer and drinks so much of it that she forgets the plan of destruction and instead staggers off to bed. Thus, in the Egyptian flood story, the flood saves the human race.

Yet another flood story that differs significantly from the biblical one is found in Norse myth. Odin and his two brothers, Villi and Ve, kill the frost giant, Ymir, and make the world out of his body. His blood creates a flood that drowns most of the other frost giants. All this happens before the creation of the human race.

There is no native Celtic flood myth. I have to stress the word “native” since the Celtic myths, like those of the Teutonic peoples were written down by Christian monks, who harmonized them with myths from the Bible. Here is yet another problem with the vaunted universality of flood myths: Many of them appear courtesy of cultural contamination by Christian and, in some cases, Muslim, missionaries.

Diffusion of flood myths is also a factor. While there are differences between earlier Mesopotamian myths and the story of Noah’s ark, and while there is not a literary descent from the earlier material to the later, there is a cultural continuity. Thus, the Akkadian flood epic, Atrahasis, gave rise to later flood tales, not only the story of Noah in the Bible, but, as well, that of Deucalion and Pyrrha in Greek mythology. We do not find, nor would we expect to find, any great literary correspondence between an Akkadian epic, written on preserved tablets dating from ca. 1650 BCE and the biblical flood myth, the earliest version of which probably dates from ca. 850 BCE.

In his defense of the biblical flood story as history, White also falls back on an old canard, to whit, that the scribal transcription of the biblical text is so precise that it is far more accurate and less open to corrupting changes than any other ancient document.

Certainly this might have been true of their transcription once the documents in question were seen as holy writ. However, varying versions of biblical tales were still being written perhaps as late as the Babylonian Captivity (587–538 BCE). That the biblical text is of late compilation is further attested to by its many anachronisms. Consider, as an example, what Genesis says of the place of origin of Abrahm, that is, Abraham (Gen. 11:31 emphasis added):

Tereh took Abrahm his son and Lot, the son of Haran, his grandson and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abrahm’s wife, and he went forth from Ur of the Chaldeans to go into the land of Canaan; but when they came to Haran they settled there.

While this test purports to be from the hand of Moses, written sometime between 1400 and 1200 BCE, the Chaldeans did not occupy Ur until ca. 800 BCE. Hence, this document’s reference to Ur as “Ur of the Chaldeans” dates it as having been written after that time.

Chris White would do a great service to the cause of critical thinking, and to himself as well, were he to excise the flood material from his otherwise exemplary documentary.

Debunking Creationism: A Flood of Nonsense! The Myth of a Universal flood via eSkeptic
Fingerprint Of A Global Cataclysm 12,800 Years Ago - Graham Hancock Official Website
Very possible.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Such event would stay in people's collective memory.

Graham Hancock - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Hancock

Graham Bruce Hancock is a British writer and journalist. Hancock specialises in pseudoscientific theories involving ancient civilisations, Earth changes, stone monuments or megaliths, altered states of consciousness, ancient myths, and astronomical or astrological data from the past.

One theme of his works proposes a connection with a 'mother culture' from which he believes other ancient civilisations sprang. An example of pseudoarchaeology, his work has neither been peer reviewed nor published
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Graham Hancock - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Hancock

Graham Bruce Hancock is a British writer and journalist. Hancock specialises in pseudoscientific theories involving ancient civilisations, Earth changes, stone monuments or megaliths, altered states of consciousness, ancient myths, and astronomical or astrological data from the past.

One theme of his works proposes a connection with a 'mother culture' from which he believes other ancient civilisations sprang. An example of pseudoarchaeology, his work has neither been peer reviewed nor published
I spent some amount of time reading GH. I don't buy above critic. Science is not always honest, imo. Especially in history related subjects. They prefer to be silent rather than touch peer reviewed things - may ruin some comfortable life arrangements, some of them spent lifetime on subject 'a', so, they take apart anyone who comes up with subject 'ab'.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I spent some amount of time reading GH. I don't buy above critic. Science is not always honest, imo. Especially in history related subjects. They prefer to be silent rather than touch peer reviewed things - may ruin some comfortable life arrangements, some of them spent lifetime on subject 'a', so, they take apart anyone who comes up with subject 'ab'.

Where would he get astrological data from the past?

He isn't a "scientist" so why do you say science isn't always honest?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
How credible is Graham Hancock? : JoeRogan - reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/JoeRogan/comments/1qz7ed/how_credible_is_graham_hancock
Nov 19, 2013 · Graham Hancock is not actually a scientist. He is a reporter whose interests revolve around history/fringe science. Very important distinction to point out. I like his ideas about philosophy and culture, but when he starts to talk about "scientific theories" and that sort of …
 

leov

Well-Known Member
How credible is Graham Hancock? : JoeRogan - reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/JoeRogan/comments/1qz7ed/how_credible_is_graham_hancock
Nov 19, 2013 · Graham Hancock is not actually a scientist. He is a reporter whose interests revolve around history/fringe science. Very important distinction to point out. I like his ideas about philosophy and culture, but when he starts to talk about "scientific theories" and that sort of …
Elite pays science, elite dictates what to say.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Graham Hancock - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Hancock

Graham Bruce Hancock is a British writer and journalist. Hancock specialises in pseudoscientific theories involving ancient civilisations, Earth changes, stone monuments or megaliths, altered states of consciousness, ancient myths, and astronomical or astrological data from the past.

One theme of his works proposes a connection with a 'mother culture' from which he believes other ancient civilisations sprang. An example of pseudoarchaeology, his work has neither been peer reviewed nor published

Sounds like the pulp fiction by Immanuel Velikovsky.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member

The big issue with the bible saying the world was flooded was that different people at different times in
"bible times" saw the "earth" as something altogether different. In Jesus' time the "world" meant the
Roman Empire, even though they understood there was Africa, Parthia, Germania and the like out there.
And the "earth" wasn't a planet - a planet was a wandering star.
Methinks a flooded "world" was a flooded Middle East.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
You might want to look up "Ice Age".. Retreating glaciers had NOTHING to do with any claim of a global flood. That's actually hilarious.
Not as funny as all that. I read a rather good paper a year or two ago suggesting that the biblical flood myth could have been inspired by the progressive flooding of the Persian Gulf, after the end of the last Ice age as sea levels rose. The Shatt-al-Arab would at that time have flowed through the foreland basin that we now call the Gulf to the Straits of Hormuz and it is likely the area would have been populated. The paper estimated, that due to the shallowness of the incline, the sea might easily have advanced at a rate of the order of a metre per day, for thousands of years, forcing people to move.

Although it can only be speculation, it is certainly possible to imagine that such a long but disruptive process might have made its way into folklore and become gradually twisted into a myth of a more sudden but equally "global"-seeming flood, among the peoples of Mesopotamia.
 
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