Jeremiah Ames
Well-Known Member
I could also be eternally optimistic about nature if people didn’t keep trying to mess it up so much.Yes, it is. A magically perfect paradise is vastly inferior to what nature might offer.
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I could also be eternally optimistic about nature if people didn’t keep trying to mess it up so much.Yes, it is. A magically perfect paradise is vastly inferior to what nature might offer.
I could also be eternally optimistic about nature if people didn’t keep trying to mess it up so much.
Or God is going to hear from me...There better be cats.
Yes, I'm sure I could answer those questions.
Evidently, you cannot.
I think I will let this conversation die.
It's becoming apparent that you have no interest in a discussion.
Someone one said:
A person who knows everything has nothing to learn.
I appreciate your desire to appeal to the scriptures, but I'm not fond of this version of the Bible.Romans 5:12
This is what happened: Sin came into the world by one man, Adam. Sin brought death with it. Death spread to all men because all have sinned.
First off, in my original comment that led to this discussion I did not say that Adam or Eve had never sinned or that they had not sinned in partaking of the fruit. What I said was,
"This idea that Adam and Eve did something wicked when they partook the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is very new..." (Bold added)
To commit sin and to do something wicked are not the same thing.
To do something wicked is to imply an evil motive, while sins can be committed with any kind of motive. They can even be committed in ignorance.
Since Adam and Eve did not possess the Knowledge of Good and Evil prior to partaking of the fruit, they were unable to do so with any good or evil intent or motivation.
I believe that Paul himself made this very same argument two verses after the one you quoted. He said,
Certainly this point would be a matter of opinion IMV. They did know what happened to Lucifer/Satan/Serpent (also known as the Wicked One). I don't need to go to jail to understand that I don't want to rob a bank. So they did understand that separation from God is not good and to choose the path of Satan is a wrong decision.Since Adam and Eve did not possess the Knowledge of Good and Evil prior to partaking of the fruit, they were unable to do so with any good or evil intent or motivation.
“The nature of heaven is to provide a place there for all who lead good lives, no matter what their religion may be.”
― Emanuel Swedenborg
My question: Why not?
I find Jesus answers who will get to Heaven at Luke 22:28-30; 2 Timothy 2:12“The nature of heaven is to provide a place there for all who lead good lives, no matter what their religion may be.”
― Emanuel Swedenborg My question: Why not?
Ok... understand the difference... Not all sins are wicked but every wicked act is a sin would be another way to say it. Likewise, a person can do a wicked deed and not be wicked.
But isn't whether or not what Adam and Eve did was wicked an opinion at most?
It can be viewed that Adam chose to not believe the truth and select another god as the way to truth and life which could be classified as a wicked decision. Certainly, if I caused a death, it could be classified as a wicked deed.
Bible tells eternal life is for righteous:
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
People who have not yet heard of God or Jesus can be counted righteous by this:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16
Also, you say the soul is not permanent. Yes.
But do you think we also have a spirit, or inner self? Which is what becomes enlightened upon letting go of the human existence.
Those who can reach enlightenment and end the samsara (rebirth) are those who will enter heavenly realm. those who do not reach enlightenment stay in the rebirth cycle
Oh dear! This is not good news.No one is saved in ignorance.
I was referring to the ability of nature to provide eternal life replete with familiar delights- and to do so without compromising the vitality of our existence.
Hi and thanks for your very thoughtful response. I am guessing you are responding to my comment. Well, I must say that I, again, have nothing to disagree with above. I also prefer the KJV.I appreciate your desire to appeal to the scriptures, but I'm not fond of this version of the Bible.
Just for my personal sake, I'm going to requote the above verse from the King James Version.
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
First off, in my original comment that led to this discussion I did not say that Adam or Eve had never sinned or that they had not sinned in partaking of the fruit. What I said was,
"This idea that Adam and Eve did something wicked when they partook the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is very new..." (Bold added)
To commit sin and to do something wicked are not the same thing.
To do something wicked is to imply an evil motive, while sins can be committed with any kind of motive. They can even be committed in ignorance.
Since Adam and Eve did not possess the Knowledge of Good and Evil prior to partaking of the fruit, they were unable to do so with any good or evil intent or motivation.
I believe that Paul himself made this very same argument two verses after the one you quoted. He said,
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." (Romans 5:14) (Bold and italics added)
Paul labelled what Adam had done as a "transgression", although anyone else who decided to act in "similitude" of what Adam had done would commit sin.
The key difference being that anyone else would have had the Knowledge of Good and Evil and would therefore have the capacity to sin, while Adam, in the Garden, did not.
Adam and Eve were not wicked people. They did not act in wickedness when they partook of the fruit. That is a very new idea.
Maybe I can't read very good but I cannot find where the verses you mention say anything about anyone being in heaven. If I am wrong please quote the verse that says this.I find Jesus answers who will get to Heaven at Luke 22:28-30; 2 Timothy 2:12
The majority of mankind (John 3:13) will have a future healthy physical resurrection back to live life on Earth.
People resurrected to Heaven are part of a first or earlier resurrection - Revelation 20:6; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 5:9-10.
Then, those of Acts of the Apostles 24:15 will have a future resurrection on Earth with the opportunity to gain everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth promised to the humble meek who will inherit the Earth.
This physical resurrection takes place during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
The Genesis account is often vague for reasons I can only guess at.What did Cain do? Genesis 4:3 tells us. “Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering to the Lord”. This is the only information we have regarding what Cain did that displeased the Lord. We see no counsel from the Lord previous to this, indicating that such an act would displease the Lord.
I believe that this is a huge punishment and that the Lord had His reasons for keeping Cain alive.Further down, once Cain kills Abel, we note that the Lord curses and banishes Cain from the ground. This is it?
I have some personal opinions for why the Lord did this.Also, Cain worries that someone may try to kill him, but the Lord promises to protect him for life. And we see he has a fruitful long life, even gets to found his own city and name it!! Surely not the kind of punishment so many people in the US demand for others who steal a loaf of bread when they’re hungry or any number of menial crimes.
I do too. I believe there is a lot more that was either lost to time or never recorded.My point of all this, being, that I see much more in those few early verses of Genesis 4.
These are huge topics that I could never do proper justice.Now I’ll get to a tougher one. How can a person be saved by faith? What does that look like? And what exactly is faith?
Salvation is basically being saved from the effects of both sin (spiritual death) and physical death brought on by the Fall of Man.But then these particular questions demand a definition of ‘saved’. What is that exactly?
In all honesty everyone in the world, regardless of any factor, is promised salvation eventually.And why can’t someone be saved in ignorance?
I understand how that can be confusing and it comes from a common misunderstanding.My engineering brain struggles with this. You say the knowledge can come in the spirit world. I have no problem with that. My problem comes in the second sentence. You say it’s always better to come earlier rather than later. You underlined and made bold the ‘always’. This seems to be illogical, since the spirit world exists in eternity. Mathematically, our time on earth is zero compared to eternity. Whether we live 7 years or 77, dividing by infinity is zero for both of them. So, why would there be a benefit to come to a certain knowledge earlier or even at all, in this world, considering we have eternity to obtain the knowledge? (Per your first sentence)
Are you kidding? I'm having a blast!I hope I didn’t overwhelm you with so many questions. Answer whatever you like. I appreciate any thoughts given
I have some personal opinions for why the Lord did this.
When Cain murdered Abel, he denied his brother of any future progeny, which is one of the main reasons for why we enter into mortality.
The Lord allowed Cain to live and to have children so that the possibility would one day arise when some of Cain's descendants would be raised unto Abel.
Just like how in the Law of Moses when a man dies without having children, his brother would then marry his deceased brother's wife and have children by her that would be dedicated to the deceased brother.
I don't know exactly when or how this may be done, but it is my opinion that this was the reason for why Cain was spared.
I do too. I believe there is a lot more that was either lost to time or never recorded.
These are huge topics that I could never do proper justice.
I'm gonna share a link to a definition of faith and accompanying scripture references.
Hopefully this will help us narrow down the discussion. Get more specific and detailed questions and answers.
Faith in Jesus Christ
Salvation is basically being saved from the effects of both sin (spiritual death) and physical death brought on by the Fall of Man.
The Lord Jesus Christ, through His suffering, has already redeemed all people from the Fall, meaning that no one is blamed for it.
We all come into this world innocent and sinless although we still suffer the effects of the Fall such as temptation to sin, pain and eventual physical death.
Since the Lord Jesus Christ suffered death and conquered it through His Resurrection, all of Mankind will one day receive this free gift of Resurrection, which is salvation from physical death.
Our spirits will be reunited with our physical bodies, only this time our bodies will be perfect. No more pain, disease, weakness or death.
Being saved from sin, also called spiritual death (because being separated from God is death to our spirits) requires action on the part of the individual.
We can receive forgiveness of sin in this life by keeping God's commandments, which can cause us to live with greater feelings of peace, love and compassion thus receiving certain benefits of salvation in mortality.
In all honesty everyone in the world, regardless of any factor, is promised salvation eventually.
The word "eventually" is what I want to focus on.
The Lord Jesus Christ has suffered for the sins of all the world. Not just the educated. Not just the spiritual. For all the world.
However, when a person will receive the benefits of that salvation depends on the individual.
Those in mortality who live righteously, rely on the Lord through faith, repent of their sins and enter into the sacred covenant of baptism can enjoy many benefits of salvation now in mortality.
They cannot be saved from physical death in this life, but they can overcome many sins and receive the blessings that come from that.
No one can overcome sin or be forgiven of sin without having a knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has down for us.
Even if you procrastinate your repentance until you enter the spirit world after this life, you must learn about the Lord Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation from sin.
It is always better to repent of your sins ASAP because you can gain more wisdom and experience. The more you have when you depart this life the better off you will be in the next.
I understand how that can be confusing and it comes from a common misunderstanding.
The "spirit world" is still bound by time. It does not exist in eternity. We do not enter eternity immediately upon death.
The spirit world is here upon the Earth and all the spirits of Mankind will go there immediately upon leaving their physical bodies.
We wait in the spirit world until the time of our Resurrection. Then after we are resurrected we receive our Final Judgment and then we enter into eternity.
It is possible to continue to learn and grow in the spirit world. The more you learn and grow in mortality, the greater the learning and growing will be in the spirit world. Exponentially so.
This is why I stress the importance of coming to the Lord Jesus Christ ASAP so you can learn and grow as He would want you to.
Are you kidding? I'm having a blast!
Where does this "eternity" take place? Heaven? Or somewhere else?I’m very glad that you’re having a blast.
I completely understand what you mean.
These types of discussions are so rewarding. Learning and understanding spiritual concepts has been a great joy to me as well.
Thank you for all of your great responses.
I’m going to hit your link and read that next, but in the meantime, a comment of yours raised another question. I can understand your thoughts about the spirit world, yet I get some confusion here. I believe we all have the desire to get beyond the spiritual world into eternity. And it is in eternity that we can grow exponentially so, for eternity. Your statement made it seem like you don’t think there is learning and growing in eternity.
Is that the case?