Jeremiah Ames
Well-Known Member
I think there may be a religious concept of the free ticket to heaven given to those with a certain belief that he was referring to.
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Who will get to heaven?
- Thread starter Jeremiah Ames
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Jeremiah Ames
Well-Known Member
From a Christian perspective, I don't think Swedenborg is quite right, but I don't think he's entirely wrong either.
My own interpretation of scripture means that I would advocate an inclusivist view of salvation. Inclusivism has nothing to do with universalism or pluralism, as some evangelical Christians have accused me of advocating in the past. I believe that Jesus is ultimately the only way to salvation, and that non-Christian religions are in error - but I also believe that God has the capability of saving some, even many, non-Christians. I shall make my case below.
1. Inclusivism is not affirmed explicitly in the Bible, but neither are plenty of other Christian doctrines. Besides, almost all Christians believe in some form of inclusivism. Other than a few hard-line Calvinists, there is a broad consensus amongst Christians that those who die in infancy, and those who suffer from severe mental disability, will be saved. This doctrine, the so-called 'age of accountability', affirms that God will not damn those who have not had the opportunity to hear and understand the gospel. It is by any reasonable standard an inclusivist doctrine, and those who reject inclusivism should by definition reject infant salvation - which I think few would be prepared to do.
2. After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb (Revelation 7:9). People from every nation and tribe will be represented in the ranks of heaven. Yet there are many tribes who have not heard of Christ, who have never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel, either through isolation or having died out before missionaries ever reached them.
3. Finally, the parable of the Good Samaritan. Jesus said that the Samaritan who had mercy was preferable to the Levite and Priest who did not. Mercy and goodness is superior to doctrine and belief. Let us remember that the Samaritans were absolute anathema to the Jews of the time, who accused them of worshipping Baal and embracing paganism. Yet the Good Samaritan was still worthy of Christ, despite growing up in a false religious culture.
Happy to debate this if anyone disagrees
I definitely disagree.
I would be pleased to debate.
However, please think harder on your 3rd point than your first two.
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Jeremiah Ames
Well-Known Member
For sure, heaven is not a place, I believe.
It’s a difficult concept to speak of though, since we’re speaking about a realm, entirely different than the one we exist in today. “A place” would require space and dimension, which are terms referring to the physical realm. The spiritual realm does not have such things, but to make the concept understandable we often use physical terms to refer to spiritual ideas. That’s how I see it.
“Heaven is not located on high, but where the good of love is, and this resides within a person, wherever he or she might be.“. Emanuel Swedenborg
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MJFlores
Well-Known Member
This dead guy?
I rather take my instructions from the Bible than from a dead guy.
I rather take my chances from Jesus Christ who died and was raised back to life by God
I rather take my cue from the one who sits on the right hand of God
I rather live on every word which God spoke
Luke 13:23-30 New International Version (NIV)
Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”
1 Peter 3:20 New International Version (NIV)
to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
Jeremiah Ames
Well-Known Member
Interesting that you were incapable of actually answering the question of the op, but decided to divert attention and criticize someone you have no knowledge of. Where did you learn such tactics?
Here is your quote:
I rather take my instructions from the Bible than from a dead guy.
I rather take my chances from Jesus Christ who died and was raised back to life by God
I rather take my cue from the one who sits on the right hand of God
I rather live on every word which God spoke
Ok, that’s all fine. But why don’t you simply have a conversation in response to the question posed. In relation to ‘the Bible’, ‘chances from Jesus Christ ‘, ‘cue from the one’ etc. Please utilize the tools you speak of to make a rational response.
leov
Well-Known Member
It is not a place and it is, another mystery. It is a state of being a dream world created by our consciousness.
Jeremiah Ames
Well-Known Member
Indeed. Do you think hell is also like heaven?
Neither exist.
Jeremiah Ames
Well-Known Member
But I have been in both.
That confirms it.
No idea. Can't understand several of the relevant points:
- the "nature of heaven"
- is it a place?
- what does it mean to "lead good lives?" Whose definition are we going with (Swedenborg obviously denies the various religious definitions)?
- why should I think that after I'm dead, I should be "going" anywhere at all. Dead seems to be a fairly well-defined term, to me. "He is dead, he is no more, there is no more him." So if there's no more me, what business have I got going anywhere at all?
Have you read Twain's Letters from the Earth? Fun stuff.
What is the measurement or plumb line of "good"?
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
Emmanual Swedenborg was somewhat occult I would not put any weight in him.
The only person who led a perfectly good life was Jesus and those in Him will be saved
but the New Testament doesn't speak in terms of heaven, it speaks in terms of being with God or with Jesus and the ultimate treasure and reward is God - the ultimate treasure and reward is Jesus
1 John 5:11,12
I have written to you that you may know you have eternal life. He who has the Son has the life. He who does not have the Son does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the Son of God that you may know you have eternal life.
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong. Isaiah 56:4-5 has something to say about that. Think about the criteria.
It is interesting that Mormons have a doctrine about three 'Heavens". I don't intend to try to refute it. They see a Celestial Heaven, a Terrestrial Heaven and a Telestial Heaven, so perhaps room for most folk who try even a little. There is all sorts of doctrine surrounding the idea, and I think that this might be the most closely defined doctrine on the matter that I have seen.
All I can say for sure when I face God is that I tried as hard as I could despite my many failings. No one should focus on getting to Heaven. Instead, perhaps focusing on pleasing God is better?
It is interesting that Mormons have a doctrine about three 'Heavens". I don't intend to try to refute it. They see a Celestial Heaven, a Terrestrial Heaven and a Telestial Heaven, so perhaps room for most folk who try even a little. There is all sorts of doctrine surrounding the idea, and I think that this might be the most closely defined doctrine on the matter that I have seen.
All I can say for sure when I face God is that I tried as hard as I could despite my many failings. No one should focus on getting to Heaven. Instead, perhaps focusing on pleasing God is better?
Yes, I have read all of Mark's stuff, ad love it. His 'Letters from the Earth' is one of my favorites.
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I consider him one of may leaders of recent movements in Christianity that appeal to the mystical to explain and alternate interpretations of scripture to syncritise their beliefs with the radically changing knowledge of the world.
leov
Well-Known Member
It is a state of mind too, I think that they can not live in a happy dream world but one built according their consciousness, I agree that Swedenborg may be right in this case - they chose their likes to associate with.
Interesting when you consider that a "realm" was a word used to describe a Kingdom.....the lands ruled over by a sovereign monarch.
So is heaven a place?
Jeremiah wrote about the likelihood of God forgiving his repentant people in a foreign land and said....
"then hear in heaven your dwelling place their prayer and their plea, and maintain their cause." (1 Kings 8:49 NASB)
Jesus too said "Our Father who art in heaven", giving God a place or location where he dwells.
Glimpses into heaven given to ancient servants of God are amazing. They struggled to find human descriptors for what they were seeing. The Books of Ezekiel and Revelation are good examples. So it appears that heaven is a place.....a realm where material things cannot exist and where humans cannot survive. Those given the privilege of going to heaven to rule with Christ, must be transformed or changed into spirit beings in order to exist there. Christ died as a mortal and was raised as a spirit, so too those who will rule with him in his kingdom.
When the apostle Paul spoke of being "changed in the twinkling of an eye" in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, the word "changed" in Greek is "allassō" meaning....
"to change, to exchange one thing for another, to transform".
They exchange their mortal body for a spiritual body able to dwell in the presence of God.
Sorry, but I can't agree with that because the Bible does not say that. The earth was never intended as a training ground for heaven....we were put here on earth as a permanent place for humans to live forever....in the flesh. If you read Genesis, you will see that living forever was solely dependent on obedience to God's command. The tree of life was there in the garden to guarantee that human life would continue on indefinitely. But they did transgress God's law and suffered the penalty. Look what God said about that....
"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life." (Genesis 3:22-24 NASB)
If God had not barred the way to the tree of life, then sinful humans would have had the means to live forever, not in heaven, but here on earth.
The ancient Jews had no concept of going to heaven, but were awaiting their Messiah to set up God's Kingdom here on earth. Even as Jesus was ascending to heaven, they asked if he was going to establish his kingdom, right there and then? (Acts of the Apostles 1:6)
Most people believe that 'good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell'...that is nothing even close to what the Bible teaches...that is what Christendom teaches. It could not be further from the truth.
According to the Bible, there is no immortal soul to go anywhere. The idea of an immortal soul was a Greek notion that was adopted by apostate Judaism and also grafted into apostate Christianity. Why is it pushed so hard? Because it serves the interests of the devil. It perpetuates the very first lie that he told to the woman in Eden......"you surely will not die"...when God said that they would. He did not tell them about heaven or hell, but simply that they would return to the dust. There was no afterlife mentioned until God's promised a resurrection. This is a restoration to life, just as Lazarus was restored to life. Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him?
Jesus tells us...
John 11:11-14...
"After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died".
This is what Jews believed.....there was a "sleeping" in the grave, and at God's due time, there would be a reawakening....a restoration of life as we know it. Jesus has been appointed to resurrect the dead. (John 5:28-29)
Like Lazarus, he calls them, not from heaven, but from their tombs.
Any notion of going to heaven was instilled later at Pentecost when the holy spirit anointed Jesus disciples and implanted a desire to go to heaven to be with their Lord. Only a chosen few will enjoy that privilege and they are chosen by God for that role. We have no say in that. These will be resurrected first. (Revelation 20:6)
Its hard to get your head around the fact that you may have been deceived about these things all your life....but the Bible is very clear about who goes to heaven and why. Their rulership will be over mankind as it is stated in Revelation 21:2-4. What amazing benefits await the faithful....
That is what I understand from my extensive study of the scriptures.
