Are there any Muslims here that support apostasy should be punished?

[Baroodi]

That guy is pretty good. He must be taking some risk doing this.

Unfortunately this is totally wrong, this is part of a propaganda against Islam. Where from Quran or the career of prophet mohammed this man got these allegations. I challenge any one believing in these false allegations to point to any verse in Quran exhorting such fabrications. On the contrary Muslims respects to far extent non Muslims not in enmity against them. One verse from Quran refute what this man is saying. (God forbids you not, with regard to those who are not fighting you nor drive you out of your home, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just) 60:9. Unless he wants Muslim to infatuate with those who are killing them and demolishing their homes.

 

[charlie sc]

Sensitive? I don't know about that . Crimes like rape, murder and grand larceny actually do hurt the community.. more than just getting your feelings hurt.

Ah yes, you think that apostasy is somehow correlated with other crimes or the apostates are always tried for apostasy and some other crime as seen by this quote -

I think the death penalty for simple apostasy alone is wrong.. and it is rarely prosecuted,

I have no idea how to approach this, because it's so convoluted and illogical. I don't know if I should even attempt it. This would be like saying, I don't believe sneezing should be punished but if it's punished with rape then it's ok. I'm not sure if anyone can argue against crazy.
First, you fail to supply any evidence that there is any correlation whatsoever. On the other hand, I can look at any news article describing trials vs apostates that have no mention of other crimes. Second, there's this fallacious reasoning going on as said above.

 

[charlie sc]

Unfortunately this is totally wrong, this is part of a propaganda against Islam. Where from Quran or the career of prophet mohammed this man got these allegations. I challenge any one believing in these false allegations to point to any verse in Quran exhorting such fabrications. On the contrary Muslims respects to far extent non Muslims not in enmity against them. One verse from Quran refute what this man is saying. (God forbids you not, with regard to those who are not fighting you nor drive you out of your home, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just) 60:9. Unless he wants Muslim to infatuate with those who are killing them and demolishing their homes.

Perhaps someone who knows about the Quran can comment, since I know little to nothing about it. However, Lionheart seemed to have pointed some scripture inclining attacking those that disbelieve as seen here

I think your prophet made it quite clear:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17, see also Sahih Muslim, 16:4152, Sahih Muslim, 16:4154
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'"

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260
A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle."

— Sahih al-Bukhari,

What I do know is that some Muslims tend to attack those that leave Islam and speak out about it. This is not to say it's because of the Quran but it may be a factor of it, which then has become normalised in some Islamic beliefs. For instance, Marx never said kill religious people or anything of the like. In fact, he was supportive towards religious people doing what they want as seen in his essay On The Jewish Question. As far as I know, Lenin did not persecute the religious either. It was only when Stalin became leader, did he put his own views forward on what a communism is or how to get there. Therefore, it's obvious why something as interpretive as religious scripture can be seen in numerous ways, let alone talk about how people can obscure it. To say that he shouldn't be afraid or is not taking a risk is plain wrong. Look at the Charlie Hebdo shooting, which was in a non-Islamic country. Then you have certain Islamic communities who supported this act and mass-murder for ideological criticism and mockery as seen by this example.

 

[sooda]

Ah yes, you think that apostasy is somehow correlated with other crimes or the apostates are always tried for apostasy and some other crime as seen by this quote -


I have no idea how to approach this, because it's so convoluted and illogical. I don't know if I should even attempt it. This would be like saying, I don't believe sneezing should be punished but if it's punished with rape then it's ok. I'm not sure if anyone can argue against crazy.
First, you fail to supply any evidence that there is any correlation whatsoever. On the other hand, I can look at any news article describing trials vs apostates that have no mention of other crimes. Second, there's this fallacious reasoning going on as said above.

Apostasy is tacked on AFTER the conviction.. If they have murdered or robbed a cabbie, pistol whipped him and run over him.. They have betrayed the faith and their neighbors.

 

[sooda]

I think your prophet made it quite clear:


Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17, see also Sahih Muslim, 16:4152, Sahih Muslim, 16:4154
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'"

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260
A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle."

— Sahih al-Bukhari,

Bukhari was from Persia and he was born 200 years after the death of Muhammed.. Plus, he was 98 years old when he testified as to these hadiths.. most of which can't be authenticated.

Did you learn about Islam on the internet?

 

[charlie sc]

Apostasy is tacked on AFTER the conviction.. If they have murdered or robbed a cabbie, pistol whipped him and run over him.. They have betrayed the faith and their neighbors.

Jesus, it took a while to understand what you meant. So what you're saying is that anything against scripture, or interpreted so, is considered apostasy. My brain is about to explode so I'll take a break.

 

[sooda]

Jesus, it took a while to understand what you meant. So what you're saying is that anything against scripture, or interpreted so, is considered apostasy. My brain is about to explode so I'll take a break.

No.. not anything against scripture.. CRIMES

Muslims are forbidden criminal behaviors just like Christians.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

No.. not anything against scripture.. CRIMES

Muslims are forbidden criminal behaviors just like Christians.

So...Raif Badawi?

 

[England my lionheart]

Bukhari was from Persia and he was born 200 years after the death of Muhammed.. Plus, he was 98 years old when he testified as to these hadiths.. most of which can't be authenticated.

Did you learn about Islam on the internet?

Yes sure,learning is a good habit,xxz

Bukhari was from Persia and he was born 200 years after the death of Muhammed.. Plus, he was 98 years old when he testified as to these hadiths.. most of which can't be authenticated.

Did you learn about Islam on the internet?

Always good to learn,the Quran wasn't written down for a few hundred years after your prophet died either,does that mean that can't be authenticated either?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Shari law is their constitution.. To undermine the faith and the law is treason.

To commit murder of rape or grand larceny hurts the umma.. the community.. and to hurt the community is treason.

We use different words to separate a convicted felon from the society that he has betrayed by committing a crime, but the underlying premise is the same.

Except here, the "crime" is "not believing anymore".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Crimes that cause harm to the community.. that disrupt a peaceful, civil society are considered apostacy.. treason.

Why do we put people in prison in the US?

All kinds of reasons. Some better then others.
One things the west doesn't put people in jail for: apostacy.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sensitive? Crimes like rape, murder and grand larceny actually do hurt the community.. more than just getting your feelings hurt.

The "crime" being discussed here is none of those. The "crime" under discussion is apostacy.

 

[sooda]

Except here, the "crime" is "not believing anymore".

Murder, rape and pedophilia are apostasy crimes.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Murder, rape and pedophilia are apostasy crimes.

No, they are not.

Apostacy is literally just leaving the religion. No longer believing in it.

That's it.

 

[KT Shamim]

I noticed there are quite a few Islamic users in these forum, so I was curious if any believed in punishment, like the death penalty, for apostasy? It seems like 25 Muslim countries support the death penalty or extreme punishment for apostasy under Sharia law Laws Criminalizing Apostasy.
However, I noticed this line of thinking was not only constricted to these countries. As I recall, a survey was done fairly recently in the UK to determine what Muslims thought of the apostasy death punishment concept. Over 30% of the younger generation though it was acceptable.

So, does anyone here think apostasy should be punishable?

No Punishment for Apostasy
[Qur'an 3:73] And a section of the People of the Book say, ‘Believe in that which has been revealed unto the believers, in the early part of day, and disbelieve in the latter part thereof; perchance they may return;
How could they plan this if Islam prescribed punishments for apostasy?
[Qur'an 4:138] "Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the way."
[Qur'an 16:107] "Whoso disbelieves in Allah after he has believed — save him who is forced thereto while his heart finds peace in the faith — but such as open their breasts to disbelief, on them is Allah’s wrath; and they shall have a severe punishment."

 

[sooda]

No, they are not.

Apostacy is literally just leaving the religion. No longer believing in it.

That's it.

Where did you learn about Islam?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Where did you learn about Islam?

From my muslim family, from local imam's, from reading the quran, from documentaries, from internet articles.


According to the classical legal doctrine, apostasy in Islam includes not only an explicit renunciation of the Islamic faith (whether for another religion or irreligiosity), but also any deed or utterance implying unbelief, such as one denying a "fundamental tenet or creed" of Islam.

...

Until the late 19th century, the vast majority of Sunni and Shia jurists held that for adult men, apostasy from Islam was a crime as well as a sin, an act of treason punishable with the death penalty,[5][11] typically after a waiting period to allow the apostate time to repent and to return to Islam

Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia

 

[sooda]

From my muslim family, from local imam's, from reading the quran, from documentaries, from internet articles.

What does your family say about apostasy? I am curious as I think it varies from country to country.

Apostacy in Islam

The issue of apostasy (irtidād) and the punishment that Islam has prescribed for an apostate is one of the least known and understood part of the shari`ah (Islamic laws). After the concept of jihād, apostasy is most frequently cited by Christian missionaries as a negative dimension of Islam.

snip

Apostasy is Equal to Treason
Why does Islam not allow apostasy? Apostasy or irtidād in Islam is equal to treason.

The Western world limits treason to political and military terms. In the USA, treason consists "only in levying war against Americans, and in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." However, sometimes even the Western world stretches the concept of political treason to include things which are non-politics or non-military matters.

For example, in England, treason includes violating the King's consort, or raping the monarch's eldest married daughter, as well as the sexual violation of the wife of the eldest son and heir. Even now, "polluting" the Royal bloodline or obscuring it is included in the definition of treason.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What does your family say about apostasy?

It's leaving the religion (regardless if you convert to another religion or become atheist). It's what the word means.

Apostasy is Equal to Treason
Why does Islam not allow apostasy? Apostasy or irtidād in Islam is equal to treason.

The Western world limits treason to political and military terms. In the USA, treason consists "only in levying war against Americans, and in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." However, sometimes even the Western world stretches the concept of political treason to include things which are non-politics or non-military matters.

For example, in England, treason includes violating the King's consort, or raping the monarch's eldest married daughter, as well as the sexual violation of the wife of the eldest son and heir. Even now, "polluting" the Royal bloodline or obscuring it is included in the definition of treason.

That islam considers leaving the religion treason, does not change the fact that apostacy is just leaving the religion. To stop being a follower and believer of the religion.

That's what apostacy is.

I'm not really sure what exactly you are arguing for or about.
​

 

[charlie sc]

No.. not anything against scripture.. CRIMES

Muslims are forbidden criminal behaviors just like Christians.

Before I even attempt to analyse this, if I do, you seem to have gotten yourself into a logical dilemma.

How the hell do you differentiate between apostasy, where someone leaves their faith, and apostasy that's assigned to you by the state or others?
You might not think this is an important distinction, but then again I haven't heard of a rapist getting off their crime because they decided to rejoin their faith. However, for Muslims that leave their faith, they are given to option to rejoin the Muslim community and forgo any further punishment if they admit they were wrong. For instance, in the the OP link, for Yemen, "Furthermore, article 259 provides that individuals committing the act of apostasy may be punished with the death penalty.[83] It also waives the punishment for apostasy if the individual repents and returns to Islam and denounces his new faith. " Have you ever heard of a murderer being let off in an Islamic country because they denounced their new faith and/or returned to Islam?

I don't think you can reconcile this problem. Your attempt to merge apostasy, without properly considering it, is fraught with logical inconsistencies and nonsense. I don't necessarily think this is your fault, but it may be a problem with Islam, in general, that's not been considered. However, I am dubious that you represent the mainstream or any stream
You may ask why this distinction is necessary? I'd say just for logical and comprehension alone is sufficient, but without this distinction it would be like saying all killing is equal. However, there are distinctions between self-defence, murder, manslaughter, etc. Call the distinction what you will, for instance, apostasty-leaving-believe-because-i'm-too-sensitive, or whatever. Without it you make no sense.(edited spelling)