The Hijab Problem

[Remté]

So you see that problem in it too. We may be getting somewhere.

I noticed later my response was a bit out of place - what problem?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I noticed later my response was a bit out of place - what problem?

That the Quran appears to have a blame the victim mentality.

 

[Remté]

Still not right. Men should not have to lower their eyes either.

Applies to both men and women. It means don't stare lustfully. And in today's society with or without religion may be considered poor behaviour. This is guidance if you want to be virtuous.

 

[Remté]

That the Quran appears to have a blame the victim mentality.

I don't understand that.

What I was trying to say is that the Quran only tells both men and women to dress (and behave) with modesty. The Quran does not tell women to cover tueir hair or they face or their whole body. It simply says cover your bosom. Which in many countries is too required by the law - although when speaking of modesty we may presume the breasts perhaps should be fully covered.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Applies to both men and women. It means don't stare lustfully. And in today's society with or without religion may be considered poor behaviour. This is guidance if you want to be virtuous.

Yet since it is not well phrased it is often not interpreted that way. In fact there probably are Muslims that would disagree with you. Another problem with the Quran.

 

[Remté]

Yet since it is not well phrased it is often not interpreted that way. In fact there probably are Muslims that would disagree with you. Another problem with the Quran.

Yes, but that's because they confuse it with a Hadith. (Confuse or lie - I'm not sure) That idea doesn't come from the Quran.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, but that's because they confuse it with a Hadith. (Confuse or lie - I'm not sure) That idea doesn't come from the Quran.

It appears to come from the interpretation of the Quran. Different Muslims have different interpretations, and to me that is a clear flaw in the Quran.

 

[Remté]

It appears to come from the interpretation of the Quran. Different Muslims have different interpretations, and to me that is a clear flaw in the Quran.

It doesn't. It comes from a Hadith. A story that one day one of Muhammad's wives entered the room with lesser clothes and Muhammad turned away from her and said when a woman has reached maturity it is not proper for her to show to a man more of her than this and this - and he pointed at her hands and her face. This is considered by many a weak Hadith because the writer of it never met this wife and no one knows to whom the wife may have told this story to and from whom the writer may have heard it from.

Also there is the problem that it goes very differently than the Quran. If God wanted that to be done surely it would have been in the Quran which is complete and fully detailed. Besides women wearing head scarves of some sort were already common before that in many cultures. At the time of the Phrophet historically, women commonly did wear a kind of a scarf even in that culture, it hung loosely from their head and over their shoulders - despite this it was also common for their breasts to be bare. The head scarf was not for religious purposes.

 

[stvdv]

Yes, but that's because they confuse it with a Hadith. (Confuse or lie - I'm not sure) That idea doesn't come from the Quran.

It appears to come from the interpretation of the Quran. Different Muslims have different interpretations, and to me that is a clear flaw in the Quran.

Different interpretations need not be a flaw when it comes to interpretations related to (spiritual) insights (Koans are known tools to sharpen intellect)
But I guess you mean different interpretations leading to different extreme actions "some kill in name of Koran verse, others not ... same verse"

 

[Subduction Zone]

It doesn't. It comes from a Hadith. A story that one day one of Muhammad's wives entered the room with lesser clothes and Muhammad turned away from her and said when a woman has reached maturity it is not proper for her to show to a man more of her than this and this - and he pointed at her hands and her face. This is considered by many a weak Hadith because the writer of it never met this wife and no one knows to whom the wife may have told this story to and from whom the writer may have heard it from.

Also there is the problem that it goes very differently than the Quran. If God wanted that to be done surely it would have been in the Quran which is complete and fully detailed. Besides women wearing head scarves of some sort were already common before that in many cultures. At the time of the Phrophet historically, women commonly did wear a kind of a scarf even in that culture, it hung loosely from their head and over their shoulders - despite this it was also common for their breasts to be bare. The head scarf was not for religious purposes.

I was talking about the Quran in general. I don't know how you got that idea.

Tell me how you interpret Quran 4 89.

 

[Remté]

Different interpretations need not be a flaw when it comes to interpretations related to (spiritual) insights (Koans are known tools to sharpen intellect)
But I guess you mean different interpretations leading to different extreme actions "some kill in name of Koran verse, others not ... same verse"

There is no problem with interpreting those either.

 

[Remté]

I was talking about the Quran in general. I don't know how you got that idea.

Tell me how you interpret Quran 4 89.

It is about war against Muslims. If they go to war against you, kill them.

 

[aMirage]

I want to see 9-18-1 wearing a hijab first, with pictures. Then we can analyse his facial expressions. I'm sensing a very sexually repressed man who secretly has a boner for Islam.

 

[stvdv]

But I guess you mean different interpretations leading to different extreme actions "some kill in name of Koran verse, others not ... same verse"

There is no problem with interpreting those either.

No problem you say ... writing all comfortable from a safe place, behind your laptop

BUT

IF fanatic interpreters interpreted those Koran verses as "cut off Remte's head"
Then Remte kind of has a problem interpreting those verses afterwards

See, there "is kind of a problem" when verses get intepretated violently
Which has been done quite a bit in the past and even nowadays
Of course I can go all non-dualistic also "I am not the body"
But that is not realistic when heads are chopped off
Especially when it is your own head
Just be realistic

 

[Remté]

No problem you say ... writing all comfortable from a safe place, behind your laptop

BUT

IF fanatic interpreters interpreted those Koran verses as "cut off Remte's head"
Then Remte kind of has a problem interpreting those verses afterwards

See, there "is kind of a problem" when verses get intepretated violently
Which has been done quite a bit in the past and even nowadays
Of course I can go all non-dualistic also "I am not the body"
But that is not realistic when heads are chopped off
Especially when it is your own head
Just be realistic

All that nonsense has nothing to do with the Quran.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Hand waving is not a valid argument. Your inability to support your belief strengthens my argument that there is no rational reason to believe in a god. All it would take to refute me was one solid argument for a god. Do you have one? Nonsense about "inner sight" just won't cut it.

I've always found the "you won't believe in God until you believe in God" argument and the people who make it very frustrating. It's nothing but an "unlock the box with the key in the box" paradox.

 

[stvdv]

All that nonsense has nothing to do with the Quran.

Are you saying that ISIS actions have nothing to do with Koran?
It seems to me it has nothing to do with Bhagavad Gita, that we can say
And it also has nothing to do with Buddhism

 

[Remté]

Are you saying that ISIS actions have nothing to do with Koran?
It seems to me it has nothing to do with Bhagavad Gita, that we can say
And it also has nothing to do with Buddhism

Yes. It has nothing to do with the Quran. Save for that they may mention the name of the book.

 

[stvdv]

I want to see 9-18-1 wearing a hijab first, with pictures. Then we can analyse his facial expressions. I'm sensing a very sexually repressed man who secretly has a boner for Islam.

aMirage mirror: Is this sexual repression or sexual expression talking?

 

[stvdv]

Yes. It has nothing to do with the Quran. Save for that they may mention the name of the book.

Glad you mention "except that ISIS mentions the Koran"
That seems proof enough to me that ISIS has someting to do with the Koran
Where there is smoke there is fire usually

I do remember quite a few Koran verses
That can easily be "ISIS interpretated"
Some are even hard to "not ISIS interpretate"

I would agree if you would have said "ISIS has not so much to do with Spirituality, just don't go that far to say it has nothing to do with Koran"