The Hijab Problem

[Subduction Zone]

It is about war against Muslims. If they go to war against you, kill them.

Please re-read it. That is not what it says.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Taking into account their religious views it is understandable. The whole idea of the contest was made to provoke besides.

You are excusing them for being late ignorant. I guess it was okay for Christians to kill Muslims in the Crusades, at least by your " logic".

 

[Subduction Zone]

Because it is obvious that to understand it well you must be sincere and study, research - read.

One can be sincere and still realize that it is as nonsensical as any man made religion.

 

[Remté]

Please re-read it. That is not what it says.

That's the core meaning of it, in short. What exactly is the problem with it?

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's the core meaning of it, in short. What exactly is the problem with it?

Wrong, that is only the apologists excuse for it. I am no fan of apologetics since it is essentially lying for a religion.

 

[Remté]

Wrong, that is only the apologists excuse for it. I am no fan of apologetics since it is essentially lying for a religion.

You forgot to mention the problem.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You forgot to mention the problem.

Several problems ahve been explained to you. Right now it is rather obvious that you are a victim of cognitive dissonance.

 

[icehorse]

Because it is obvious that to understand it well you must be sincere and study, research - read.

You've done absolutely NOTHING to back up your claims. In the other hand, I've given you several pieces of evidence to back up my claims.

If you want to claim that you understand how the scholars from a certain sect of Islam interprets the Quran, I'm happy to grant you that. But as I've said, what I'm interested in is how everyday Muslims interpret the book. It's what happens in real life that I'm interested in.

So, I read one translation from cover to cover. Then I got two more translations, and I spot checked verses across the translations. What I discovered is that the three translations I have are very consistent with one another. And further, when I compare my notes from reading the book with various large polls taken all over the world, there is a strong correlation between a parsimonious interpretation of the Quran, and what millions of Muslims believe. Put more simply, there ARE clear messages in the Quran, and everyday Muslims believe them.

It seems as though you want us to believe that you know better than millions of Muslims?

 

[Remté]

You've done absolutely NOTHING to back up your claims. In the other hand, I've given you several pieces of evidence to back up my claims.

No matter how many times you repeat it doesn't make it true.

So, I read one translation from cover to cover. Then I got two more translations, and I spot checked verses across the translations. What I discovered is that the three translations I have are very consistent with one another.

That's nice, but reading the Quran once and claiming to understand it is absurd. It is complicated and the fact that you have no awarness of that is enough evidence that you don't understand its message.

And further, when I compare my notes from reading the book with various large polls taken all over the world, there is a strong correlation between a parsimonious interpretation of the Quran, and what millions of Muslims believe.

If you can provide those statistics the information quoted from a webpage where possible with a whole link attached I would be glad to look through it.

Put more simply, there ARE clear messages in the Quran, and everyday Muslims believe them.

The term everday Muslim is nonsensical.

 

[icehorse]

The term everday Muslim is nonsensical.

Would you agree that the vast majority of Muslims are not scriptural scholars? What I mean by "everyday Muslims" is Muslims who have read the Quran or parts of it, but who are not scholars. I believe that the vast majority of Muslims fit into that category.

 

[icehorse]

That's nice, but reading the Quran once and claiming to understand it is absurd. It is complicated and the fact that you have no awarness of that is enough evidence that you don't understand its message.

Well if you also claim the book is perfect, then logically that would prove that I'm correct and you're wrong. The reason I can say this is that the perfect book declares itself to be clear and easy to understand. So if you claim that it's not easy to understand, then you're also claiming indirectly that the book is in error by claiming itself to be clear.

In other words - given that the book claims to be clear and easy - you cannot make these two claims:

- it's perfect
- it's hard to understand.

That simply doesn't hold up logically.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No matter how many times you repeat it doesn't make it true.
That's nice, but reading the Quran once and claiming to understand it is absurd. It is complicated and the fact that you have no awarness of that is enough evidence that you don't understand its message.If you can provide those statistics the information quoted from a webpage where possible with a whole link attached I would be glad to look through it.
The term everday Muslim is nonsensical.

I will agree that the Quran is complicated at times. But those complications appear to be unnecessary. More evidence that it is just a man made religion.

 

[icehorse]

That's nice, but reading the Quran once and claiming to understand it is absurd. It is complicated and the fact that you have no awarness of that is enough evidence that you don't understand its message.

You misunderstand. I take Muslims at their word in this case. Muslims tell me that the book is perfect. That is the context in which I read and consider the book. If you're wiling to say that the book is flawed, then that would change a lot of my concerns. But as long as Muslims claim it's perfect, that gives me a clear context. It is in that context that I make my claims.

 

[stvdv]

More like half a year ago, wasn't it? Made by a political extremist who was arrested since then over his extremism in his own country.

And no they weren't angry Muslims willing to nuke Holland. They were understandable protests as a separate matter from the speeches of Rizvi.

Geert Wilders cancels Muhammad cartoon contest after Pakistan protests
The Dutch government had distanced itself from the competition but did not try to cancel the contest to protect Dutch freedom of speech rights.
Pakistan tried to take credit for the reverse, claiming it had exerted pressure on the Dutch government.
Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said the cancellation of the contest was a “great moral victory for the Muslim Ummah” and a “major crisis” had been averted.

These Muslim words say a lot to me. Then I need not read the Koran. If Muslims think they can impose Koran and Muhammed on other people and other countries they are VERY wrong, as a religion. That is a major flaw in those Muslims. Or do you not agree?

 

[stvdv]

If ISIS says they are following the Quran and they are using Muhammad as their role model, by what authority can you tell us that you've got it right and they've got it wrong? Sadly, they seem to have parsimony on their side

You imagine that because you can't understand the Quran.

That is belittling. Anyone can (is able to) understand the Koran if he puts in some effort.
And I believe that there is a large number of Muslims who don't understand the Koran (never read it)
Many just follow what their Imaam whispers in their ears.

 

[stvdv]

That's nice, but reading the Quran once and claiming to understand it is absurd. It is complicated and the fact that you have no awarness of that is enough evidence that you don't understand its message.

It's not complicated if you know verse 3:07

 

[Remté]

Would you agree that the vast majority of Muslims are not scriptural scholars? What I mean by "everyday Muslims" is Muslims who have read the Quran or parts of it, but who are not scholars. I believe that the vast majority of Muslims fit into that category.

But those "everyday Muslims" do not in general interpret the Quran the way you do.

 

[stvdv]

Would you agree that the vast majority of Muslims are not scriptural scholars? What I mean by "everyday Muslims" is Muslims who have read the Quran or parts of it, but who are not scholars. I believe that the vast majority of Muslims fit into that category.

I do not even think so. From what I have heard there are many, many Muslims who don't even study the Koran (they just listen to the Imaam)

Spoiler: How many Muslims study Koran

Often a question is raised, how much Muslims read Holy Quran. Almost 90% of all the Muslim are non-Arabs, and a general perception is that they read the translated version of Quran. However, this in not very true. Nowadays, because of the availability of internet, you can easily learn Quran from a professional Online Quran Tutor. But the fact is that there are very less Muslims who read the Holy Quran with translation. Most of these Muslims read and recite Quran for just getting reward from reciting the Arabic language.

The important point to keep in mind is that most people listen to Quran in a way like they are listening to music in the car or in the home. However, there are certain ethics that you must follow during the recitation of Quran. Recitation of Holy Quran must be done in a beautiful manner. Now if there is a question about how many Muslim recite Holy Quran everyday, then there would not be a satisfactory answer to this question. The truth is that there are only few Muslims who spend their best time of day in the recitation of Holy Quran.
Assalam-u-Alikum, this is my First Sharing in this forum,,, Insh-Allah i will try my level best to keep on sharing good islamic articles

How Many Muslims Read The Holy Quran?

 

[Remté]

Well if you also claim the book is perfect, then logically that would prove that I'm correct and you're wrong. The reason I can say this is that the perfect book declares itself to be clear and easy to understand. So if you claim that it's not easy to understand, then you're also claiming indirectly that the book is in error by claiming itself to be clear.

In other words - given that the book claims to be clear and easy - you cannot make these two claims:

- it's perfect
- it's hard to understand.

That simply doesn't hold up logically.

There is an ayat that says:

"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding." 3:7​

But the number one problem in the things said about the Quran in this discussion is the lack of context. You interpret verses without any context or understanding of history. Worse than that there has been at least one verse presented alone without the following one which was part of it. You take what you think is bad and then conveniently ignore the thing that follows that changes the entire meaning.

 

[icehorse]

But those "everyday Muslims" do not in general interpret the Quran the way you do.

I disagree. Large polls indicate that hundreds of millions of Muslims come to many of the same parsimonious conclusions that I do.