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The Hijab Problem

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Without twisting and turning this above ^ is called not believing in God which means a person believes God does not exist.

That can be found out^ they might not have the word God in his vocabularly, but if someone is able to communicate with them they can describe such a thing to them and ask whether they believe in it or not.

I never said what you say now (second quote) is not true
I only said that your fist quote is not true
 

Remté

Active Member
I've provided you a list of problems I see with the Quran. I've provided that list twice. I'll just pick a few items from the list:

I think the Quran promotes misogynistic and homophobic attitudes. In 2019, I find those to be huge flaws. IS that not enough detail for you?

(notice that this is now the 3rd time I've mentioned these two specific issues (among others))
I said details.

There is only one small part of one surah in the whole of the Quran that has something to do with men approching men. But even that minor part is not that simple. In fact it isn't even said anywhere that those people were homosexuals. In the ancient Greece it was normal for a man to have a young male whore. It didn't mean they were homosexual.
 

Remté

Active Member
I never said what you say now (second quote) is not true
I only said that your fist quote is not true
You gave it as an example and I feel it didn't work. Still I disagree. It's just twisting words so you can pretend you're neutral about something.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I said details.

There is only one small part of one surah in the whole of the Quran that has something to do with men approching men. But even that minor part is not that simple. In fact it isn't even said anywhere that those people were homosexuals. In the ancient Greece it was normal for a man to have a young male whore. It didn't mean they were homosexual.

For the sake of discussion, let's take everything you said about the Quran as true. What concerns me is how millions of Muslims think it's a good idea to throw homosexuals off buildings.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
When I read a comment about the hijab, I substitute something else to see the result. To me, a topless women substitution fits pretty well:

[Not allowing women to go topless] is a symptom (result/consequence) of the underlying problem of misogyny (covetousness of women by men) and a degrading (and degraded) solution to another underlying problem (that is) sexual degeneracy;

And your conclusion based on this is?
 

Remté

Active Member
For the sake of discussion, let's take everything you said about the Quran as true. What concerns me is how millions of Muslims think it's a good idea to throw homosexuals off buildings.
Hadiths. But before you use numbers maybe a bit of statistical evidence?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
You gave it as an example and I feel it didn't work. Still I disagree. It's just twisting words so you can pretend you're neutral about something.

You are the one twisting my words. I never twisted words. I described my own experience, who are you to judge what I felt those years. You never met me, that's quite arrogant to tell me that I pretend to be neutral. Are you pretending to be Allah, all knowing?
The phrase "Not believing in God" simply means "not giving it any thought" to me. I did not give it any thought for decades. I did not "believe", nor did I not "not believe". I rather skip the step "believing". I like to experience and then I know. That makes more sense to me.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I disagree
In a debate the other side does not get to make up terms and then demand that the other prove that. One can demand that others support their claims. If you read back in this thread you will see where I gave specific examples and quoted sources, with working links, that supported my claims. I merely asked you to do what I had done.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
So no proof at all.

You might want to study logical fallacies a little:

Thou shalt not commit logical fallacies

Your last one was an appeal to authority.

We’re getting a lot off topic here from the Hijab so I will just add unrelated comments in parenthesis further below.

Quran 24:30 speaks about women dressing modestly. It makes sense that the Quran wants to create a respectful attitude towards women and seeks to protect their dignity sonas not to be seen as sex objects. But note here it is not a forceful imposition but instead an act of love for women.. Because of this verse many women like to wear it.

30 Speak unto the true believers, that they restrain their eyes, and keep themselves from immodest actions: this will be more pure for them; for GOD is well acquainted with that which they do. And speak unto the believing women, that they restrain their eyes, and preserve their modesty, and discover not their ornaments, except what necessarily appeareth thereof; and let them throw their veils over their bosoms,

We shall have to continue this discussion below elsewhere out of courtesy to the OP of this thread.


(I have found all forms of human knowledge to be flawed and unreliable as all human reasoning and logic is finite and prone to error.

But the Divine Manifestations possess infallible unerring knowledge and offer it to us in each age. Therefore Baha’u’llah has said the the remedy for the ills of this age is the recognition of all humanity as one race and the unity of mankind.

How did He know that when He said taught world unity (1863) that technologies would be invented that would bring the world together physically without which His teachings based upon the unity of mankind would be completely useless?

We say that because He had innate Divine knowledge and already knew the needs of our age beforehand. He taught things such as the need for a world language, a world script, religious unity, the equality of men and women. He foresaw world citizenship when He wrote ‘the world is but one country and mankind it’s citizens’. It Is a topic worthy of investigation I feel.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
We’re getting a lot off topic here from the Hijab so I will just add unrelated comments in parenthesis further below.

Quran 24:30 speaks about women dressing modestly. It makes sense that the Quran wants to create a respectful attitude towards women and seeks to protect their dignity sonas not to be seen as sex objects. But note here it is not a forceful imposition but instead an act of love for women.. Because of this verse many women like to wear it.

30 Speak unto the true believers, that they restrain their eyes, and keep themselves from immodest actions: this will be more pure for them; for GOD is well acquainted with that which they do. And speak unto the believing women, that they restrain their eyes, and preserve their modesty, and discover not their ornaments, except what necessarily appeareth thereof; and let them throw their veils over their bosoms,

We shall have to continue this discussion below elsewhere out of courtesy to the OP of this thread.


(I have found all forms of human knowledge to be flawed and unreliable as all human reasoning and logic is finite and prone to error.

But the Divine Manifestations possess infallible unerring knowledge and offer it to us in each age. Therefore Baha’u’llah has said the the remedy for the ills of this age is the recognition of all humanity as one race and the unity of mankind.

How did He know that when He said taught world unity (1863) that technologies would be invented that would bring the world together physically without which His teachings based upon the unity of mankind would be completely useless?

We say that because He had innate Divine knowledge and already knew the needs of our age beforehand. He taught things such as the need for a world language, a world script, religious unity, the equality of men and women. He foresaw world citizenship when He wrote ‘the world is but one country and mankind it’s citizens’. It Is a topic worthy of investigation I feel.

The problem is that women should not have to dress "modestly" to have men treat them appropriately. This is a shifting of blame. A flaw in the Quran. A "true believer" need not restrain his eyes.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
The problem is that women should not have to dress "modestly" to have men treat them appropriately. This is a shifting of blame. A flaw in the Quran. A "true believer" need not restrain his eyes.

I should have included the full quote with regards to this topic. The quote before already addresses the men but places the duty on both sexes to be chaste.

24:30,31

30 Tell believing men to lower their gaze and remain chaste. That is purer for them. God is aware of what they do.

31 Say to believing women that they should lower their gaze and remain chaste and not to reveal their adornments—save what is normally apparent thereof, and they should fold their shawls over their bosoms.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That's not in the Quran.

Quran Sura 24

30 Tell believing men to lower their gaze and remain chaste. That is purer for them. God is aware of what they do. 31 Say to believing women that they should lower their gaze and remain chaste and not to reveal their adornments—save what is normally apparent thereof, and they should fold their shawls over their bosoms.
 

Remté

Active Member
Quran Sura 24

30 Tell believing men to lower their gaze and remain chaste. That is purer for them. God is aware of what they do. 31 Say to believing women that they should lower their gaze and remain chaste and not to reveal their adornments—save what is normally apparent thereof, and they should fold their shawls over their bosoms.
Yes. But is often misinterpreted to mean the traditional clothing. You use here the shawl and veil but those are only optional words to place there. Perhaps my answer seemed out of place since the poster wasn't necessarily referring to this directly. But to ask women to dress modestly isn't asking for much. Nor is to "lower some of your gaze".
 

aMirage

Look outside, seek and observe.
The hijab is a symptom (result/consequence) of the underlying problem of misogyny (covetousness of women by men) and a degrading (and degraded) solution to another underlying problem (that is) sexual degeneracy; which pervades not only Islam, but essentially all religious institutions.

Maybe you should buy a hijab and start wearing one? you know, have some fun occasionally?

p.s. you sound really miserable, lol.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I should have included the full quote with regards to this topic. The quote before already addresses the men but places the duty on both sexes to be chaste.

24:30,31

30 Tell believing men to lower their gaze and remain chaste. That is purer for them. God is aware of what they do.

31 Say to believing women that they should lower their gaze and remain chaste and not to reveal their adornments—save what is normally apparent thereof, and they should fold their shawls over their bosoms.
Still not right. Men should not have to lower their eyes either. One problem with Islam is the treating of women as property. Though that is true at least somewhat for all Abrahamic religions. Christianity and Judaism have grown out of that to a fair degree, not perfect but better than the competition.
 
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