The Hijab Problem

[Epic Beard Man]

Yes, I do. And I showed that it was obligatory..

All laws implied in Muslim governments do so under the interpretation by Qur'an. this is in turn interpreted by a scholar in Islamic jurisprudence. All interpretations of such laws are not equal. Clearly there are legal disagreements among Muslim scholars

5 Muslim Scholars On The Permissibility Of Not Wearing The Headscarf

You may want to read the above. In western countries you'll have more laws that impose religious freedoms than anything. you keep saying this is more than Qur'an but the fact of the matter it is about the Qur'an that is how Muslim countries develop their "religious laws."

 

[Subduction Zone]

All laws implied in Muslim governments do so under the interpretation by Qur'an. this is in turn interpreted by a scholar in Islamic jurisprudence. All interpretations of such laws are not equal. Clearly there are legal disagreements among Muslim scholars

5 Muslim Scholars On The Permissibility Of Not Wearing The Headscarf

You may want to read the above. In western countries you'll have more laws that impose religious freedoms than anything. you keep saying this is more than Qur'an but the fact of the matter it is about the Qur'an that is how Muslim countries develop their "religious laws."

I really do not care about the arguments. Those are a dime a dozen. I care about the results. The results that you have been ignoring. The religious quite often use "No True Scotsman" argument when they have no real defense.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So what? Should I quote from the Bible of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

My only point is we humans are not infallible. We do not possesss flawless knowledge. We have finite understanding but God knows all and sees all and He is the best witness as to what really happened as He was there. We were not.

 

[Subduction Zone]

My only point is we humans are not infallible. We do not possesss flawless knowledge. We have finite understanding but God knows all and sees all and He is the best witness as to what really happened as He was there. We were not.

Of course we are not infallible. No one claimed that. And if you want to claim a God you need to provide evidence for the existence of one. Barring evidence the proper behavior is a lack of belief.

 

[loverofhumanity]

All laws implied in Muslim governments do so under the interpretation by Qur'an. this is in turn interpreted by a scholar in Islamic jurisprudence. All interpretations of such laws are not equal. Clearly there are legal disagreements among Muslim scholars

5 Muslim Scholars On The Permissibility Of Not Wearing The Headscarf

You may want to read the above. In western countries you'll have more laws that impose religious freedoms than anything. you keep saying this is more than Qur'an but the fact of the matter it is about the Qur'an that is how Muslim countries develop their "religious laws."

I think there are many Muslim women who like to wear the hijab.

Are western women really wearing what they want? I say no, it’s the fashion industry that tells a lot of women what to wear.

https://montrealgazette.com/news/lo...nt-people-to-really-hear-me-and-really-see-me

 

[oldbadger]

Because scripturally, there is no verse that indicates the Hijab is compulsory. Countries have laws, and countries that impose laws for articles of clothing such as countries like Iran and Indonesia typically go by a particular fiqh or Islamic jurisprudence. But Hijab is never forced:.......

You know and I know that islamophobes ripping in to Islam over items like the hijab are quite shallow.

Let us suppose that Muslim women had to wear high-heeled shoes. The world's islamophobes would be up in arms over that.... they would. Nearly every middle aged western woman that I know has foot complaints, all caused by wearing high heels in youth. They felt that they HAD to wear high-heels.

My grandmother was severely disabled through wearing 'heels', as was my late wife. High heels are not good for ankles, heels, toes or feet!

I wonder what hijab objectors think about the pressures that western women feel exposed to which attracts them to breast surgery, botox, body-control clothing, expensive make-up, hair treatments et al

The debate proposal is weak.....

 

[loverofhumanity]

Of course we are not infallible. No one claimed that. And if you want to claim a God you need to provide evidence for the existence of one. Barring evidence the proper behavior is a lack of belief.

We all have free will so that is something that’s up to us to find out for ourself or not.

Darkness is proof that light exists for it is only manifest in the absence of light. So ignorance is the lack of knowledge. Because there is ignorance is proof that knowledge exists for ignorance is but lack of knowledge. So too with imperfection. It implies there is perfection for without perfection imperfection could not be imagined. The fact of our imperfection proves beyond doubt that there exists a Perfect One.

 

[oldbadger]

I think there are many Muslim women who like to wear the hijab.

Are western women really wearing what they want? I say no, it’s the fashion industry that tells a lot of women what to wear.

Why I wear the hijab: 'I want people to really hear me and really see me'

I just wrote a similar kind of post to yours, only to see yours just above when mine was entered.

Pressures on western women about clothing, body enhancement, etc etc are so intense that to criticise an item of clothing which takes all such pressures away is absurd. In may ways the hijab is an equaliser; as is loose clothing.

Girls who go to school (here) and do not wear the latest fashion trend in clothing or 'brand-tags' get bullied! I'm more worried about that, frankly.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Of course. But apart from those Muslim majority countries that stumbled into having oil, how many are not impoverished? A few, perhaps Malaysia, but not many

The fact that Hindu majority countries are impoverished and thus have real human rights issues does not post hoc mean Hinduism is the cause. Attacking Hinduism would be short sighted, prejudicial, tunnel visioned and worst of all, ineffectual.

The problem of misogyny has many sources. How about we divide and conquer? One of those sources is Islam. Why can't we put some of our efforts into attacking that source?

See last. If you would rather see a Muslim woman set aside her head garment than see the same woman at a university and still as a Muslim then I think your priorities need rearrangement before you'll get to the real source of the problem, much less attack it effectively. In the most effective places, the solution to Christian homophobia wasn't getting rid of Christianity. In actuality, attacking christianity and trying to extract it away only made human rights situations worse.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I just wrote a similar kind of post to yours, only to see yours just above when mine was entered.

Pressures on western women about clothing, body enhancement, etc etc are so intense that to criticise an item of clothing which takes all such pressures away is absurd. In may ways the hijab is an equaliser; as is loose clothing.

Girls who go to school (here) and do not wear the latest fashion trend in clothing or 'brand-tags' get bullied! I'm more worried about that, frankly.

Hi oldbadger. Frankly I’m getting a bit tired of people trying to use everything under the sun to demonize one section of humanity when all society is basically guilty of the same attitude towards women. The thing that the hijab reflects to me is modesty which a lot of our women could learn from. To be modest is a great quality rather than flaunting everything.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Hi oldbadger. Frankly I’m getting a bit tired of people trying to use everything under the sun to demonize one section of humanity when all society is basically guilty of the same attitude towards women. The thing that the hijab reflects to me is modesty which a lot of our women could learn from. To be modest is a great quality rather than flaunting everything.

Frankly I think we could use a lot less body shaming. Either for wearing more or less. People shouldn't take the clothing style choices of other people as an affront unless there's some actual hygienic risk there.
Women who wear less aren't sluts. Women who wear more aren't prudes.
Women who wear makeup or heels could feel like society is forcing them to and chafe against it. Or they could be doing it because they like how they look in it.
Women could choose not to wear makeup or shave as a statement against those societal pressures or because it takes too much much time to be worth it to them.
The same is true of men in all respects. Wear casual or formal, wear makeup or none. Put on a dress if that makes you happy. Nobody else should care.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Frankly I think we could use a lot less body shaming. Either for wearing more or less. People shouldn't take the clothing style choices of other people as an affront unless there's some actual hygienic risk there.
Women who wear less aren't sluts. Women who wear more aren't prudes. The same is true of men.

I think you’ve struck a very mature and balanced view. Diversity should be appreciated just as we like different foods or the different coloured flowers in a garden. Moderation I think is the best way to go.

 

[stvdv]

Please, your false accusations get a bit tiring. And it is extremely ironic that an article on wearing the hijab for modesty features a woman wearing a rather amazing amount of makeup in a picture that is far from modest.

False accusations? You made the claim women are forced to wear the hijab. I produced an article that contradicts that claim. Not my fault you don’t do your homework before you type.

Seems to me you compare apples to pears. Seems to me just some Muslim propaganda
Muslims tend to "not want to see Islam flaws" and fabricating all kind of funny ways out.

So because I point out facts it is propaganda? I'm sorry if facts bother you.

You missed my point about "comparing apples to pears":
Your article is about Muslim women in London (the West) wanting to wear a hijab. Of course there is no problem to wear the hijab in London, it's London you know, there is no sharia Law like in the Middle East.

This thread is about "female suppression in the Middle East". Hence my remark about propaganda, because you make it seem that there is no problem with female suppression in Islam (see how Muslimas choose the hijab article). This thread is not just about hijab or no hijab at all. The hijab in this thread was taken as a symbol to show that Muslims don't want to "see the flaws in Islam". Many Muslims tend to cover up their women as they cover up the flaws in Islam/Koran (I did not meet 1 Muslim who admitted openly "yes there are flaws in Islam and Koran". When they do, then no need for me to point this out).

If you would have said: "In the Middle East there is a major problem with violence against women. Many Muslims and even scholars say the hijab is a must, because the Muslim men have strong sex-drives and can't control their sex urges (I saw ca. 3 youtubes where Imaams declared this). But the problem is not the hijab, because see my article about 4 Muslim women in London who choose to wear the hijab. One problem is that `these Muslim men` don't take responsibilty for their sex-urges and impose hijab on the women etc.etc.".

Then I would be totally fine. Then you would have put it in the right perspective, in line with this thread. The way you put it, is similar to what I see Muslims do all the time. Using smart deceptive ways to avoid the confrontation "there are many flaws in Islam AND Islam is completely linked with Koran; hence there are flaws in Koran also".

I don't get it, why it is so difficult to admit "flaws in Islam and Koran". I know that narcissists can't admit their flaws, but normal people can.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I really do not care about the arguments. Those are a dime a dozen. I care about the results. The results that you have been ignoring. The religious quite often use "No True Scotsman" argument when they have no real defense.

Ok, whatever you say bro

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I think there are many Muslim women who like to wear the hijab.

Are western women really wearing what they want? I say no, it’s the fashion industry that tells a lot of women what to wear.

Why I wear the hijab: 'I want people to really hear me and really see me'

What was your point in addressing that to me though?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You missed my point about "comparing apples to pears":
Your article is about Muslim women in London (the West) wanting to wear a hijab. Of course there is no problem to wear the hijab in London, it's London you know, there is no sharia Law like in the Middle East.

This thread is about "female suppression in the Middle East". Hence my remark about propaganda, because you make it seem that there is no problem with female suppression in Islam (see how Muslimas choose the hijab article). This thread is not just about hijab or no hijab at all. The hijab in this thread was taken as a symbol to show that Muslims don't want to "see the flaws in Islam". Many Muslims tend to cover up their women as they cover up the flaws in Islam/Koran (I did not meet 1 Muslim who admitted openly "yes there are flaws in Islam and Koran". When they do, then no need for me to point this out).

If you would have said: "In the Middle East there is a major problem with violence against women. Many Muslims and even scholars say the hijab is a must, because the Muslim men have strong sex-drives and can't control their sex urges (I saw ca. 3 youtubes where Imaams declared this). But the problem is not the hijab, because see my article about 4 Muslim women in London who choose to wear the hijab. One problem is that `these Muslim men` don't take responsibilty for their sex-urges and impose hijab on the women etc.etc.".

Then I would be totally fine. Then you would have put it in the right perspective, in line with this thread. The way you put it, is similar to what I see Muslims do all the time. Using smart deceptive ways to avoid the confrontation "there are many flaws in Islam AND Islam is completely linked with Koran; hence there are flaws in Koran also".

I don't get it, why it is so difficult to admit "flaws in Islam and Koran". I know that narcissists can't admit their flaws, but normal people can.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here and whether this was towards me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What was your point in addressing that to me though?

I can’t remember now so I apologise. Just disregard it.

 

[stvdv]

Please, your false accusations get a bit tiring. And it is extremely ironic that an article on wearing the hijab for modesty features a woman wearing a rather amazing amount of makeup in a picture that is far from modest.

I think that's a very good point. And when one is modest, then one don't have to advertise it either. Advertising this seems to me even more like propaganda for Islam; to show that Islam is not so bad towards women. Look how free these Muslimas are: Hijab + makeup.

That article about the 4 London Muslimas would be great if:
1) It were done in Saudi Arabia
2) Done by 1000 Muslimas with hijab (with or without makeup)
3) Done by 1000 Muslimas without hijab (with or without makeup) ... this must be added to be convincing that Muslims give Muslimas a free choice in wearing hijab

That would prove to me that something changed in Islam. 4 Muslimas in London proves nothing; it proves the opposite to me

 

[stvdv]

If the hijab was freely chosen by women I would have no problem with it. The fact is that it is not. It is forced on them and is a sign of sexual inequality since there is no similar pressure put on men to wear a garment to cover themselves up. If a women should be shamed for not covering her face the same should apply to men.

Muslim Women On Why They Do Or Don't Wear A Hijab 2018 | Glamour UK
The fact people liked your post is a scary revelation that ignorance of culture and faith is an ever growing problem. I suggest you read the link.

Many Muslims tend to cover up their women as they cover up the flaws in Islam/Koran

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here and whether this was towards me.

Because you made the reply in red. Of course @Subduction Zone made a small mistake IMO, saying "it's forced on them" (indicating it's forced on all), but I interpreted it (I tend to read between the lines, not trying to find grammer faults with others, but get to the major issues), that he meant "it's forced on many of them", and that is a fact.

If you use your 4 exceptions to prove "it's forced on none" would be a similar mistake. Because you seemed to have taken Subductions Zone literally (reading your reply in red), I took your line also literally. Maybe/probably my mistake.

It is also a fact that many Muslims do not admit "flaws in Islam/Koran", and this is the cause of many problems (many Christians can't admit either). This I see as a major "ignorance", which is leading to suspicion of Islam, and also to whatever related to Islam (hijab).

So I better ask you 2 simple questions (instead of interpreting your words in the wrong way):
"Do you see flaws in Islam and Koran?"
"Do you see flaws in how many Muslimas are treated in the Middle East?"

 

[Remté]

Because you made the reply in red. Of course @Subduction Zone made a small mistake IMO, saying "it's forced on them" (indicating it's forced on all), but I interpreted it (I tend to read between the lines, not trying to find grammer faults with others, but get to the major issues), that he meant "it's forced on many of them", and that is a fact.

If you use your 4 exceptions to prove "it's forced on none" would be a similar mistake. Because you seemed to have taken Subductions Zone literally (reading your reply in red), I took your line also literally. Maybe/probably my mistake.

It is also a fact that many Muslims do not admit "flaws in Islam/Koran", and this is the cause of many problems (many Christians can't admit either). This I see as a major "ignorance", which is leading to suspicion of Islam, and also to whatever related to Islam (hijab).

So I better ask you 2 simple questions (instead of interpreting your words in the wrong way):
"Do you see flaws in Islam and Koran?"
"Do you see flaws in how many Muslimas are treated in the Middle East?"

You've been asking about the flaws in the Quran. Isn't it about time you tell us what you think they are?