The Hijab Problem

[icehorse]

Let us suppose that Muslim women had to wear high-heeled shoes. The world's islamophobes would be up in arms over that.... they would. Nearly every middle aged western woman that I know has foot complaints, all caused by wearing high heels in youth. They felt that they HAD to wear high-heels.

This is a false dilemma. How about a society in which women aren't coerced from either end of the spectrum?

 

[icehorse]

You've been asking about the flaws in the Quran. Isn't it about time you tell us what you think they are?

Off the top of my head:

- it's largely plagiarized
- it's often incoherent (in other words, it's inconsistent with it's own messages)
- it's misogynistic
- it's homophobic
- it's anti-semetic
- it's supremacist
- it's despises non-Muslims

(I know this wasn't directed at me, but I couldn't resist)

 

[Remté]

Off the top of my head:

- it's largely plagiarized
- it's often incoherent (in other words, it's inconsistent with it's own messages)
- it's misogynistic
- it's homophobic
- it's anti-semetic
- it's supremacist
- it's despises non-Muslims

(I know this wasn't directed at me, but I couldn't resist)

How?

 

[Subduction Zone]

How so? Your own shadow is proof the sun exists. Not weak at all but exactly so. You couldn’t produce a shadow without light. I’d like to see you prove that darkness is an existence of itself and not the absence of light.

The same goes for imperfection. Or did you design the human body or think it came about randomly without any intelligence involved?

The entire universe is governed by laws it cannot deviate a hairbreadth from. So intelligent laws just put themselves in place? Yet laws have no conscious will of their own.

When we leave a higher intelligence out of the equation that is indeed a fallacy and superstition galore because nothing can deviate from the laws governing it from a plant to a stone, animal, a star or a human which proves there’s a Supreme Intelligence that put all these things in place as we did not create or design these things.

Every item on earth had a builder, designer or maker. So too does nature and humanity and existence around us. There is nothing that does not have a maker. Not a car or a house or the human body. Very logical and common sense.

No, my shadow does not prove that the sun exists, it only proves at best that I am blocking some source of light. But not even that. Multiple sources of light could illuminate an area and leave a Subduction Zone shaped area not illuminated.

The human body is the result of evolution, a well understood concept, no intelligence needed. A "gee whiz" argument is even weaker

Laws are not "intelligent". Laws only describe what we observe in the universe. To call them laws in the same sense as man made ones is an equivocation fallacy.

You need to find evidence for your god, your arguments do not even begin to show that there is a god. All you have are logical fallacies at this point in time. Most atheists are such because there is no rational evidence for a god. For the same reason that you probably do not believe in fairies I do not believe in gods.

T

 

[oldbadger]

This is a false dilemma. How about a society in which women aren't coerced from either end of the spectrum?

Name it.

 

[oldbadger]

Pointing out a flaw in Islam does not make one an Islamphobe. The hijab and the undue pressure to wear it is a symptom of the flaws in Islam, it alone does not prove the religion to be evil. You mentioned bullying over fashion in another post of yours. That is a symptom of what is wrong with western culture. It alone does not prove western culture to be evil. The difference between the two is that we in the West can see that our bullying is wrong and are trying to do something about it. That is not the case with Islam and the hijab. If one does not recognize one's errors one cannot correct them.

So how come bullying (in the west) has never ended?

You're having a laugh, must be....

 

[icehorse]

Name it.

I don't need to. We have our ability to imagine. Throughout history we have imagined better futures and then manifested them. So, there are probably middle-ground societies in the world today, not perfect but better than the extremes we've been discussing. And even if there are not, we can imagine such a society. It's not EITHER Hijabs OR stiletto heels, it can be something in the middle.

 

[icehorse]

How?

More sea-lioning! You really have to stop doing that or no one will converse with you.

What's required to arrive at these conclusions is to read the book, which I have. I chose to trust the top Islamic scholars who spent years working on translations. Have you actually read the book?

 

[Subduction Zone]

So how come bullying (in the west) has never ended?

You're having a laugh, must be....

Because humans are not perfect. The problem is continually addressed and is improving. Is that so hard to understand? The problem with Islam is that most of its adherents will not admit to its flaws and therefore they cannot take steps to fix existing problems. All one sees in this thread are ignorance and denial when it comes to flaws. Or shifting the blame. Claiming that a behavior is not in the Quran when many if not most of the imams and other leaders interpret their holy books so that those behaviors are supported by it.

 

[Remté]

More sea-lioning! You really have to stop doing that or no one will converse with you.

What's required to arrive at these conclusions is to read the book, which I have. I chose to trust the top Islamic scholars who spent years working on translations. Have you actually read the book?

You made a list that is absolutely useless without any reasoning or explanation. I asked you to explain. It's up to you to do it or not.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Because humans are not perfect. The problem is continually addressed and is improving. Is that so hard to understand? The problem with Islam is that most of its adherents will not admit to its flaws and therefore they cannot take steps to fix existing problems. All one sees in this thread are ignorance and denial when it comes to flaws. Or shifting the blame. Claiming that a behavior is not in the Quran when many if not most of the imams and other leaders interpret their holy books so that those behaviors are supported by it.

This is not a problem of Islam or even religion but a problem of ideologues. You have to break through the same barriers of any group, including secular irreligious groups, to improve. In fact I would say in some respects the anti-theist and anti-religious are more vulnerable to it in that part of their identity is they don't have it, so they often miss it when they do. E.g. Brights, Atheist+, anti-religious Incels, members of political parties which are vehemanently secular but still traditionalist or authoritarian etc etc.

Anyone can have a traditionally held belief and hurt others with it. Anyone can also reform, including scriptural literalists. We've seen it happen. We just have to figure out a way that best encourages it.

 

[icehorse]

You made a list that is absolutely useless without any reasoning or explanation. I asked you to explain. It's up to you to do it or not.

There is a point when it's NOT reasonable to be asked to explain that which is self-evident and/or common knowledge. Words have meanings. Sentences have meaning. The Quran declares itself to be easy to understand and clear. These messages of clarity, Islamic scholars have already decided, were accurate. So, if world class scholars have told us that the Quran is easy to understand and clear, then it's more than reasonable for me - or anyone - to read the book and understand what its messages are. It's messages are indeed quite clear.

If you have read the book, then you don't need me to lead you by the nose to the verses that are misogynistic or homophobic or anti-semitic or whatever. It's all in the book. It's all easily google-able.

I can provide a link to a list of over 500 times that the Quran is critical of non-Muslims. Would you care to go through that list and explain to us why we're reading each of those 500 instances incorrectly?

I can summarize this by asking whether you actually want to engage in a conversation or debate, or whether your goal is simply to try to confuse the conversation that the rest of us are having?

 

[Remté]

There is a point when it's NOT reasonable to be asked to explain that which is self-evident and/or common knowledge. Words have meanings. Sentences have meaning. The Quran declares itself to be easy to understand and clear. These messages of clarity, Islamic scholars have already decided, were accurate. So, if world class scholars have told us that the Quran is easy to understand and clear, then it's more than reasonable for me - or anyone - to read the book and understand what its messages are. It's messages are indeed quite clear.

If you have read the book, then you don't need me to lead you by the nose to the verses that are misogynistic or homophobic or anti-semitic or whatever. It's all in the book. It's all easily google-able.

I can provide a link to a list of over 500 times that the Quran is critical of non-Muslims. Would you care to go through that list and explain to us why we're reading each of those 500 instances incorrectly?

I can summarize this by asking whether you actually want to engage in a conversation or debate, or whether your goal is simply to try to confuse the conversation that the rest of us are having?

So you don't understand your point well enough to explain.

 

[icehorse]

So you don't understand your point well enough to explain.

You DO know - don't you - that many people are reading this thread? Do you really think you're fooling anyone? I would say that I've been more patient with you than most would be. It's time to up your game dude.

 

[Remté]

You DO know - don't you - that many people are reading this thread? Do you really think you're fooling anyone? I would say that I've been more patient with you than most would be. It's time to up your game dude.

i think that's a way of manipulation and I resent it.

If you don't want to, again, provide any reasoning or evidence beside your argument, let's not talk. It's fine.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't need to. We have our ability to imagine. Throughout history we have imagined better futures and then manifested them. So, there are probably middle-ground societies in the world today, not perfect but better than the extremes we've been discussing. And even if there are not, we can imagine such a society. It's not EITHER Hijabs OR stiletto heels, it can be something in the middle.

You see? Just cutting straight to a simple question like 'name it'....... nobbled you.

 

[icehorse]

i think that's a way of manipulation and I resent it.

If you don't want to, again, provide any reasoning or evidence beside your argument, let's not talk. It's fine.

I believe I've provided more than enough explanation for my claims, so I guess we're done for this time.

 

[icehorse]

You see? Just cutting straight to a simple question like 'name it'....... nobbled you.

If I were to claim the earth is roughly a sphere, would you expect me to have to provide evidence for that claim?

If I were to say that much of the Bible has to do with Jesus, would you ask me to provide evidence for that claim?

This is not about not being able to provide evidence. This is about when asking for evidence is reasonable and when it's not.

 

[oldbadger]

Because humans are not perfect. The problem is continually addressed and is improving. Is that so hard to understand?

You got half of that right, so 5/10.
The problem is continually addressed, but has never improved.

The problem with Islam is that most of its adherents will not admit to its flaws and therefore they cannot take steps to fix existing problems. All one sees in this thread are ignorance and denial when it comes to flaws. Or shifting the blame.

You probably didn't notice, but many of us pushing back at this thread are not Muslims.

Claiming that a behavior is not in the Quran when many if not most of the imams and other leaders interpret their holy books so that those behaviors are supported by it.

So a whole bunch of countries are attached to tenets, rules, expectations and laws which you don't like. It can't just be Islamic countries...... can't be...... and so, it's up to the citizens and subjects of those countries to decide what they want. Let's face it, the west only interferes when value, riches, money, power, status and wealth are involved.
But where I live Muslim women are being given support towards equality in ever way, and if they still want to wear the hijab, a very few of them, for whatever reasons, then that's their prerogative.

 

[oldbadger]

If I were to claim the earth is roughly a sphere, would you expect me to have to provide evidence for that claim?

If I were to say that much of the Bible has to do with Jesus, would you ask me to provide evidence for that claim?

This is not about not being able to provide evidence. This is about when asking for evidence is reasonable and when it's not.

You cannot hide behind bad analogies and waffle!

Just name it!