The Hijab Problem

[Epic Beard Man]

4 women making a claim in England is "contradicting @Subduction Zone claim"?
Are you serious? What about the 1000 million other Muslims in Muslim countries?

Because scripturally, there is no verse that indicates the Hijab is compulsory. Countries have laws, and countries that impose laws for articles of clothing such as countries like Iran and Indonesia typically go by a particular fiqh or Islamic jurisprudence. But Hijab is never forced:

"Some women choose to wear the hijab because it is a national tradition of their country of origin, or because it is the norm in their local area, city or country. Others wear it to demonstrate their commitment to dressing modestly and for religious reasons. Like any item of clothing, some women wear the hijab for specific occasions, such as for family or community events, or during particular times of day but take it off at other times, such as wearing the hijab to and from school or work but taking it off while studying or working.

A very small minority may claim to be forced to wear the hijab. However, many studies show that in fact Muslim women choose to wear the hijab as a way of showing self-control, power and agency."

Five truths about the hijab that need to be told

Seems to me you compare apple to pears. Seems to me just some Muslim propaganda
Muslims tend to "not want to see Islam flaws" and fabricating all kind of funny ways out.

So because I point out facts it is propaganda? I'm sorry if facts bother you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Modern pornography from what I can gather began mostly in Paris, UK and the USA. The USA to my knowledge is the largest promoter of porn in the world.

Pornography - Wikipedia

Aisha

There is a lot of inaccurate information regarding this topic and many tend to blindly support it without any real evidence or in depth research and investigation.

Without a birth or marriage certificate the approximate age when Aisha married Muhammad can only be arrived at through historically related events or/and research. Here is one such example... Hadiths have been known to be very wrong and unreliable.

a) Abu Bakr’s first daughter, Asma, was born in 595, 27 years before the Hijra, the Prophet’s emigration to Medina. At the time of the Hijra, she was married to Zubayr ibn Awwam and was six-months pregnant. Her son Abdullah was born three months later in Quba while she was migrating to Medina. She died in the 73rd year of the Hijra at the age of 100; her teeth had not even fallen out. Here there is another critical piece of information. The age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma was 10 years. According to this, Aisha’s year of birth was 605 (595+10=605) and her age at the time of the Hijra was 17 (27–10=17). Since her marriage took place six, seven or eight months after the Hijra, or just after Badr, this means Aisha was 17-18 years old at that time.

https://www.amazon.com/Aisha-Companion-Scholar-Resit-Haylamaz/dp/1597842664

There are many, many more examples which establish her age to be a mature woman when married likely around 19 at consummation. Most anti Muslim sites just pick up on a single Hadith and go with that but there’s much more to it and I think we should be fair and just and not make false accusations as in this case without definitive proof and evidence.

http://aaiil.org/text/books/others/.../aishahagetimemarriageholyprophetmuhammad.pdf

So there was a porn revolution in the West, that is only because the west is more advanced both by technology and by morality.

EDIT: And you need to find the work of someone that is not an apologist. Apologists, whether Christian, Jewish, or Muslim lie for their beliefs. Various Arabic sources put the age for Aisha between 6 and 9 when she was married.

Aisha - Wikipedia

 

[Remté]

You can't be this blind:

In Iran a head scarf is mandatory, one might try to weasel out and say that is not a hijab. In the Sudan a women is on trial for not wearing one. Meanwhile in countries where it is rife there will be pressure to don one:

Woman In Sudan Refuses To Wear Hijab, Faces Flogging | HuffPost

I know that many Muslims will say that it is not compulsory, that does not mean all Muslims. This all or nothing approach to topics may be why you misinterpreted my earlier post.

That us from a Hadith not the Quran.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That us from a Hadith not the Quran.

The source was not being argued.

 

[Remté]

The source was not being argued.

Well I feel like there is some confusion. They asked you to tell where it is in the Quran you went on to say it is forced by the law - I think it is significanf to take into account where these rules come from.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well I feel like there is some confusion. They asked you to tell where it is in the Quran you went on to say it is forced by the law - I think it is significanf to take into account where these rules come from.

That was not a proper question then since the topic was Islam and not the Quran.

 

[Remté]

That was not a proper question then since the topic was Islam and not the Quran.

In which the Quran has quite a part.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In which the Quran has quite a part.

Of course, but so does the Hadith. And even nonwritten sources.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You can't be this blind:

In Iran a head scarf is mandatory, one might try to weasel out and say that is not a hijab. In the Sudan a women is on trial for not wearing one. Meanwhile in countries where it is rife there will be pressure to don one.

Using these countries as a proxy to prove there is religious compulsion does not advance your argument. Since you like news articles so much read the following:

People often conflate “hijab” and “headscarf”. Wearing the headscarf is one form of hijab, but men often forget that hijab is much more. And at the genesis of the hijab discussion, the Quran commands men to not stare at women and to not be promiscuous. The Quran 24:31 obliges men to observe modesty: “Say to the believing men that they restrain their eyes and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Surely, Allah is well aware of what they do.”


This verse rebukes forced laws on women that claim “women must cover otherwise men are distracted”. It destroys rape culture because it commands men to reform themselves first and exclusively. It demolishes complaints that what a woman is wearing is “too provocative”, whatever that means, because it flat out forbids men from gawking at women.

It’s that simple. If a guy chooses to accept Islam, Islam says he must observe hijab. The Prophet Muhammad’s directives further affirm this view. He admonished men, “Be chaste yourselves, and women will be chaste as well,” again putting the primary burden of hijab on men.


This point was again illustrated when the Prophet rode with his companion Al Fadl bin Abbas. A woman described as strikingly beautiful approached the Prophet to seek his guidance on some religious matters. Al Fadl began to stare at her because of her beauty.

Noting this, the Prophet Muhammad did not scold the woman for dressing immodestly or revealing her beauty. Instead, he “reached his hand backwards, catching Al Fadl’s chin, and turned his face to the other side so that he would not gaze at her”. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad once more established that the primary burden to observe hijab rests on men.

So if this is the case what interpretation are these countries going by? Conservative interpretations of the Qur'an, or something else?

You can't be this blind:I know that many Muslims will say that it is not compulsory, that does not mean all Muslims. This all or nothing approach to topics may be why you misinterpreted my earlier post.

This has nothing to do with all or nothing your first mistake to say that it was obligatory and there is nothing in the Qur'an that states that it is nor are all women forced to wear Hijab. That is what I'm focusing on.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Using these countries as a proxy to prove there is religious compulsion does not advance your argument. Since you like news articles so much read the following:

People often conflate “hijab” and “headscarf”. Wearing the headscarf is one form of hijab, but men often forget that hijab is much more. And at the genesis of the hijab discussion, the Quran commands men to not stare at women and to not be promiscuous. The Quran 24:31 obliges men to observe modesty: “Say to the believing men that they restrain their eyes and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Surely, Allah is well aware of what they do.”


This verse rebukes forced laws on women that claim “women must cover otherwise men are distracted”. It destroys rape culture because it commands men to reform themselves first and exclusively. It demolishes complaints that what a woman is wearing is “too provocative”, whatever that means, because it flat out forbids men from gawking at women.

It’s that simple. If a guy chooses to accept Islam, Islam says he must observe hijab. The Prophet Muhammad’s directives further affirm this view. He admonished men, “Be chaste yourselves, and women will be chaste as well,” again putting the primary burden of hijab on men.


This point was again illustrated when the Prophet rode with his companion Al Fadl bin Abbas. A woman described as strikingly beautiful approached the Prophet to seek his guidance on some religious matters. Al Fadl began to stare at her because of her beauty.

Noting this, the Prophet Muhammad did not scold the woman for dressing immodestly or revealing her beauty. Instead, he “reached his hand backwards, catching Al Fadl’s chin, and turned his face to the other side so that he would not gaze at her”. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad once more established that the primary burden to observe hijab rests on men.

So if this is the case what interpretation are these countries going by? Conservative interpretations of the Qur'an, or something else?



This has nothing to do with all or nothing your first mistake to say that it was obligatory and there is nothing in the Qur'an that states that it is nor are all women forced to wear Hijab. That is what I'm focusing on.

Nice strawman, the topic was Islam and not just the Quran.


Try again.

 

[Remté]

Nice strawman, the topic was Islam and not just the Quran.


Try again.

Islam and not just culture

 

[Subduction Zone]

Islam and not just culture

In many countries Islam and culture cannot be separated.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Nice strawman, the topic was Islam and not just the Quran.


Try again.

Not a strawman clearly my focus is on your premise that hijab is obligatory. Do you even know the definition of strawman?

Let me help you out:

 

[Remté]

In many countries Islam and culture cannot be separated.

I assume you mean are not separated by all Muslims.

That doesn't mean it's wise to argue about it as though it was all the same.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not a strawman clearly my focus is on your premise that hijab is obligatory. Do you even know the definition of strawman?

Let me help you out:

View attachment 26863

Yes, I do. And I showed that it was obligatory. You made a strawman by trying to limit it to the Koran. Islam, like it or not, is more than just the Koran.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I assume you mean are not separated by all Muslims.

That doesn't mean it's wise to argue about it as though it was all the same.

It is part and parcel of the religion. The fact that the religion is flawed is shown by the varying interpretations of it.

 

[Remté]

It is part and parcel of the religion. The fact that the religion is flawed is shown by the varying interpretations of it.

Actually that shows the flaw in the people.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So there was a porn revolution in the West, that is only because the west is more advanced both by technology and by morality.

EDIT: And you need to find the work of someone that is not an apologist. Apologists, whether Christian, Jewish, or Muslim lie for their beliefs. Various Arabic sources put the age for Aisha between 6 and 9 when she was married.

Aisha - Wikipedia

God is All Knowing and of Muhammad He states in His Holy Book..

21. You have an excellent example in the Messenger of God; for anyone who seeks God and the Last Day, and remembers God frequently.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually that shows the flaw in the people.

Since the religion is the produce of people . . .

 

[Subduction Zone]

God is All Knowing and of Muhammad He states in His Holy Book..

21. You have an excellent example in the Messenger of God; for anyone who seeks God and the Last Day, and remembers God frequently.

So what? Should I quote from the Bible of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?